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Featured LDS Blood Atonement

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    In 1954, church historian Joseph Fielding Smith taught the following about blood atonement:

    Man may commit certain grievous sins—according to his light and knowledge—that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone—so far as in his power lies—for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.... Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf.[65]

    In addition, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie agreed with Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith that "under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins."[66]...

    [T]he founders of Utah incorporated in the laws of the Territory provisions for the capital punishment of those who wil[l]fully shed the blood of their fellow men. This law, which is now the law of the State, granted unto the condemned murderer the privilege of choosing for himself whether he die by hanging, or whether he be shot, and thus have his blood shed in harmony with the law of God; and thus atone, so far as it is in his power to atone, for the death of his victim. Almost without exception the condemned party chooses the latter death. This is by authority of the law of the land, not that of the Church.[69]...
    Blood atonement remains an important doctrine within Mormon fundamentalism.[7] Within mainstream Mormonism, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) has informally opined, since 1978, that the doctrine is no longer in force. LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, speaking on behalf of church leadership, wrote in 1978 that while he still believed that certain sins are beyond the atoning power of the blood of Christ, the doctrine of blood atonement is only applicable in a theocracy.[8]Nevertheless, given its long history, up until at least 1994 potential jurors in Utah have been questioned on their beliefs concerning the blood atonement prior to trials where the death penalty may be considered. [9]
    Blood atonement - Wikipedia

    Ronnie Lee Gardner (January 16, 1961 – June 18, 2010) was an American criminal who received the death penalty for shooting a man in the face and killing him during a robbery in 1985, and was executed by a firing squad by the state of Utah in 2010.
    Ronnie Lee Gardner - Wikipedia
     
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  2. grandvizier1006

    grandvizier1006 Still a human by God's grace Supporter

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    I will say that I've never heard of a religious justification for use of the death penalty, let alone for specific methods of execution.
     
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    The idea that any blood other than the blood of Christ could atone for our sins was preposterous to me!
     
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  4. JustRachel

    JustRachel He welcomed me back! <3 Supporter

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    I praise the true God that Jesus died for me for every sin that I have committed or will commit. I am thankful that my God never changes like these folks.
     
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Blood offerings were common in the Old Testament:

    (Old Testament | Exodus 30:10)

    10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

    (Old Testament | Exodus 31:15)

    15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

    (Old Testament | Numbers 15:36)

    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

    (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 21:18 - 21)

    18 ¶ If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

    (Old Testament | Genesis 9:5 - 6)

    5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
    6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    (New Testament | Hebrews 9:22)

    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    And there are more. Jesus Christ also did a blood atonement for the sins of those who repent. However the law of sacrifice by the shedding of blood was fulfilled:

    (Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 9:19 - 20)

    19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.
    20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    According to the Torah the death penalty could be carried out by the judgment of the Sanhedrin with at least two or three credible witnesses. Without witnesses (credible ones), and without the judgment of the Sanhedrin the death penalty could not be carried out.

    These structures were put in place not to promote death and violence, but to curb death and violence in a culture in which violent retaliation was commonplace. God's people were not to be a lawless people, doing whatever seemed good to them, to take vengeance upon others--but were to be a people governed by law.

    As such God built into His Covenant with the ancient Jewish people codes of conduct so that they would be a lawful society.

    However, let us remember what Christ Himself said, that Moses permitted divorce because men's hearts were hard. Divorce was not the most excellent way which God desired for people, but was permitted. Again, divorce was governed by the rule of law so that men could not simply do whatever they wanted.

    We find in the Torah many things which, from our perspective, might seem brutal; but we are looking with the eyes of hindsight. But to understand that the first purpose of the law is to curb evil and lawlessness, we can understand apart from the law the lawlessness of men would have been far more rampant. And so we do not look to the Torah to tell us that slavery is acceptable as an institution, but rather that God expected His people to treat slaves far better than the nations of the time did.

    Likewise recall the Law says "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", this sets a limit upon what is permitted, against evil and lawlessness. But Christ our Lord has said, "You have heard it said 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth', but I tell you do not retaliate against the evil person, if anyone strikes you upon the cheek, turn and offer the other as well."

    Christ points us to the more excellent way, beyond the mere letter of the Law to the spirit of the Law, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself."

    Christ never gave His Church a sword, but indeed has said, "Put it away! ... All who live by the sword will die by the sword." And when they said, "Look, here are two swords!" the Lord rebuked them saying, "Enough of that."

    St. Paul only permits the governing authorities of the world to execute with the sword, having given clear instruction in Romans chapter 12 that the people of Christ are to repay no one evil for evil, to not seek retaliation, "Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord, I will repay", to give food and drink to one's enemies, and to live peaceably with all. The State may use the sword, but the Church is forbidden.

    There is, therefore, no room in the Holy Christian Church for the use of the sword against the wicked. St. Clement of Alexandria reminds us, "Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins." (Fragments X)

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly! How can a person who committed such a sin that blood needs to cover it possibly have blood pure enough to cover it?
     
  8. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Anyone else here read Young's original statement?

    He started it off as a rhetorical point, noting that for some sins the eternal consequences were so serious that if people understood this they'd prefer to be impaled by a javelin during the repentance process than live to old age in their sins.
     
  9. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Smith was before Young. Read the OP.
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The historic term for this in Western Christian usage is "mortal sin". Catholicism demarcates certain sins as mortal and others as venial. In the Lutheran tradition no such demarcation is made--any sin left to fester and ultimately shipwreck our faith is a mortal sin, what St. John calls a "sin that leads to death"; however we have this promise, "If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins." And so the one who has faith in Christ has their sins forgiven. Any sin can lead to death, because sin is a death-wound. But the sure and certain promise of the Gospel is that Christ came to save sinners, and the one who puts their faith in Him will never be put to shame. So that through faith in Christ there is forgiveness of all our sins. Therefore when we confess our sin, we are not adding a new work to the all-sufficent atoning work of Jesus Christ, but rather laying our sin at the foot of His cross, for what He has done He has done for all. That is why by confessing our sins our faith is encouraged and nourished by the faithful word of God, that "It is finished" and our sins are forgiven.

    The eternal consequences of our sin having been dealt with once and for all by the Son of God who gave His life as a ransom for all. Death has been defeated, our sins are washed away, He has conquered over hell and the devil. In Him is life, indeed life everlasting, peace with God, and the certain hope of resurrection.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you know what Catholics have to do if they commit a mortal sin, and what different thing they have to do if it is venial? There are no Catholics on this post to ask.

    Also for a Lutheran, what happens to a sin you've committed but don't know about? And what must you be doing for an unknown sin to be cleansed?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Repentance through Confession and Absolution.

    We have the complete and perfect forgiveness of all our sins in Christ already, as Christ died for the sins of the whole world; and so all these things are ours already through the Gospel. As broken sinners we are called to a life of repentance and faith in Jesus, and so we freely confess our sins, knowing that "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." It's impossible to give a complete account of sin, and so that is far from necessary. It suffices merely to say, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner." We have Confession and Absolution in order that we might freely confess our sin, and freely hear God's gracious and kind word to us, that we are forgiven.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture shows there is a difference between a sinner and a child of God.

    John 8:34-36
    34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

    What do you believe Jesus frees us from:

    1. the law
    2. sin
    3. penalty from sins we still commit
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    In the bible it says:
    Matthew 12:31-33 King James Version (KJV)
    31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    So, now we know there are some grievous sins that are not covered by Jesus's atoning sacrifice.

    JS says that some forms of murder are in fact sins committed against the Holy Ghost.
    BY said the same thing.
    Their solution was that a person in that position, without grace, may sacrifice himself and spill his own blood in the right mind, in order to receive some grace from Jesus, in the next world.
     
  15. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Wrong! Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the only one.

    They were both habitual liars.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    And St. Paul says, "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions." (Romans 6:11-12)

    If Christians were not sinners who struggle with sin, there would be no need for Christ and His Apostles to tell us not to sin.

    We have been set free from sin, death, hell, and the devil, and the condemnation of the law against sin no longer hangs over us. For having been born again of God by His grace we have been freely justified by God, through faith, having received the alien righteousness of Jesus Christ. So that He has justified the unjust, and clothed us with the justice of His only-begotten Son. As it is written, "Do you not know that all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ?" So that the blood of Christ covers us and all our sins, and His righteousness the white and unblemished robes upon us sinners, this is pure grace. I, a wretch and sinner, am covered, justified, and sanctified by the God who clothes me with the lily-white perfection, holiness, and righteousness of Jesus. And it is by the grace of God, keeping me in Christ, that I am saved, both now, and by the strength of God's mercy, on the final day when I must stand and give account to the One who judges the living and the dead.

    I am nothing.
    Christ is everything.
    To Christ alone be praise and glory.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  17. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That all sounds good but a Christian doesn't "struggle" with sin. We have been given a new nature, but our free will remains. So even though we could choose to sin, our nature doesn't want to.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    In that case the one who is a Christian is incapable of sin, and therefore there's no need to instruct Christians in the way of righteousness. If the Christian does not struggle against sin, if there is no struggle against the old man, then sin is a non-issue. And the Lord's command, "Go and sin no more" is pure faff.

    And yet Scripture frequently exhorts the people of God against sin. The Prophets and the Apostles frequently condemned the sinfulness of God's people, and called them to repentance and to live and abide by God's commandments.

    If you don't believe you struggle with sin, then I'd say that you don't know what sin is, and that is a very dangerous place to be.

    As it is written, "be sure your sin will find you out" (Numbers 32:23). And "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8).

    And if you say the passage in 1 John does not refer to believers, then I must ask you, who do you think John means by "we"? He writes ἐὰν εἴπωμεν "if we say", not "if they say" not "if you say" not "if that one says". He chose the second person plural for a reason, it is himself-inclusive. Us, we. If we, any of us, say this. Not "If the unbelieving", but "we", and we-who? We, he brings himself and those to whom he writes together. If we say. If we Christians say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. We are liars, and we call God a liar.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Would Jesus ask her to do something impossible?

    Of course I know what sin is. I "struggled" with it for the first 30 years I went to church. But, you see, then I truly repented from the inability to NOT sin. And that is when I was filled with the Holy Spirit, and it no longer was a struggle. I was born again.
     
  20. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are human beings. It is general. But the chapter is a series of contrasts between light and darkness. You're a smart guy, don't play dumb.
     
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