Blocking Gay Marriage?

[MooCow]

As a Christian, I am totally against gay marriage, but we live in a nation where Christianity is NOT the official religion, so Christian laws don't have any "say so" in the government.

How do I defend my stance against non-Christians?

I mean, their argument is, "Christians don't make the laws--this is a freely religious country where lawmakers pass laws based on the people's protection and desires."

Since we, indeed, are not in a Christian society, that is an almost perfectly flawless argument.

How do I refute that?

 

[atoborch]

Since we, indeed, are not in a Christian society, that is an almost perfectly flawless argument.

How do I refute that?

Blazer, ther is no such things as a perfect argument. There are many things to be siad for gay marriage, there are also many things going agnist it, breaks down the family unit, Holland stats on divorse are extremly high than before gay marriage, this futher clogs the courts, increreased transmishn of SDT's. The list goes on and on. but just do your research and i'm sure you will find plently of non biblical reason as to why gay marriage is a bad idea

 

[AndTheyShoutedJesus]

It just confuses me why people want to be gay. In my opinion, you can't be Christian and gay at the same time...humans are just screwed. Abortions, gay marriages, divorce, you name it.

 

[Bingley]

Blazer, ther is no such things as a perfect argument. There are many things to be siad for gay marriage, there are also many things going agnist it, breaks down the family unit, Holland stats on divorse are extremly high than before gay marriage, this futher clogs the courts, increreased transmishn of SDT's. The list goes on and on. but just do your research and i'm sure you will find plently of non biblical reason as to why gay marriage is a bad idea

Umm, if gays are settling down with one partner, wouldn't this tend to decrease the transmission of STDs? If that is your concern, perhaps gay marriage/civil unions is something to be encouraged?

Where did you get the Dutch statistics from?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

It just confuses me why people want to be gay. In my opinion, you can't be Christian and gay at the same time...humans are just screwed. Abortions, gay marriages, divorce, you name it.

I am astounded that anyone still thinks people want to be gay, or lesbian, come to that. People just are that way. Perhaps they are born that way, or perhaps it's due to some environmental factors, but it seems to manifest itself at an eary age. What people do about an homosexual orientation varies from person to person, but just as Christians can be heterosexual, so they can also be homosexual. Some heterosexual Christians have sex before they are married and some Christians commit adultery. Likewise some homosexuals Christians engage in sexual relationships. Some of these relationships are not promiscuous and not based on lust but on love just like the love of a devoted heterosexual couple.

Hope that helps you to understand and be less confused.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions

I am astounded that anyone still thinks people want to be gay, or lesbian, come to that.

I am equally astounded that you seem unaware that there are some who do and those who wish to experiment.

People just are that way. Perhaps they are born that way,

Not always.

Some heterosexual Christians have sex before they are married and some Christians commit adultery. Likewise some homosexuals Christians engage in sexual relationships.

True

Some of these relationships are not promiscuous and not based on lust but on love just like the love of a devoted heterosexual couple

.Some of the sinful adultery and sex before marriage is based on love and not lust, what is your point?

Hope that helps you to understand and be less confused.

No not really. Are you saying that if there is genuine love in adultery or pre-maritial relationships, sex is OK?

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Likewise some homosexuals Christians engage in sexual relationships. Some of these (sorry if I was unclear, I was not referring to any of the other relationships) relationships are not promiscuous and not based on lust but on love just like the love of a devoted heterosexual couple.

Karin

P.S. I was trying not to address the rights and wrongs of the situation. So many threads already exist to do that.

K

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I am equally astounded that you seem unaware that there are some who do and those who wish to experiment.

I think this will be a minority, espcecially for those who consider themselves homosexual for any length of time and even more especially amongst Christians.

K

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

Yes I accept that ‘Likewise some homosexuals Christians engage in sexual relationships. And some are not promiscuous.

But promiscuous means lots of sexual relationships doesn’t it. Some adultery and pre-maritial relationships are single affairs and not promiscuous so I don’t see why you mentioned homosexual relationships together with adultery and pre-maritial sexual relationships and then try introduce love only to homosexual relationships on the back of promiscuous? A pre-maritial couple can be devoted too cant they? What has the homosexual relationship to do with love and devotion and promiscuity that the adultery and pre-marital relationship hasnt and why mention the others in comparison?

Sorry but its less clear now than before.

I think this will be a minority, espcecially for those who consider themselves homosexual for any length of time and even more especially amongst Christians.

Sorry Treasure the Questions but I was astounded that you didn’t know about the minority not that it was just a minority.

 

[MooCow]

It just confuses me why people want to be gay. In my opinion, you can't be Christian and gay at the same time...humans are just screwed. Abortions, gay marriages, divorce, you name it.

Say what? Humans can't be sinners and Christians at the same time? Isn't that the whole basis of Christianity?

 

[MooCow]

I am astounded that anyone still thinks people want to be gay, or lesbian, come to that. People just are that way. Perhaps they are born that way, or perhaps it's due to some environmental factors, but it seems to manifest itself at an eary age. What people do about an homosexual orientation varies from person to person, but just as Christians can be heterosexual, so they can also be homosexual. Some heterosexual Christians have sex before they are married and some Christians commit adultery. Likewise some homosexuals Christians engage in sexual relationships. Some of these relationships are not promiscuous and not based on lust but on love just like the love of a devoted heterosexual couple.

Hope that helps you to understand and be less confused.

Karin

Perhaps some gays are born gay, but I have *some* objections to that. Obviously, homosexuality is a sin, just as lying is...but I find it hard to believe that God would SERIOUSLY disadvantage Gay Joe compared to Straight Joe.

1) Straight Joe has to deal with all non-homosexual sins (Ten Commandments)

2) Gay Joe has to deal with all non-homosexual sins, AS WELL AS fending off his homosexual desires!

It sounds to me like Gay Joe has a lot more work cut out for him than Straight Joe.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Obviously, homosexuality is a sin, just as lying is...

Homosexuality means a person has sexual desire for a person of their own sex rather than for the opposite sex. Are you saying that simply being this way is a sin? There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to say that.

If you mean homosexual acts, well then some people do think the Bible says they are sinful.

It is important to distinguish between the orientation, which people cannot help, and how they act as a result of their orientation.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Blazersax,

I would disagree with you there...
Both Straight Joe and Gay Joe have to deal with the 10 commandments except adultery. Gay Joe has to deal with same-sex sex rather than adultery but when we deny ourselves we deny. I am sure it can be just as hard for some who are unable to get married or find partners in marriage as it is for those with a homosexual orientation.

 

[ahab]

Treasure the Questions,

Sorry but to me you seem to be changing your position all the time.

It is important to distinguish between the orientation, which people cannot help, and how they act as a result of their orientation.

Well please don’t forget that there are ex-gays who are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit as well.

If you mean homosexual acts, well then some people do think the Bible says they are sinful.

Well the Bible does say that same-sex sexual acts are sinful, I thought your argument was that they were only sinful when in cultic temple prostitution.

 

[SPALATIN]

While I can't quote statistics from the UK I can say that the US CDC has stated that a majority of Homosexuals are not in committed relationships but are promiscuous. Even those who say they are committed are still promiscuous which is one of the reasons that AIDS has been on the rise. That and dirty syringe needles used by drug addicts.

 

[Bingley]

Perhaps some gays are born gay, but I have *some* objections to that. Obviously, homosexuality is a sin, just as lying is...but I find it hard to believe that God would SERIOUSLY disadvantage Gay Joe compared to Straight Joe.

1) Straight Joe has to deal with all non-homosexual sins (Ten Commandments)

2) Gay Joe has to deal with all non-homosexual sins, AS WELL AS fending off his homosexual desires!

It sounds to me like Gay Joe has a lot more work cut out for him than Straight Joe.

Congratulations, Blazer, you've identified the stumbling block for many people. There seem to be two main ways of dealing with it:

a) insist that whatever gay people may say about their experience or whatever scientists may say about the origins of homosexuality, gay people can't have been born that way because God would not put that burden on people; or
b) say that it is not a sin and that the few verses in the Bible that can be interpreted as dealing with homosexual activity have to be interpreted some other way.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Treasure the Questions,

Sorry but to me you seem to be changing your position all the time.Well please don’t forget that there are ex-gays who are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit as well.Well the Bible does say that same-sex sexual acts are sinful, I thought your argument was that they were only sinful when in cultic temple prostitution.

Ahab, I was trying to be factual and objective, and so avoided stating my point of view, sorry if you have trouble with that. I didn't think my point of view was relevant in the post I made.

I didn't see any need to mention so-called ex-gays as they are very much in the minority and again, not relevant to my post, which was dealing with a very straightforward matter: the distinciton between being homosexual and engaging in homosexual sex.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Treasure the Questions,



Thank you for your patience with my questions, you are true to your screenname alias.



But… If the statement made that ‘homosexuality is obviously a sin’ is a false statement because one needs to split the orientation from the act, then by adding that some people do not think the Bible says same-sex acts are sinful you seem to be suggesting that homosexuality may be obviously not a sin at all. Yet your links to Wink and Murphy O’Connor indicate you agree that same-sex sex is only a sin in cultic prostitution and pedastry. So you could equally have said that some believe homosexual orientation is a sin.

I didn't see any need to mention so-called ex-gays as they are very much in the minority and again, not relevant to my post, which was dealing with a very straightforward matter: the distinciton between being homosexual and engaging in homosexual sex.[/QUOTE]

In the population as a whole homosexuals are in a minority. Again, I don’t see what being in a minority has to do with it. I would have thought that the power of the Holy Spirit to transform and change us would have been most relevant to the fact that we may not be able to change or help ourselves.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Ahab, why do you want to go over old ground?

For the sake of what is being discussed here I am saying that being homosexual is certainly not a sin, and most Christians agree on that, once they've sorted out what they mean. The Bible certainly doesn't saying being homosexual is a sin. Personally I don't think the Bible definitely says that homosexual acts are a sin in themselves and it depends on the circumstances. I'm not convinced that God would condemn sexual activity within a committed, loving homosexual relationship as sinful. However, I recognise that some Christians think that the Bible does say homosexual acts are sinful under all circumstances.

That is all it seems to me to be relevant to say at this stage.

Karin

 

[praying]

It just confuses me why people want to be gay. .

I am not so sure anyone WANTS to be Gay. I don't think people wake up one day say, "Hey I want to be Gay, so I can be condemned and ridiculed, and ostricized by my family perhaps, definitely by most of society, yup that's sounds good, I want to be Gay.

I think you either are Gay or you are not.

I do think there are people who for whatever strange reason(s) claim to be Gay and aren't or experiment with Gay sex; but true attraction to the same sex both physically and emotionally; no I don't think they wake up and say yes that is the way for me.