Black Lives Matter Opposes Two Huge Forces For Black Success: Family And Capitalism

Silmarien

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Some people do, especially people in the church.
Here's just one example...There are pastors that think a physically abused woman should stay with her abuser for the sake of the family unit, for the sake of the children. If she does leave she is held in condemnation, disparaged.

Here's an example from outside the church in my own town...
The same scenario of an abusive husband. She left and 30 yrs. later they were still calling her the divorcee. "Oh, you're referring to the divorcee." I'm not exaggerating, they continued to disparage her.

Okay, yes. That is definitely a problem, though it seems to primarily be one within very conservative circles, not the general public, and it also strikes me as more misogynistic than anything else. I feel like it's probably the work of sane conservatives to try to combat that sort of mentality, since I don't know how a left wing style analysis could be anything but counterproductive.

Right now there is a thread titled Can a Bastard be a Christian? If that isn't disparaging I don't know what it.

That doesn't seem like a mainstream sort of idea, though. If I wrote a manifesto every time a fundamentalist said something I didn't like, I'd have a lot of manifestos, so... I don't know. I don't think this sort of stuff reaches the level of being a widespread societal issue, and if someone was going to address it, they'd need to couch their response in biblical terms and not start talking about how they seek to disrupt the nuclear family. ^_^
 
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disciple Clint

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Funny, the only ones I see being wildly over emotional are the conservatives who don’t want to listen to anyone and paint anything they see as disruptive to the comfortable order that benefits them as a dangerous threat.
absolutely no one saw any of the BLM demonstrators being overly emotional, well that just is not true.
 
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KCfromNC

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The problem is their website itself: https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

When you start talking about how you want to "disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure," you're going to freak people out.
I find it impressive that a number of totally unrelated posts have all managed to cut off the quote in the exact place which leads it to be a misleading paraphrase of the idea.

I wonder what the common source of this misinformation is.
 
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Silmarien

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I find it impressive that a number of totally unrelated posts have all managed to cut off the quote in the exact place which leads it to be a misleading paraphrase of the idea.

I wonder what the common source of this misinformation is.

I really think the source is the website itself. It's not necessary to open with the word "disrupt" if you're just talking about a communitarian vision where extended families and larger communities play a role. That word is laden with ideological meaning that really comes out of the Marxist tradition (or critical social theory, more specifically), so it's going to provoke a response from conservatives, classical liberals, and anyone else who knows what this school of thought is and doesn't like it.

I think conservatives go much too far when they see neo-Marxist jargon and immediately jump to thinking that the people using it are dangerous radicals who want a violent revolution, since that's not where the modern far left is at all, but the jargon itself is pretty obvious. At least to anyone who knows what to look for. Maybe you need to have problems with the underlying theory to pick up on it? I'm on the Orwellian side, so all I see is Newspeak, Newspeak, Newspeak half the time, and the more of it I see of it in one place, the more I know to stay away.
 
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Quartermaine

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Do we, though? I grew up in a three generational family with no father, and I can't say I ever felt disparaged for it. Some of the "family values" crowd can be a bit irritating, since they seem blind to the fact that the "traditional" nuclear family is not always ideal or even possible (or even particularly traditional), but I think if you talked to most of them using normal language rather than jargon, they would accept a communitarian approach or extended family as a valid alternative. They might find such arrangements unfortunate and somewhat sub-optimal, but I don't find that in and of itself disparaging.

What I find problematic in the BLM statement on this issue is the usage of the word "disrupt." It's very strong and hostile, and there are better ways to say what I assume they meant. For example: We seek recognition that the traditional nuclear family structure is not always possible or sufficient, and foster larger communal support and involvement in one another's lives, especially in the upbringing of children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

To me, the problem with this website is primarily that it's full of jargon out of critical social theory: disrupting the nuclear family, dismantling the patriarchy, freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, etc., ad nauseam. If you're going to explain your stances on a website, you should find someone who can actually use moderate, non-ideologically laden language to write it. Otherwise conservatives are going to see the link between critical social theory and Marxism, jump on it, and decide that you're a bunch of dangerous revolutionaries!
BLM is not and has not advocated "disrupting the nuclear family"

Try looking at the motivations of the groups and individuals working to spread that lie.
 
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Silmarien

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BLM is not and has not advocated "disrupting the nuclear family"

Try looking at the motivations of the groups and individuals working to spread that lie.

In which case, they should change the language on their website and replace the jargon with more neutral language.

I don't see why people are blaming conservatives and classical liberals for jumping on language that BLM actually used to describe their views. Yes, conservatives are notorious for twisting anything you say to make you look like a Marxist, but you don't have to make it this easy for them.
 
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istodolez

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Black Lives Matter Opposes Two Huge Forces For Black Success: Family And Capitalism

Since the BLM organization’s leaders admit they are trained Marxists, they must be understood within the wider patina of Marxist diatribes against the nuclear family, capitalism, and by extension the idea of progress. The official webpage of the BLM organization spells it out quite clearly: "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and villages that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

Those unfamiliar with Marxism may be puzzled at this seemingly random opposition to the nuclear family. Deeper introspection, however, reveals that the BLM organization’s outlook is quite consistent with Marxism.
...
In the absence of both parents, children raised by their extended kin, such as an aunt or uncle, are significantly more likely to have, in the words of one study, “higher levels of internalizing problems” including loneliness and sadness when compared to those raised by married parents. Another established finding in sociological research is that fathers play a pivotal role in children’s development.
...
Of the many problems with this philosophy is that advocates of utopianism almost always end up resorting to deadly force to achieve their ends. Since the desires of the more radical BLM activists are insatiable, such an insurrectionary movement will always demand more extreme policies than those just passed.

Regardless of their politics, Americans must resist the most strident voices of BLM by not allowing the cult of political correctness to silence their voices. The brutality of communist regimes and the French Revolution evidence what is possible when defenders of civility and freedom remain silent. To preserve the republic, Americans must challenge the dangerous aspects of the BLM movement, lest they follow the same fate
.​

Why does BLM scare you folks on the Right so much?

Seriously you guys seem to be looking for ANY reason to attack it by "any means necessary".

Are black people asking for consideration so scary? Really?
 
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essentialsaltes

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istodolez

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I really think the source is the website itself. It's not necessary to open with the word "disrupt" if you're just talking about a communitarian vision where extended families and larger communities play a role. That word is laden with ideological meaning that really comes out of the Marxist tradition (or critical social theory, more specifically), so it's going to provoke a response from conservatives, classical liberals, and anyone else who knows what this school of thought is and doesn't like it.

But there is yet another way to read this: "disrupt" is a jarring word. A word of "action" if you will. Even if it comes from a Marxist training it itself does not imply "Marxism and forced communalism will follow".

I rather assume it is a statement meant to be forceful and active while still retaining that je ne c'est qua of the "radical".

I think conservatives go much too far when they see neo-Marxist jargon and immediately jump to thinking that the people using it are dangerous radicals who want a violent revolution, since that's not where the modern far left is at all, but the jargon itself is pretty obvious. At least to anyone who knows what to look for. Maybe you need to have problems with the underlying theory to pick up on it? I'm on the Orwellian side, so all I see is Newspeak, Newspeak, Newspeak half the time, and the more of it I see of it in one place, the more I know to stay away.

Agreed, the Right goes a bit overboard with overinterpretting statements. And you are correct, those striving for radical social change often speak more stridently. And of course "modern erudition" seems to call for overwrought language. I don't see it as a sign to "stay away", I just see it as a sign of people ramping up for a long struggle in hopes of major change within their lifetimes. And that's kind of daunting.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Silmarien

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But there is yet another way to read this: "disrupt" is a jarring word. A word of "action" if you will. Even if it comes from a Marxist training it itself does not imply "Marxism and forced communalism will follow".

I rather assume it is a statement meant to be forceful and active while still retaining that je ne c'est qua of the "radical".

Trying to bring social justice concerns to a conservative audience has been my "thing" for the past four years. How we use language in a way that doesn't immediately alienate people is one of my major interests, since we're dealing with genuine cultural differences between groups that distrust each other. If we want conservatives onboard, we need to learn how to talk to them, which means less ideological rhetoric.

If we don't want conservatives (or classical liberals) talking constructively about race, then writing manifestos with Marxist rhetoric is perfectly acceptable, but if they read them and flip out, I really don't think that the fault is on their side.

Also, on dit "je ne sais quoi." ;)

Agreed, the Right goes a bit overboard with overinterpretting statements. And you are correct, those striving for radical social change often speak more stridently. And of course "modern erudition" seems to call for overwrought language. I don't see it as a sign to "stay away", I just see it as a sign of people ramping up for a long struggle in hopes of major change within their lifetimes. And that's kind of daunting.

For me, it's not about being daunted. It's about underlying issues with the type of social theory that is written all across that website. For example, I have problems with the concept of "intersectionality" that come from having a feminist background. Because of the way oppression is conceptualized in a hierarchical list of group identities, violence against women only matters when the perpetrator is of an equal or higher social status. Otherwise, it is typically downplayed and women are tossed under the bus. Sometimes we feminists even toss ourselves under the bus in the service of other causes, possibly because we're still socialized to think of ourselves as less important.

I know critical social theory quite well. I have seen too much, from the abusive nonsense that goes on at feminist websites like Jezebel, where men can be perfectly reasonable and insightful and still be accused of "mansplaining," to being attacked once myself by critical race theorists for having a somewhat different theory of sexual assault. I have other issues as well, like the way that members of minority groups who are not viewed as sufficiently progressive are demonized, and then attacked by those who have privilege over them. For people of color, this often ends up looking like left wing colonialism, and for women, it takes on a misogynistic character. I consider this as racist and sexist as much of what happens on the right, so when I see people running with the sort of ideological language that leads to it, I know to stay away.

That said, I do think that Black Lives Matter does some good work and I wish them success in increasing the visibility of racial issues. I'm happy to listen to them and I think some of the attacks on them are unwarranted and likely based in racism. At the same time, their website makes their ideology very clear, and it's an ideology I actually find oppressive because of the way that race and gender intersect. After spending the last century or so fighting to no longer be perceived as a mere helpmeet, the quiet, supportive subservience of "allyship" is something I would rather do without.

I prefer to support groups like the Poor People's Campaign... I don't agree 100%, but I literally never agree with anyone 100%. I'm just happy to see the religious left on the move again, black church front and center. :)
 
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Radagast

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The word disrupt has a meaning. Can you explain why they use the phrase "mothers, parents and children"? It is either a redundancy caused by sloppy thinking and a lack of proof reading or an intentional exclusion of the word father

It's explained by their commitment to LBTQ. They're envisaging multiple female parents.
 
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Radagast

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To me, the problem with this website is primarily that it's full of jargon out of critical social theory: disrupting the nuclear family, dismantling the patriarchy, freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, etc., ad nauseam.

That website is carefully thought out. It says exactly what they want it to say.
 
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Radagast

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immediately jump to thinking that the people using it are dangerous radicals who want a violent revolution

I simply can't think why people would think that. </sarcasm>

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FireDragon76

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@Silmarien , you make some really good points.

There are other ways to work towards a more egalitarian society not bound by traditional prejudices and bigotries, besides tossing around rhetorical hand grenades of violent and aggressive imagery that will be poorly understood by a public that isn't necessarily college educated. People need to remember that a significant part of the population, after all, has an IQ below 90 and doesn't have the emotional regulation to look beyond inflammatory rhetoric.

Right now there is a thread titled Can a Bastard be a Christian? If that isn't disparaging I don't know what it.

I think sometimes @Silmarien lets her experience as an Anglican be the equivalent of rose-colored glasses. Not all Christians are so ethical, unfortunately. Some are willing to peddle in denigration if it will further their narrative. And this is more common that the gentility of Episcopalianism, especially as the religion has become politicized and weaponized in the public sphere.
 
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disciple Clint

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@Silmarien , you make some really good points.

There are other ways to work towards a more egalitarian society not bound by traditional prejudices and bigotries, besides tossing around rhetorical hand grenades of violent and aggressive imagery that will be poorly understood by a public that isn't necessarily college educated. People need to remember that a significant part of the population, after all, has an IQ below 90 and doesn't have the emotional regulation to look beyond inflammatory rhetoric.



I think sometimes @Silmarien lets her experience as an Anglican be the equivalent of rose-colored glasses. Not all Christians are so ethical, unfortunately. Some are willing to peddle in denigration if it will further their narrative. And this is more common that the gentility of Episcopalianism, especially as the religion has become politicized and weaponized in the public sphere.
4. A person with average academic ability has a higher than 50 percent chance of dropping out of college. For the general population, the average IQ score is 100. Research has found that, among white, American college students, those with a 105 IQ score have a 50-percent chance of dropping out of college. They also report that the average IQ of a college graduate is about 114. But they also show that having a high IQ is no guarantee of graduating. Those who score 130 (very rare; about 2-percent of the population) still have a 10-percent dropout rate. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...nning-facts-about-higher-education-in-america
 
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Silmarien

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@Silmarien , you make some really good points.

There are other ways to work towards a more egalitarian society not bound by traditional prejudices and bigotries, besides tossing around rhetorical hand grenades of violent and aggressive imagery that will be poorly understood by a public that isn't necessarily college educated. People need to remember that a significant part of the population, after all, has an IQ below 90 and doesn't have the emotional regulation to look beyond inflammatory rhetoric.

Well... the problem here is that either someone doesn't have the ability to look beyond the inflammatory rhetoric and freak out, or they do have the ability to look beyond it, associate it with Marxism because they are well read enough to pick up on the connections, and freak out anyway.

Nothing good can come out of it unless you're only talking to left wingers, and the rare left winger who doesn't like Marxism might pick up on it also and react like the conservatives.

I think sometimes @Silmarien lets her experience as an Anglican be the equivalent of rose-colored glasses. Not all Christians are so ethical, unfortunately. Some are willing to peddle in denigration if it will further their narrative. And this is more common that the gentility of Episcopalianism, especially as the religion has become politicized and weaponized in the public sphere.

I do have several friends who come from abusive fundamentalist Christian backgrounds, you know. I've heard some pretty awful stuff. Interestingly, the only friend I have who came out of Evangelicalism who's well-adjusted (and still a practicing Christian) is actually black.

That's obviously just anecdotal, but I'm not convinced that when BLM talks about alternatives to the nuclear family, they're thinking about the problems in primarily white fundamentalist communities. I would suspect they're thinking about stuff like mass incarceration, actually.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well... the problem here is that either someone doesn't have the ability to look beyond the inflammatory rhetoric and freak out, or they do have the ability to look beyond it, associate it with Marxism because they are well read enough to pick up on the connections, and freak out anyway.

Nothing good can come out of it unless you're only talking to left wingers, and the rare left winger who doesn't like Marxism might pick up on it also and react like the conservatives.

I can appreciate aspects of Marxist economics. But I think it would be a poor idea in this political climate to tie that to an important cause like fighting discrimination against blacks. It's one reason that Martin Luther King Jr. didn't discuss Marx, even though he was certainly educated enough to appreciate aspects of his critique of capitalism, and was indeed in favor of progressive reform of society away from exploitation of the poor and marginalized (it's seldom discussed that he also lead a crusade against poverty and war, and not just racism, which he is less well known for).
 
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