Black Muslims in American & Americanism: Has American Religion been in competition with Islam?

Gxg (G²)

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There was a fascinating review I came across last year that stood out for me when so many were claiming that Muslims universally had no place within U.S. history - even going so far as to say that it was never the case that Muslims did significant things to help the U.S. or had any presence within the U.S. H

As said there in the article when it comes to the history of Muslims within the U.S. (as seen in
Donald Trump vs. the Founding Fathers on Muslims Coming ... - Truthdig ) for a brief excerpt:
.:

Forbidding people from entering the United States on the basis of their religion is inconsistent with the ideals of the Founding Generation of the United States of America, who explicitly mentioned Islam among the cases when they spoke of religious freedom. — Juan Cole.....



Ben Franklin, the founding father of many important institutions in Philadelphia, a key diplomat and a framer of the US Constitution, wrote in his Autobiography concerning a non-denominational place of public preaching he helped found “so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.” Here is the whole quote:

‘And it being found inconvenient to assemble in the open air, subject to its inclemencies, the building of a house to meet in was no sooner propos’d, and persons appointed to receive contributions, but sufficient sums were soon receiv’d to procure the ground and erect the building, which was one hundred feet long and seventy broad, about the size of Westminster Hall; and the work was carried on with such spirit as to be finished in a much shorter time than could have been expected. Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.


Not only did Ben Franklin not want to ban Muslims from coming to the United States, he wanted to invited them!



Thomas Jefferson wrote in his 1777 Draft of a Bill for Religious Freedom:


‘ that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right . . . ‘

As I observed on another occasion, it was Jefferson’s more bigotted opponents in the Virginia legislature who brought up the specter of Muslims and atheists being elected to it in the world Jefferson was trying to create. He was undeterred by such considerations, which should tell us something.



British social philosopher John Locke was extremely influential on the Founding Generation, and on the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. John Locke had already advocated civil rights for non-Christians, including Muslims, in his Letter on Toleration:

‘ Thus if solemn assemblies, observations of festivals, public worship be permitted to any one sort of professors [believers], all these things ought to be permitted to the Presbyterians, Independents, Anabaptists, Arminians, Quakers, and others, with the same liberty. Nay, if we may openly speak the truth, and as becomes one man to another, neither Pagan nor Mahometan, nor Jew, ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth because of his religion. The Gospel commands no such thing. ‘


Here is Jefferson again: “The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.”
– Thomas Jefferson, note in Destutt de Tracy, “Political Economy,” 1816.

More can be said besides that - and for anyone interested, there was a fascinating review I was very glad for that I appreciated - as seen here:




And for anyone taking seriously the history of slavery in the U.S. Nation, there's an extensive history of Black Muslims who endured much from others, ironically in a nation many claimed was Christian when so much of it was opposite of Christ.





It is already complicated enough for others who are Black Muslims in the U.S. since they have had to deal with a lot of discrimination from others within the Islamic community.
And of course, for more on the Arab Slave trade has been a well known fact in the Black Community when it comes to the many ways that Blacks came into slavery around the world because of what happened:


-"Islam, Africa, and the Indian Ocean World: Global and Comparative African Diaspora History" (Islam, Africa, and the Indian Ocean World - Global and Comparative African Diaspora HistoryGlobal and Comparative African Diaspora History )
-"East Africa - The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean World" ( http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/essay-east-africa.php )
--"The Afro-Iranian Community: Beyond Haji Firuz Blackface ..." ( The Afro-Iranian Community: Beyond Haji Firuz Blackface, the Slave Trade, & Bandari Music - Ajam Media Collective )
-"The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean World - Smithsonian" ( http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/index2.php )
-10 Facts About The Arab Enslavement Of Black People Not Taught in Schools - Atlanta Black Star" (10 Facts About The Arab Enslavement Of Black People Not Taught In Schools )
--"The Untold Story of Arab Slave Trade Of Africans" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9GFPmoOPg )
-"Arab Slave Trade.COM" (http://www.arabslavetrade.com/ )
For those who are Black Muslims, there has always been a HIGH awareness of life for others who are Blacks oppressed in Middle Eastern and Eastern lands and often finding themselves on their own sides - and yet they are still people who've been present with a Muslim experience in the U.S. People who've struggled, resisted assimilation and have had to deal with difficulties on IMMENSE levels.




And as another noted on the issue of slavery:

Amongst the tribal worshipers who had been caught up in the slave trade were several members of the Islamic faith. Their actual numbers are unknown. Some historians estimate anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand. Most came from inland African nations such as Sudan or Mali. Because the Islamic religion is a one-god or monotheistic religion like Christianity, Muslims could not adapt the way worshippers of tribal gods could.

One of the noted Muslim slaves included Ben-Ali, later called Job Ben Solomon. Ben-Ali was a former student from Western Sudan who became a slave in Georgia. He earned his freedom by impressing his captors with his knowledge of the Koran and his mastery of Arabic script.


At the end of the day, I am wondering why there has often seemed to be so many stereotypes of Muslims as if they've never been involved in significant developments within the history of our own nation. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....

And I have come to honestly feel that there's such a resistance toward Muslims in the U.S. because there is truly a counter-religion that has developed over the centuries that does not want to have them present. And that is Americanism.

Part of the battle going on is that many have sought to define American Patriotism as Christianity ...a very grave error since so much has happened in the name of American Nationalism that goes directly AGAINST anything Jesus Christ said or taught. Consequently, when others around the world are incensed at the many negatives done in the West, people assume they are automatically going against Christ - and thus, for them, Christianity cannot be seen (as it concerns American culture) to embrace anything pertaining to Islam since that would mean that they are somehow empowering all of the negatives done in Islam - while American Christianity is seen as flawless.


Politics have indeed become an issue intertwined with the Church when it comes to the glorification of the State and assuming that nationalism of the U.S is the same as devotion to Christ. It's interesting whenever, on a side note, to witness whenever it seems that people claim they want to be a "Christan nation" and yet ignore the Gospel itself as a whole in favor of simply having morality based in Christian principles.

And in light of things such as The American Patriot’s Bible, edited by Gerald Lee (more shared in Book Review: The Patriot's Bible (part 1) | PARSE ), it's amazing to see how others have sought to hijack the imagery of Christ to glorify the American nation.


As another noted best:

I appreciate that America recognizes my rights to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” but there is nothing distinctly Kingdom about these rights. They’re nowhere to be found in the Bible. To the contrary, as a follower of Jesus I’m called to surrender my rights to life, liberty and happiness, and instead submit to the will of God. These rights are noble on a political level, but they can get in the way of my call to seek first the Kingdom. I’m grateful America extends these rights to people, for most countries throughout history have not. But my sole allegiance is to the heavenly Kingdom that calls me to surrender my rights. If I get too concerned with an earthly country that frees me to pursue my rights, my healthy patriotism becomes idolatrous. I’ve put my country’s ideals before God.

Along similar lines, history consistently shows when we forget we’re “foreigners” and “exiles” in this world, we can begin to associate our preferred form of government or politics too closely with the Kingdom of God. Here, too, it’s crucial we follow the example of Jesus.






For many CHristians in the U.S., There can be no escaping the fact that with Muslims, we in the U.S. seem to want to erase them from the fabric of American history even when they were a significant part of it - and that is not a surprise if we have an idea or stereotype of what the Founding Fathers were about in the religion they developed. Americans venerate the founders of their nation.....and they hold their perceived or explicit opinions sacrosanct when speaking about new laws from their perspectives. However, as religions can change, it's no surprise to see why so much has shifted. Some of this with regards to American Religion has been said before as seen here:


There is a religious aspect to things that is often overlooked. Americanism is in and of itself a religion.


Many of the Founding Fathers were Unitarian in thought, including George Washington ) and yet we in the spirit of Americanism (a heresy ) will automatically celebrate all the ways God used the Founders to impact the world even though they are literally deified.

As said elsewhere, There are many good/revolutionary things that the Founding Fathers were about when it came to the development of our nation's history. Other scholars like David Barton have spoken on that before and I am glad for it:



I remembered where I checked out some of Barton's material before since we had to study it in highschool....specifically his book "Original Intent." The Founding Fathers were often noted for being FAR from representing the people since many times the people were outright ignored. Especially with slavery. Granted, there were indeed those who were Black Founding Fathers and even that much has often not been represented in history the way it was......despite what was present in the history of the nation. - as other scholars like David Barton speaking in-depth on the matter.

With Barton's interview, some of the other things I really enjoyed hearing from the man were near the end when it came to him noting why believers need to be involved in the Civil Arena in light of what Christ said in Luke 19:13 on learning to occupy till He comes. ...and showing the Founding Fathers who supported it. Moreover, there were plenty of nations around the world using Christian language since it was the national religion of many countries (i.e British Empire), even though what was done in the name of Christ (as with imperialism and colonialism, etc) was not godly.

Furthermore, one of the main things I had some serious concern with was the reality of where the Founding Fathers were clearly into a lot of things, despite all Christian references, that were not Biblical...and in showing Biblical references in what they did, I thought it'd be beneficial to show everything else at some point of where many things did contaminate much of what they did. Specifically, their focus on FreeMasonry and the other issues done such as mistreatment of American Indians in a myriad of cruel ways. I don't think there's ever any way that such things can be white-washed away as being less than evil/condemning....

Additionally, the treatment of Native Americans is something that can never be taken lightly when it comes to the ways that they were often dismissed/not respected or represented well (more here and here).


I have noted the same before to one of my friends when he was talking on how the U.S was originally "Christian" - and I have sharply disagreed for a myriad of ways that one cannot be historically honest/ignore the ways that a lot of history with the Founding Fathers was not godly (more shared in #75, #27 , #56 , #61 #63 and #110 ).



From the beginning of our nation's history, what has been occurring is others realizing what has been practiced within the world of Christianity has really been a combination of Christian concepts and other Non-Christian ideas. More so Moralistic Therapeutic Deism

In our times, there does seem to be a return to Deism by many and it's not surprising in light of how often those in the history of the U.S have been propped up by others as examples of Christianity when they were in fact opposite of that.

For reference:
Psywar: The Real Battlefield is the Mind


George Washington was a freemason and a deist. He wouldn’t take communion with his wife. ...and he was also what's known as a Unitarian ..and due to his Unitarian views, held stances that supported both Christian principles and non-Christian beliefs such as Deism and other things. For reference:


One can also go here and here. John Adams spoke harshly at times about Christianity and religion in general in his private correspondence. He was a Christian Unitarian that believed the church service was good for everyone because it promoted morals and values among the masses. Thomas Jefferson, as a Diest, went so far to deny the divinity of Christ. He even created his own compilation of Jesus’ life from the gospels, which he entitled, “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.” He removed all evidence of the “supernatural” for a presentation of Jesus as a good moral teacher who is only to be admired, not worshipped. And there are other examples of where things they did/began were FAR from being what the Lord had in mind with Biblical laws



In example, there are pictures showing the Founding Fathers as gods..which is not surprising seeing that most of the Founding Fathers were very much into Freemasonry. There was one statue I remember seeing of George Washington IN D.C that had him in the form of a Greek GOD when I was visiting the place back in 2009. Seemed like they were trying to express the regal nature the president seemed to have and take it to another level, just as others have done often..

070730_thisdayjuly31.jpg


wz1.jpg


Additionally, the dome of the Capitol features in its occulus an incredibly significant painting that reveals the philosophical, spiritual and political aims of the Founding Fathers. Right in the very centre of the cast iron dome in the U.S Capitol is a painting of George Washington, ascended to the pantheon of ancient greek deities.






Astonishingly poor theology for 'one nation under God', but evidence of the high esteem George was held in by his 19th century successors. The building was completed (from memory) in the 1820s.

And there are many others besides that.

It's not hidden. I'm surprised many more don't talk on the ways the Founding Fathers were often deified multiple times and no one said anything on it for centuries. I'd wager that many don't tend to look for it due to assumptions they've already accepted on the Founding Fathers being fully dedicated believers and soldiers for Christ as has often been said by others in the Religious Right and others who had an idea of Christianity in mind which they supported/felt the FOunders did as well ( with the use of Biblical Language/scripture in their speeches being what influences others to see the history of the nation as being Christian in origin ), thus causing confirmation bias and people seeing what they have already been trained to see/zoom in on....even when the other darker aspects of what were present in the nation's founding/consistently growing are out in the open...from the monuments of our capitol to the things presidents swear into before taking office (like Bohemian Grove, if not aware of it - very dark reality )...and a lot of other mess.

So the religious history and their success is what leads to them being venerated.​

Washington states in his Farewell Address, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

And as said elsewhere on that subject, for a brief excerpt:

The roots of Unitarian doctrine, though deeply entrenched in the rationalism of the Enlightenment, can be best explained by one of its earliest supporters. The Reverend Charles Chauncy of Boston became one of the earliest proponents of rationalism and intellectualism. These beliefs ended up putting him at odds with one of the heroes of the Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, who supported a passionate and emotional communion with Deity. In his pamphlet,Seasonable Thoughts on the State of Religion in New England, Chauncy lays out the case for intellectualism in religion. In response to the explosion of emotionalism brought on by the Great Awakening, Chauncy writes:





“Men may open to us the Temper of their Minds, in a Relation of their Experiences: But even here, we are liable to be deceived. They may be mistaken about their own State; and what is worse, may represent Things different from what they really are: so at the best we only judge in this case upon Supposition. And as there is so much Hypocrisy in the World, it would be but Prudence to hear Men’s Declarations, respecting themselves with a heedful caution. It may perhaps be a Truth here, as well as in other Cases, Actions speak louder than Words.”
...Even contemporary Christian Nationalists follow the same formula as earlier Christian zealots in their attacks on Unitarianism, which they see as nothing more than Deism in disguise. Unitarian doctrine, however, was not merely an infusion of Deist ideology, but was an incorporation of both Christian and Deist principles. As the Reverend William Ellery Channing stated:



Let us learn the distinction between Trinitarianism and Unitarianism. Many use these words without meaning, and are very zealous about sounds. Some suppose that Trinitarianism consists in believing in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But we all believe in these; we all believe that the Father sent the Son, and gives, to those that ask, the Holy Spirit. We are all Trinitarians, if this is the belief in Trinitarianism. But it is not. The Trinitarian believes that the one God is three distinct persons, called Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and he believes that each is the only true God, and yet that the three are only one God. This is Trinitarianism. The Unitarian believes that there is but one person possessing supreme Divinity, even the Father. This is the great distinction; let it be kept steadily in view…I am persuaded, that under these classes of high Unitarians many Christians ought to be ranked who call themselves orthodox and are Trinitarians (Reverend William Channing, 1798. Quoted in Sydney Ahlstrom, A Religious History of the American People, 395).
Reverend Channing further explains the rationale of Unitarian thought when he writes:



It seems to me of singular importance that Christianity should be recognized and presented in its true character…The low views of our religion, which have prevailed too long, should give place to this highest one. They suited perhaps darker ages. But they have done their work, and should pass away. Christianity should now be disencumbered and set free…It should come forth from the darkness and corruption of the past in its own celestial splendour, and in its divine simplicity. It should be comprehended as having but one purpose, the perfection of human nature, the elevation of men into nobler beings (Reverend William Channing, The Essence of the Cristian Religion, 1798. Quoted in Sydney Ahlstrom, A Religious History of the American People, 399).
While Reverend Channing was a more Christian-leaning Unitarian, his statements help to illustrate the fact that Unitarianism was an incorporation of both Deist and Christian philosophy. The fact that Channing openly questions Trinitarian doctrine is of note because it illustrates the fact that Unitarianism relied heavily on the rationalism of enlightened Deism. This explains why Unitarians such as James Madison were so vehemantly opposed to orthodox Trinitarian Christianity, but not opposed to the doctrines of Christ. In his Memorial and Remonstrance, Madison openly attacks Christianity as it had been practiced, but also defends the “pure” religion of Christ:



experience witnesseth that eccelsiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation.During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
This understanding of Unitarian doctrine also helps us to understand why George Washington refused to take Communion, but still regularly attended the Episcopal Church. As Sydney Ahlstrom states, “For the Unitarian…the Lord’s Supper was regarded more and more as neither a sacramental ‘means of grace’ nor a ‘converting ordinance,’ but as a simple memorial”(Religious History, 391).



For the orthodox Christian, however, Communion still remained an extremely important ordinance and expression of public faith and piety. For Washington to omit such a practice from his personal religious practices is a perfect illustration of his Unitarian leanings. In conclusion, it it important to note that each of our key founders -- Madison, Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Monroe, Hamilton, Adams -- were profoundly impacted by Unitarian philosophy. This explains why these men were able to both embrace AND reject Christian doctrines. Unitarianism was the key religion of our mainstream founders, and it allowed them the flexibility to believe -- or disbelieve -- as much or as little of the Christian faith as they personally saw fit.
That said, again, if anyone has any thoughts about the practice of Islam within America and American religion, I'd love to hear thoughts. This is not a thread about discussing the negatives of Muslims in America if only wanting to highlight moments of violence. It is also NOT a thread for any bashing of Muslims - just as it is NOT a thread for any bashing of Christians. It is a thread for discussing positive contributions of Muslims within the history of the U.S., their experiences as discussed by the Founding Fathers, and addressing why people TODAY seem ignorant of what the Founders have said on Muslims.

Blessings :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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My first real notice of Islam in American history was the knocking down of the Twin Towers in NYC. I liked Islam a lot better before I noticed it.
You would need to go back, then, and get a real notice of Islam in American History just like others had to do when having centuries of Christian history since the Puritans, from Massacres to Genocides to Black Wallstreet, Rosewood, Jim Crow, Manifest Destiny, etc.....all of that in American history and the effects STILL felt. Of course there were plenty of Christians before then having nothing to do with those events, just as the Twin Towers had zero to do with the majority of Muslims around the world who universally condemned it and have stood against it - so again, if being in this thread, the focus is on Muslims in history and according to the Founders.

If you do not want to discuss the contributions of Muslims to American history in positive development, then of course one does not have to comment in a thread dedicated to that.

It is not for quips about Muslims that do not deal historically with who Muslims were. Start with the Civil Rights era alone/go backwards from there if wanting a real discussion on Muslims, as it was from that era I saw real Islam played out - starting with Malcolm X.


GG
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malcolm-x-quote.jpg

There's also r Muhammad Ali and many others standing against the Vietnam War and many other evils pertaining to racial injustice. Being Afro-Latino, I take that seriously and anyone not seeing that really had zero notice of Islam. We can also go with St. Francis of Assisi for further historical focus - but of course, that would not be American history with Muslims.

The Emergence of Islam in the African-American Community is something that many are not truly aware of when seeing how it evolved over centuries ... but they've been present. My grandmother was Muslim and I've loved witnessing to them/growing with others in that world - and studying the Quran, no - we NEVER were for the foolishness of others supporting the Twin Towers in the name of Islam (just as we never were for Christians supporting genocide of Indigenous peoples before and today as a sign of God's 'blessing' or many other evils done in the name of a 'Christian Nation')....

And for basics:

As the world remembers Muhammad Ali, let us also remember his Muslimfaith and the long history of Muslims in the U.S., as described in this ZinnEducation Project article by Alison Kysia. Also read, "Muhammad Ali’s Funeral Was His Last Act of Resistance" by Dave Zirin:http://bit.ly/22Zof0o



A People’s History of Muslims in the United States
By Alison Kysia When I teach history related to Islam or Muslims in the United States, I begin by asking students what names they associate with these…
ZINNEDPROJECT.ORG


Mohammad Ali (a part of Sunni Islam) always comes to mind when seeing how he has carried Himself....and without him, a lot of Blacks would be dead or maimed by now. His faith did not allow him to do otherwise:



As he said when he took the Weight, "Some people thought I was a hero. Some people said that what I did was wrong. But everything I did was according to my conscience. I wasn’t trying to be a leader. I just wanted to be free. And I made a stand all people, not just black people, should have thought about making, because it wasn’t just black people being drafted. The government had a system where the rich man’s son went to college, and the poor man’s son went to war. Then, after the rich man’s son got out of college, he did other things to keep him out of the Army until he was too old to be drafted." (‪#‎MuhammadAli‬)

Equal fights...

And of course, many have zero clue about where there were MANY like ‪#‎MuhammadAli‬ that many people may not know about today hat fought to put justice ahead of celebrity. .....like with the Ali Summit.


"On June 4, in 1967, Muhammad Ali and a group of leading African American athletes held a press conference in Cleveland, Ohio after Ali announced he was refusing to serve in the U.S. military in Vietnam. Dubbed the Ali summit,the meeting happened roughly a month after Ali refused to step forward at an induction ceremony in Houston, TX after being drafted into the US military. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Jim Brown, Bill Russell, and Carl Stokes were some of the athletes and political figures involved in the meeting."

Muhammad Ali (born Jan. 17, 1942), world champion boxer and outspoken advocate for human rights. "If I thought going to war would bring freedom and equality to twenty-two million of my people, they wouldn’t have to draft me. I’d join tomorrow. But I either have to obey the laws of the land or the laws of Allah. I have nothing to lose by standing up and following my beliefs. We’ve been in jail for four hundred years.” More info about Ali: http://bit.ly/1CyyECU andhttp://bit.ly/1CyyE5U Image: In 1967, some of the nation’s top black athletes came to Cleveland to support Muhammad Ali's refusal to be drafted into the U.S. Army: Front row: Bill Russell, Ali, Jim Brown, andKareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). Back row: Mayor Carl Stokes, Walter Beach, Bobby Mitchell, Sid Williams, Curtis McClinton,Willie Davis, Jim Shorter and John Wooten/AP





And besides Ali, A lot of us have grown up with things within our culture that we appreciate - from music to literature to sports and many other things. And yet we never stopped to consider how much they came from groups that the media has often seemed to try and spread a negative image on. It is unfortunate - but I do pray that others begin to have a greater awareness of their neighbors in the Muslim world and gain an even greater zeal with reaching out to who Muslims are.





Nation's Zirin: 'Scary to See' an Elite Athlete Like Brady Is ...
View attachment 168449
www.breitbart.com/.../nations-zirin-scary-to-see-an-elit...
Dec 17, 2015
On Thursday's “Outside the Lines” on ESPN, sports editor for The Nation magazine Dave Zirin discussed Muslim ...

It was surprising to me when seeing how many of the things I grew up enjoying had their roots in Muslim heritage. I was surprised, for example, to find out how some of my favorite Hip Hop artists (like Mos Def) were actually Muslim - and then when investigating further, the links got even more direct.


I thought it was only a few, but the number of influential Muslim celebrities took me by
surprise. I did not know, for example, that Shaq was Muslim.



shaq.jpg

But Shaquille O’Neal is an Islam convert.


And to be clear, loving sports in the U.S. and seeing how some of my favorite athletes (like Kareem Abdul Jabbar) have been very direct on the issue when so many celebrated him until all of the anti-Muslim stereotypes, I do think we in the U.S. need to begin reconsidering a lot of things.

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kareem_abdul_jabar.jpg


 
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Chesterton

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That said, again, if anyone has any thoughts about the practice of Islam within America and American religion, I'd love to hear thoughts.

Apparently that's not true.
If you do not want to discuss the contributions of Muslims to American history in positive development, then of course one does not have to comment in a thread dedicated to that.

Make up your mind. Either you'd love to hear thoughts, or you'd love to hear only positive thoughts.

BTW, my dad was in the fight business and knew Ali. Don't believe everything you hear and see in the media.

BTW, what's really amazing is how many Muslim killers were inspired by American rap by the likes of Mos Def.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Apparently that's not true.
f.
Positive contributions was the focus, as said directly in the OP. You avoided that and avoided history of actual Muslims in the U.S. over 300 yrs to focus on a negative - so you show you don't want to actually address Muslim history.

Make up your mind. Either you'd love to hear thoughts, or you'd love to hear only positive thoughts.
As you are unable to actually address the OP as it was stated clearly, make up your mind: Either be respectful to the TOPIC or please be respectful enough to avoid commenting since nothing you said addressed the thread.

As was stated in the OP plainly:



....
At the end of the day, I am wondering why there has often seemed to be so many stereotypes of Muslims as if they've never been involved in significant developments within the history of our own nation. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....

And I have come to honestly feel that there's such a resistance toward Muslims in the U.S. because there is truly a counter-religion that has developed over the centuries that does not want to have them present. And that is Americanism.
It was said directly that the goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it..

If you cannot do that, you already started out disrespecting the subject of the OP. Even outside of the positive, it's HARDLY discussing Muslims if your reference point if only those involved in the Twin Towers - SOMETHING that Muslims worldwide have consistently noted to be herectical/apostate and condemned overwhelmingly.

By your logic, we can start addressing Orthodox Christian history to anyone asking by referencing the Bosnian Genocide that was waged against Muslims by Christians (AND that has sadly been a grave evil many Christians refuse to come to terms with) - and of course, the extensive history of Christians in the U.S. in their attrocities toward many in God's Name/Christ's name as well. But of course, that would be simplistic. It's the same bringing up the Twin Towers in a thread discussing the AMERICAN Founders and their thoughts on Islam.

Thus, focus on the topic as the OP discussed please..


As said before, Being Black in the U.S, the history of Islam and Christianity has been VERY complicated...if seeing the series on Roots, by Alex Haley, winner of the Pulitzer Prize...his book shook the nation in the 1970s and expressed what many African Americans had felt for a long time. It was TRULY powerful - and I thought it was very interesting since the tribe Kunte Kinte came from was the Mandinka ....and the Mandinka were horse warriors as well as Muslim. The original series by Levar Burton was intense enough - and yes, growing up with a Muslim grandmother at one point and being in a Christian home, it hit home seeing it.




B99399436Z.1_20160529191123_000_GGNV8J76.1-0.jpg

And again, if wanting to actually discuss Islam in its contributions to the U.S, start with the Civil Rights era alone/go backwards from there if wanting a real discussion on Muslims, as it was from that era I saw real Islam played out - be it with Malcolm X or Muhammad Ali and many others standing against the Vietnam War and many other evils pertaining to racial injustice. Being Afro-Latino, I take that seriously and anyone not seeing that really had zero notice of Islam. We can also go with St. Francis of Assisi for further historical focus - but of course, that would not be American history with Muslims.

The Emergence of Islam in the African-American Community is something that many are not truly aware of when seeing how it evolved over centuries ... but they've been present.
BTW, my dad was in the fight business and knew Ali. Don't believe everything you hear and see in the media.
Others were in the fight business as well and knew the man. What matters is what is consistent with what the man actually said - thus it is a MOOT point when avoiding what the man actually did for many all over the world and the way he helped out many during the era of the Draft in Vietnam - alongside multiple other things besides that as pertains to helping the poor, advocating on issues of social injustice, rescuing hostages in Iraq (as well as the time Ali visited Israel to arrange for the freeing of some 700 Shiite Muslim prisoners in the Atlit detention camp) and other things besides that. That is verified and consistent - so don't expect others to believe what you say if you cannot even address what others actually DID in public/private.

13335664_1722200118019814_5459144376219301171_n.jpg



This is something that made a HUGE world of difference for many minorities in the U.S - a struggle that many other Muslims were a part of. If having no awareness (or concern) for the experiences of others within African American culture, I can understand. That is a cultural barrier that is difficult enough for others to cross. Nonetheless, the reality is that others concerned for people in the U.S. will acknowledge the positive contributions of Muslims - and those that do not have no concern for people in everyday life in the U.S.

And I am thankful for other Christians pointing that issue out directly.


And for the Christians who were impacted by Muslims - included Dr. Martin Luther King - I will honor them..



This is not something limited to a U.S. Context. Others I grew up loving such as Brother Andrew (of the book "God Smuggler" discussing his missionary work behind the Iron Curtain when it was still up and "Secret Believers" showing his work within the Islamic world) has had the same mindset at so many points when challenging others see others through the eyes of Christ:

-Brother Andrew Webcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiLslz7ARLw )

Love it when he was asked for his viewpoint on how to see things and he shared the following: "Spell Islam as I Sincerely Love All Muslims. Then may you really love them - not superficially - and want to help them; crossing the street, helping with their language, going shopping for them, helping to find a job or adjust to the new culture. If we help them we earn friendship and can begin to communicate in words, but only after we’ve earned the right to their attention. I see every Muslim as a God seeker, and they pay a lot more in the seeking of God than we do as Christians. We all seek him casually while the Bible says only when you seek Him diligently will you find Him. We don’t like that word ‘diligently’. We want to keep things casual, take it easy, Andrew - don’t be a fanatic. And I say wait a minute, it’s much easier to cool down a fanatic than to wake up a corpse. Let’s get on with it, be radical and take some risks!" (We Are Worship | Brother Andrew on why it's much easier to calm down a radical than wake up a corpse )

Growing up seeing Muslims radically different than the stereotypes, it is something we need to take seriously.

If you are unable to actually deal with Muslims in a manner that does not focus on stereotypes, then the real question is "Why are you unable to actually work with/deal with Muslims in real life and unable to love them as Jesus said - if claiming to serve Christ who loved others in a variety of places?" - Luke 10:25-39 on the GOOD Samaritan, dude. And since yoy brought up 9/11 and the Twin Towers as your definition of Islam, it needs to be stated in no uncertain terms that it does not represent Muslims universally.


One can start with actual statistics ..and accurate reporting agencies. You may feel free to dig through them and there are hundreds more besides that after working with Muslims for years. Fo
-"Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world ..- Pew Research" (Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world ).


And for others:

-"Muslim Publics Share Concerns about Extremist Groups | Pew Research" (vhttp://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/ )
-Non-Muslims Carried Out More than 90% of All Terrorist Attacks in America" (http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-mu...0-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619 )
-"Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced Islamic State,..Media Matters" ( Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced Islamic State, But Conservative Media Won't Tell You That )​

-"In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS - Pew Research" ( In nations with significant Muslim populations, much disdain for ISIS )
-"The World’s Muslims: Unity and Diversity - Pew Research" ( The World’s Muslims: Unity and Diversity ).
As said there directly in "Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism Mainstream and Moderate Attitudes - Pew Research" ( Muslim Americans: No Signs of Growth in Alienation or Support for Extremism ) from 2011....


There are numerous imans/leaders in the Islamic world (including the UK) who've condemned ISIS AS Well as other groups showing Radical Islam (since before 9/11) and called it out in many cases - with the Quran itself condemning ISIS There are actually several already - doesn't take that long to investigate, just as it doesn't take long seeing the extensive history of Muslims who protected Christians (at their own expense) or Christians in the early Church who won the heart of Muslims by walking in peace (if taking the early Church seriously in what they noted). For basics, there is Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims. But of course, there are many others..

-"The Modern Jihadists: Khawarij or Mujahideen? - Sh. Dr. Yasir Qadhi" ( The Modern Jihadists: Khawarij or Mujahideen? - Sh. Dr. Yasir Qadhi )
-"Muslim Leaders condemn ISIS" (Muslim Leaders condemn ISIS )
--"UK IMAMS AGAINST ISIS" ( UK IMAMS AGAINST ISIS )
-"The Biblical and Quranic Approach to Peace & Violence" Shabir Ally (Is Islam Violent? - Dr. Shabir Ally )
-"The Biblical and Qur'anic Approach to Peace and Violence By Imam Shabir Ally" ( The Biblical and Qur'anic Approach to Peace and Violence By Imam Shabir Ally )
-"Are all the peaceful verses in the Qur'an abrogated by war verses? - Dr. Shabir Ally" ( Are all the peaceful verses in the Qur'an abrogated by war verses? - Dr. Shabir Ally )
-"Does the Qur'an promote Violence (Surah 9:5) ? - Dr. Shabir Ally" (Does the Qur'an promote Violence (Surah 9:5) ? - Dr. Shabir Ally )
-"Is the Caliphate a Mandate? A Response to ISIS - Dr. Shabir Ally ( 1 of 2 )" ( Is the Caliphate a Mandate? A Response to ISIS - Dr. Shabir Ally ( 1 of 2 ) )
-"Is the Caliphate a Mandate? A Response to ISIS - Dr. Shabir Ally ( 2 of 2 )" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBUaiwERT4 )
-"Q&A: Applicability Through-out Time of Violent Verses in Quran - Dr. Shabir Ally" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhLgyzDIRuU )
--Quran-Islam.org - True Islam ( http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_concept_of_jihad_(P1360).html )
--"Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism" ( http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html )
---"Dr. Shabir Ally refutes Ayaan Hirsi Ali's new book " Heretic "" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwYeoz3VI4 )
--"Does the Qur'an promote Violence (Surah 9:5) ? - Dr. Shabir Ally" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMsUbsOr80M )​

On the basis of the Quran alone, it'd not be too terribly difficult to condemn reckless violence/terrorism just as it'd not be difficult within the NT alone noting why it was not wrong for slaves to seek out their freedom/fight against oppression (Even while others used direct quotes in Philemon or Colossians or Romans 13 to support advocacy for slavery) - it is about context. ....and not stereotype. There are still plenty of Christians unfortunately supporting/advocating the KKK and U.S. Terrorism in the name of Patriotism - but it is not the definition for all. The same goes for Muslims and this has been discussed before repeatedly.

One is entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts


BTW, what's really amazing is how many Muslim killers were inspired by American rap by the likes of Mos Def.
There are plenty of Christian Domestic terrorists inspired by Rock & Roll....and of course, they were also inspired by T.V Shows as well. Again, it's a moot point without a shred of verification on your part as if American Rap caused others to become Muslims Killers - but then again, if focused on a stereotype, an argument will be reaching.

Again, please address the topic of the OP if you're going to choose to be present within it since the topic was more than clear. I do not intend on repeating myself on the matter....
 
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Chesterton

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Positive contributions was the focus, as said directly in the OP. You avoided that and avoided history of actual Muslims in the U.S. over 300 yrs to focus on a negative - so you show you don't want to actually address Muslim history.

You said "if anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them". If you only wanted to hear positive propaganda you should have said that.
 
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You said "if anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them". If you only wanted to hear positive propaganda you should have said that.
And again, it is evident you are attempting to derail if avoiding what the OP said plainly. Your logic was never pertaining to Muslims when assuming 9/11 was the definition of Muslims - as that is an act of propaganda. If you want someone to do the same to you in noting the Bosnian Genocide and other events with Christians killing Muslims in the millions defines Orthodoxy in your faith, then your logic is applicable.

But to do so would be a stereotype. The same goes for Muslims - and as said before, either be respectful to the TOPIC or please be respectful enough to avoid commenting since nothing you said addressed the thread. topic..

As was stated in the OP plainly:





At the end of the day, I am wondering why there has often seemed to be so many stereotypes of Muslims as if they've never been involved in significant developments within the history of our own nation. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....


And I have come to honestly feel that there's such a resistance toward Muslims in the U.S. because there is truly a counter-religion that has developed over the centuries that does not want to have them present. And that is Americanism.
It was said directly that the goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it..

I will say again what was stated directly in the OP:

. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....

If you cannot do that, that's fine. However, choosing to willfully come into a thread only to discuss stereotypes that don't even deal with 400 yrs of history with Muslims in the U.S. is not dealing with Muslims. It also avoids addressing in honesty where Muslims have never even come close to universally accepting 9/11 - SO TO bring it up is a red herring. And you already started out disrespecting the subject of the OP. This is the Last time I am saying it before going further since it is intentionally derailing, both in ignoring what the OP said AND ignoring when the author of the post has said plainly what the thread was about because you overlooked what was stated.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Again, please address the topic of the OP if you're going to choose to be present within it since the topic was more than clear. I do not intend on repeating myself on the matter....
I would love to address the topic but I ain't sure what it is......all I get is some long rambling kinda dissertation that bounces from subject to subject. How about reducing your question (since that is the requirement of the SoP) to just a short paragraph?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I would love to address the topic but I ain't sure what it is......all I get is some long rambling kinda dissertation that bounces from subject to subject. How about reducing your question (since that is the requirement of the SoP) to just a short paragraph?
Respectfully, if wanting to address the topic, then you could've dealt with the title and the article in the OP. We already know you have a history of not liking Muslims due to your belief that they all kill Christians (for anyone doing a basic search review on your posts) so it is not really sincere saying one would love to address a topic when basics are avoided.

Your stance was already known before commenting - and all that was given in your response was a quip that had little to do with the topic and more in the spirit of an attack on style (distraction) rather than a real addressing of the topic. Thus again, do not be disingenuous with the comments when speaking - if you're going to comment, the topic has been made clear.

Please do not come into a thread bouncing in attempt to do jest. If you don't care for the history of experience with Muslims in America - and to get more specific, if you don't care about the 300-400yr experience of African American Muslims dealing with slavery in the U.S, do not come into a thread dedicated to engaging that. If you do not care about Muslims who helped to save America and who worked with Christians in the U.S historically, please do not insult their memories by coming into the thread speaking...

I will again clarify since I do believe one could have done so immediately from the jump in addressing the first article - as seen here when it came to noting the history of Muslims in the U.S and the history of their religion according to the Founders. That was included in the TITLE of the OP as well - and as noted in the OP, since the focus is on the development of Americanism in the U.S./U.S Nationalism and how it often competes with Islam in the minds of others, both are an issue. Of course, again, you could've skipped past all of that and dealt with the first article.

This was stated before directly:

There was a fascinating review I came across last year that stood out for me when so many were claiming that Muslims universally had no place within U.S. history - even going so far as to say that it was never the case that Muslims did significant things to help the U.S. or had any presence within the U.S. H

As said there in the article when it comes to the history of Muslims within the U.S. (as seen in
Donald Trump vs. the Founding Fathers on Muslims Coming ... - Truthdig ).
.:

Forbidding people from entering the United States on the basis of their religion is inconsistent with the ideals of the Founding Generation of the United States of America, who explicitly mentioned Islam among the cases when they spoke of religious freedom. — Juan Cole.....



Ben Franklin, the founding father of many important institutions in Philadelphia, a key diplomat and a framer of the US Constitution, wrote in his Autobiography concerning a non-denominational place of public preaching he helped found “so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.”

‘ Thus if solemn assemblies, observations of festivals, public worship be permitted to any one sort of professors [believers], all these things ought to be permitted to the Presbyterians, Independents, Anabaptists, Arminians, Quakers, and others, with the same liberty. Nay, if we may openly speak the truth, and as becomes one man to another, neither Pagan nor Mahometan, nor Jew, ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth because of his religion. The Gospel commands no such thing. ‘
Here is Jefferson again: “The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens.”
– Thomas Jefferson, note in Destutt de Tracy, “Political Economy,” 1816.
More can be said besides that ....


For many CHristians in the U.S., There can be no escaping the fact that with Muslims, we in the U.S. seem to want to erase them from the fabric of American history even when they were a significant part of it - and that is not a surprise if we have an idea or stereotype of what the Founding Fathers were about in the religion they developed. Americans venerate the founders of their nation.....and they hold their perceived or explicit opinions sacrosanct when speaking about new laws from their perspectives. However, as religions can change, it's no surprise to see why so much has shifted.
That said, again, if anyone has any thoughts about the practice of Islam within America and American religion, I'd love to hear thoughts.
As said in the OP plainly:





At the end of the day, I am wondering why there has often seemed to be so many stereotypes of Muslims as if they've never been involved in significant developments within the history of our own nation. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....and have noted how often the things said about them are not consistent with Muslim communities in how they live life - and for the many amazing and beautiful Muslims around the world and in our nation, it is a privilege to honor them for their sacrifices and all they do.....



And I have come to honestly feel that there's such a resistance toward Muslims in the U.S. because there is truly a counter-religion that has developed over the centuries that does not want to have them present. And that is Americanism.
I will say again what was stated directly in the OP:

. I do hope that anyone choosing to enter into this thread would be willing to do so in order to deal with the subject of showing how not all stereotypes about Muslims are true. The goal of the thread is simple discussion on how Muslims simply impact all of us in everyday life in positive ways we're rarely aware of it....
Any comments made counter to the OP are a derail and will be taken to the mods. It is hoped that you or anyone else NOT wanting to discuss the positive contributions to Muslims can please be respectful.
 
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Eryk

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If we define a group of people by the worst deeds of its worst members, then we are inventing something to satisfy the urge to hate something. We are thinking about editorial cartoons instead of real complex people and we are being manipulated by fear and ignorance. And then we're the bad guys.

Can Muslims in America have secular values? Of course. Many do. All we have to do is be Americans and respect their freedom of conscience. Even if, for the sake of argument, the worst paranoid nightmare came true and every Muslim in America were radicalised, they would still be just one group among others. The wealthy have a hegemony that no religion will ever have in this country.
 
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smaneck

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My first real notice of Islam in American history was the knocking down of the Twin Towers in NYC. I liked Islam a lot better before I noticed it.

Yet the director of the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center (CTC), and the leader of the hunt for bin Laden, converted to Islam.
 
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smaneck

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Converted? I thought he was always Muslim.

Nope. He converted shortly after his marriage to a Muslim woman. And I believe that was after 9-11. Unlike what is depicted in Zero Dark Thirty, he doesn't keep a a prayer rub in his office, though he does carry around prayer beads.

And while we are on the topic of Zero Dark Thirty, contrary to the movie, the information about Bin Laden's courier was provided by detainees before they were tortured, not afterwards.
 
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Chesterton

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Nope. He converted shortly after his marriage to a Muslim woman. And I believe that was after 9-11. Unlike what is depicted in Zero Dark Thirty, he doesn't keep a a prayer rub in his office, though he does carry around prayer beads.

And while we are on the topic of Zero Dark Thirty, contrary to the movie, the information about Bin Laden's courier was provided by detainees before they were tortured, not afterwards.
And these things have something to do with the post of mine you quoted, or you are just in the mood to pick a fight? :)
 
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Chesterton

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It is pretty clear to everyone here that you came to this thread to start a fight.

No that should not be clear to anyone.

Gxg started out saying "There was a fascinating review I came across last year that stood out for me when so many were claiming that Muslims universally had no place within U.S. history...". After I made my comment he edited his OP to say things such as "This is not a thread about discussing the negatives of Muslims in America if only wanting to highlight moments of violence." It's been long enough I don't know in what other ways he may have edited the OP, but I remember that much.

And yes, I highlighted a moment of violence (before he said that). I did so because it was pertinent. His OP, though long and a bit rambling on other things, was about Islam in American history. My words: "My first real notice of Islam in American history was the knocking down of the Twin Towers in NYC." This is factual and dispassionate truth, and I'm sure it speaks for a lot of Americans. Of course growing up in the '70's I was familiar with the violence associated with Islam overseas, and I even read a book circa 1990 that predicted the great clash of civilizations which began in 2001, and I thought the book was far-fetched until the clash actually began. Again, my first real notice of Islam's involvement in American history is violence. And I also said I don't like Islam, which statement I also stand by.

Sharing my honest thoughts and feelings in this forum, is not merely trying to pick a fight.

I honestly don't like fights. I'd much prefer everyone just agree with me, but this is the internet, and someone's always wrong on it. :p
 
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smaneck

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No that should not be clear to anyone.

It was clear to Gxg and it is clear to me. I'm sure it is clear to others who post in this particular forum.

Sharing my honest thoughts and feelings in this forum, is not merely trying to pick a fight.

Then don't assume others are. My observation is that you never miss the chance to bash Islam and when others defend it you accuse them of starting the fight.
 
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