Black Africans who are indeed in the Bible

[Albion]

History shows otherwise

Trust me, it doesn't.

What we can say with some assurance is that black Africans did, at times move into ancient Egypt, although the majority of Egyptians were never of that race and the most famous of the dynasties (the pyramid builders, Moses' pharoah, etc. ) almost certainly were NOT that.

We also know that some Biblical personalities were Africans...but of which race we do not know.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Science has proven conclusively that the human race originated in Africa. However, the ancient kings of Egypt were black as shown in extant art works from that era. .

There are differing types of Egyptians and that's something MANY in Egypt have noted for some time when it comes to the differing shades - as well as the differing skin variations in Africa in general. There are a lot of stereotypes others can have when it comes to the term "black" - and sadly, a lot of ignorance on what actually has occurred in Egypt historically.

Did the Egyptians UNIVERSALLY have features we'd deem to be Negroid traits? Not really. However, scientifically and culturally, it is the case that the Egyptians were a part-Black people and that there were many cases of having Negroid features present (far from a minority). That much is for certain - as it concerns the facts.

In antiquity, People were who they were, and black or white simply did not exist as differentiators. ...although acknowledging it was not a problem as much as in our times. In ancient times color was not something that was the sole factor in determining opportunities as it was in later times. One solid history book on the issue that may be of blessing to you on the subject is entitled Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks

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As said before, I've been amazed at how many Egyptians have had to correct others when it comes to people thinking to be Egyptian is light-skinned and yet they've either NEVER been to Egypt or had Egyptian friends. For many Egyptian communities, as I was told by light-skinned Egyptians in the Coptic Orthodox Church community I was blessed to interact with when they shared their stories of loved ones harmed (and later verifying in the reports ), it's a big point of bitterness when someone says something as limited as "Well, you dark skinned Egyptians simply were from others who moved in Egypt" (without any historical evidence) while saying the light-skinned ones were always present. That has never been the case whatsoever...

There were Egyptians of Darker complexion that were always present just as others who were light-skinned were present - others who moved into Egypt that were dark-skinned just as others who were light-skinned (especially when seeing the influx of Arabs into Egyptian territory) moving into Egypt.

• Racism in Arab Lands :: Gatestone Institute

• The Root: Race And Racism Divide Egypt : NPR
• Black in Cairo: What are YOU Going to Do about Racism?! https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0
• Black Egyptians Facing Intense Racism Seek Help Among

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Africa has seven distinct skin tones with lighter brown being often associated with "Arabs" that live in the Middle East ....but as happens unfortunately, all people with the same shade tend to get grouped together politically, racially and geographically.

When people hear that someone is Black, they automatically think that means someone is dark-skinned...due predominately to media representations of what black culture is like and the ways others have often stereotyped things. However, you have many Africans that're light-skinned, as is the case with many in Egypt today and other places.

One can consider those present in Africa on the southern tip, such as
Khoisa people. The term Khoisa is actually a unifying term for two similar groups: the foraging San and pastoral Khoi.One thing you might notice is their surprisingly light skin tone for being a southern African group.

Khoisan people of Africa.

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It always depends on which part of Africa one goes to that determines the skin tone they have. Other Africans have been there for a VERY long time.

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Others have had white skin/light complexion and yet they were born in Africa. Happens all the time, if aware of groups that are Albino (more here and here)--with others suggesting that the movement of Albino Africans into other parts of Europe is a big part of why lighter skin is present there, as well as the climate impacting the skin coloration

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__________________



Dark Skin comes from many places - and thus, it's possible that one can be dark - and African - and yet not look like Africans of certain features. On the same token, it's simply possible to be Dark and not come from Africa.

There was a conversation I had once where someone made an ignorant claim that one could tell whether someone had African descent if they had dark skin since (in their view) the darkest skin comes from Africa....and I though the man was on the far side of the rainbow to even assume such when it comes to seeing differing ethnicities around the world and the ways they don't fit the stereotype.

One can examine very dark skin in a myriad of cultures. In example, there's the issue of Indians of Dark coloration, which is common throughout India...and in line with those who are Dark South Asians (with dark skin often looked down upon in Asia and is a big deal over there):[/CENTER]

Additionally, there are the people of Papua New Guinea and the Aboriginal people in Austraila (more here, here, here, here and here) and many other places.

Some pics of the Aborigines​

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[ebedmelech]

I'm kind of confused about this whole thread. This is not an issue at all in my mind.

EVERYONE IS DESCENDED FROM ADAM...so now what?

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

I'm kind of confused about this whole thread. This is not an issue at all in my mind.

EVERYONE IS DESCENDED FROM ADAM...so now what?

This should be the final quote needed for this subject!

 

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

You don't see any white Americans in it either

 

[barryrob]

Where can I find pertinent information online or offline about the black Africans who are indeed in the Bible? I find it sad that Christianity has at times been about exclusion and segregation. It is an affront to a Savior who suffered greatly so that we might be saved. I am fascinated by the history and culture of different peoples around the world, namely blacks in the US. I have been reading this book about the Africanisms in US American culture and so far it is a good read. It doesn't seem to have any type of agenda or distortion so I will continue to read it. Anyway, I read that the religion of the slaves in the US was based on African and Christian beliefs. What were the Africanisms so to speak were carried over into the United States? Santeria and Voodoo was not, or are not widely practiced here, so what are the main differences between how God is worshipped by black people and how God is worshipped in white churches? Is there a difference?

I know that I am straying away from the initial topic but there is a Bible where the writer(s) links Christianity with African or African American beliefs. I need to know more about that and I wonder if it is biblical. I know that Sheba, the baptized Ethiopian, and Moses' wife was African, but who else was an African? Was Bathsheba African or just a dark skinned woman? What were her origins despite being married to a Hittite; Solomon was described as black and comely while David was described as ruddy.

Look under Ham and Cush.

 

[pshun2404]

Lucis of Cyrene (North Africa) and Simeon called Niger (probably from the country by the same name, or maybe Nigeria) had a three year revival going in Antioch...

Also Black and White are culturally relative racist terms invented by the aristocratic Europeans...they do not exist....all ethnicities are as a rainbow of all shades...any two extremes can be seen as drastically different but actually we are all one race.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Where can I find pertinent information online or offline about the black Africans who are indeed in the Bible?

If interested...

One excellent work I'm going through is entitled Africa and the Bible by Edwin M. Yamauchi and Kenneth Kitchen which was given to me by another student of Early Judaism/Hebraic history....fascinating read on the ways that Africa was highly prominent within the culture of the Hebrews, with more than 80 photos, maps, and charts included in this insightful exploration of the African presence in Scripture.

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[Gxg (G²)]

Lucis of Cyrene (North Africa) and Simeon called Niger (probably from the country by the same name, or maybe Nigeria) had a three year revival going in Antioch...

Wishing for more of those things to occur in our day...

 

[Radagast]

I need to know more about that and I wonder if it is biblical.

If you're talking pre-Christian African beliefs, then no, certainly not.

what are the main differences between how God is worshipped by black people and how God is worshipped in white churches? Is there a difference?

No real difference. The big differences are between denominations.

To take one example, black Reformed Baptists worship and preach more like white Reformed Baptists than like black Pentecostals or black Methodists.

 

[Radagast]

the most famous of the dynasties (the pyramid builders, Moses' pharoah, etc. ) almost certainly were NOT that

The pyramid builders were, in fact, Coptic, and the modern Coptic language is descended from the language of the Egyptian hieroglyphs (indeed, this fact helped with deciphering the hieroglyphs).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No real difference. The big differences are between denominations.

To take one example, black Reformed Baptists worship and preach more like white Reformed Baptists than like black Pentecostals or black Methodists.

Actually, the differences go vastly different than simply denominations - it is often stereotypical to assume it is denominations alone, in light of how there are already battles that have occurred between those who are Black & Reformed vs. Reformed from White culture. I've have had several friends in the tradition (on both sides) that have often noted the differences which can be just as strong as seeing the differences between Black Pentecostals and White Pentecostals (even though there can be overlap). One example, from what one of my friends noted best:

• The Black and Reformed Christian's Dilemma | A Better Covenant.

• « Rapture?New Blog Link »
  Young, Black and Reformed: Where Do I Go From Here?
  

• To Create or Repackage How Should I Proceed?: Just Another Dilemma of Being Young Black & Reformed

 

[Radagast]

Actually, the differences go vastly different than simply denominations

There's nothing in any of those links indicating a fundamental difference between black and white Christians of a Reformed persuasion.

Certainly, famous black pastors like Thabiti Anyabwile and Conrad Mbewe of that persuasion are saying pretty much the same things as their white brothers.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There's nothing in any of those links indicating a fundamental difference between black and white Christians of a Reformed persuasion.

Certainly, famous black pastors like Thabiti Anyabwile and Conrad Mbewe of that persuasion are saying pretty much the same things as their white brothers.

None of the links avoided differneces on what was fundamental for blacks when it came to Reformed Theology and Whites (or examining the differing issues when in Black Reformed circles and White reformed circles) - and I doubt you actually addressed the content of the ministry.

That said, Talking about fundamental differences from a distance is not the same as experiencing it in person - the individual had much more on the site in regards to what other Reformed Black individuals have experience (and I myself as well, being friends with him and growing up with it throughout high school as well in a Reformed high school). It was NOT a hidden debate nor one that was hard to notice differnnces when it came to the issues emphasized in Black Reformed circles and white Reformed circles.

Thus, as said before, one does not need to stereotype if they haven't even experienced it in psron. Thabiti is not the only Reformed Black on the issue and there dozens of others - there's Anthony Bradley who has often done many critiques on the differences in style and emphasis that other White Reformed do not consider with Black Reformed. There's also Tony Carter (of "On Being Black and Reformed" who has often talked on the racism that many Reformed cirlces have promoted as well as ignorance of where black commununites differ in focus) and Eric Mason (of Ephinay Fellowship - who taught both Lecrae and Trip Lee) being another one who has spoken alongside others on why many within Black Reformed cirlces do not get along with White Reformed circles due to the lack of connection. The entire reason as to why they had the "Elephant Room" talks years back on blacks not being understood by whites (with Black Reformed ministers speaking on the issue) is enough testament on the issue... - more shared here:

On the event where Jakes spoke to other Reformed theologians (like Mark Driscoll), it was an event called "Elephant Room" - and it was pretty controversial seeing the ways other blacks associated with the Reformed movement felt on other blacks associated either with the Faith Movement or Prosperity movement. For commentary on the issue:

The Elephant Room: After Bryan Loritts Referred To 'The White Theological World'​

With TD Jakes, I was actually very glad he spoke with Mark Driscoll in the Elephant room discussion...for many times, I heard accusations from groups that never seemed to line up whenever I'd study them...and people getting upset over others not automatically having a Trinatrian view often are not aware of how there were differing views within the church--especially in regards to what's known as binitarian monotheism and how much of the early Jewish world held to it. TO me, what Jakes has often said seemed to be more akin to that on most parts.

To see the entire interview or what Mark Driscoll (an Emerging Reformer) said on it, one can go online/look up the article entitled "10 Reflections on the Elephant Room," . Driscoll writes that it was an important event and "rather than talking about Christian leaders, the opportunity to talk with them is important as it models humble but forthright disagreement." "In the acrimonious age of the Internet this kind of modeling is important. I know I too have been guilty of talking about people rather than to them, so I do not exclude myself from the need to learn and mature in this area," he confessed.

Driscoll said that he would address participants privately rather than publicly when it came to specific issues.


For more review:

• More 'Elephant Room' Noise | Urban Faithjavascript:void(0)
• "The Elephant Room II, Session 4 Transcript " ( )
• --"td jakes « αληθεια και χαρις" ( )
• "The Elephant Room 2: Round-ups, Live-blogging, & My Impressions ..." ( )
• "Bishop T. D. Jakes of the Potters House Church says he now embraces the Trinity Doctrine: T. D. Jakes was interviewed by pastor Mark Driscoll and pastor James MacDonald on January 27, 2012 at Harvest Bible Chapel"

• T.D. Jakes Addresses his Views on the Trinity and Why Some say he Is a "Heretic" in The Elephant Room; Tells Driscoll "There Is Very Little Difference between What I Believe and What You Believe"

• ( )

I was a bit surprised to see Driscoll talking with Jakes..but as they've shared the same platforms before (such as what occurred with things like Catalyst), it makes sense for them to become more aware of one another---and rather than having wars by proxy or choosing to circle around one another in long distance discussion/hints, it was nice to see them talk between one another.

There's also the extensive amount of in-fighting that has occurred with regards to Holy Hip Hop and other aspects of that that many blacks have promoted which many whites have rejected (in regards to Lyrical Theology/Rap and other musical styles).

And on top of that, there are those who are Reformed Charismatics or Pentecostal Calvinists - people who are Reformed and yet are Pentecostal in much of their experiences. There has been more on the issue discussed elsewhere - as seen here or in the following:

• What Would You Do as a Reformed Slave? | A Better .

• What’s A Couple of Slaves When You Have Good Theology? | A Better Covenant

• Young Black & Reformed Part III:Theology and the Reformation, Great Awakening & Jim Crow | A Better Covenant

• Reformed Blacks of America's Blog » Expository Preaching: An Apostolic and Black Re-Evaluation

• Doing Indigenous Reformed Theology - RAANetwork

• Theological Imperialism and the Black Community on Vimeo

• The Strange Phenomenon of White Middle-Aged Aged Pastors Listening to Rap Music... - Challies

• Keeping Black Christians at Arm's Length : The Front Porch

• Minorities and the Reformed Church | The Works of Jo

• Reaching the black community (and others) with the Reformed faith

Being Black and Reformed with Anthony Carter - February 27, 2013 - YouTube

More can be said besides that...but at the bottom line, it is a vastly different thing simply living out an experience within the online realm and actually being involved in community with other Reformed - both BLACK and White communities - to see how each operate, beyond what one pastor does in comparison with another. And being Black Hispanic myself, it's a big deal.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

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There are differences, but those are born from the different experiences in America of blacks and whites than differences extractable from scripture.

Black Christians in America traditionally draw strong reference from the "Israel released from Bondage" narrative of the OT, as well as the equality narratives of the NT.

As well, the concept of looking forward to a future kingdom rather than making a kingdom on earth is a strong concept in the tradition of Black Christians in America.

The concepts of 1 Peter that this world is not "home" is also a stong concept in black congregations. Racism and the position of being a minority has always prevented blacks from considering America truly "home." That's why funerals of black Christians are called "homegoings."

This even affects things like the selection of hymns. Militant and nationalistic hymns like "Onward Christian Soldiers" and "A Might Fortress is Our God" have always been far less popular in black congregations.

Thanks again for noting as you did here in regards to how the Diaspora and suffering experience has transformed a lot of the ways Blacks see scripture differently than others ..

 

[Radagast]

And on top of that, there are those who are Reformed Charismatics or Pentecostal Calvinists - people who are Reformed and yet are Pentecostal in much of their experiences.

Again, that's a Charismatic vs non-Charismatic thing, not a black vs white thing.

In fact, all the boundary lines you draw have black Christians on both sides and also white Christians on both sides.

I'm not quite sure why you insist on seeing things in racial terms?

 

[Albion]

The pyramid builders were, in fact, Coptic, and the modern Coptic language is descended from the language of the Egyptian hieroglyphs (indeed, this fact helped with deciphering the hieroglyphs).

Yeh, that's great...but they weren't blacks.

 

[Radagast]

Yeh, that's great...but they weren't blacks.

Indeed, they were not black. They would have looked pretty much the same as their Coptic descendants do today. Much like these Coptic bishops:

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Again, that's a Charismatic vs non-Charismatic thing, not a black vs white thing.

In fact, all the boundary lines you draw have black Christians on both sides and also white Christians on both sides.

Incorrect, seeing the differences that are already present in Black Pentecostalism as opposed Pentecostalism in White circles - from the preaching styles to forms of worship and other things. It has impacted even the Reformed Circles when it comes to those who are Reformed and Charismatic as opposed to Cessationist Reformed. There have been numerous debates on the issue...', especially from those bothered on the issue that there are Blacks who are Reformed and considering themselves Charismatic - counter to what others feel identity should be (more shared in Pastor JeromeReformed + Charismatic = Reformatic - Pastor Jerome )

The reason there are blacks/whites on both sides is in regards to the fact that Blacks on one side brought it up - and those blacks (or whites) who agreed with them noted it to be problematic. From the lack of focus on issues pertaining to the Black community (i.e. community development, fatherlessness, gang violence, etc.) to noting where black communities were forced to adapt white styles in order to be seen as legitimate by white groups - it is not a small issue and can never be minimized. To claim there are no differences between groups is akin to saying that a multicultural church where there both blacks and whites means that all White Churches are the same as Black Churches in all denominations - that would be building on premises that are not proven. There are Black Reformed Christians who support other White Reformed Christians on certain issues - but that does not mean Reformed Theology across the wall represents Black people.


It is ignoraning the facts to trying speaking the myth that there is no difference between black and white communities when it comes to worship - with denominations not really being the main issue since there are differences even within groups (i.e. Black Reformed vs Reformed from a White perspective) - even though there can be overlap. Black Reformed Baptists worship and preachers do NOT preach more like white Reformed Baptists than like black Pentecostals or black Methodists - Black Preaching Styles have been consistent in all and this has been noted multiple times when it comes to culture. And there has always been commonality when it comes to Black culture - Stereotyping is insufficient. With Black Pentecostalism, the history of it is very complex and multi-faceted - more shared in The Black Roots and White Racism of Early Pentecostalism or and Black Fire: One Hundred Years of African American Pentecostalism and The Spirit Poured Out on All Flesh: Pentecostalism and the Possiblity of Global Theology. And for other places of basic review, one can go either here or here/here or the following:

• Racism in Early Pentecostalism A Historical Analysis of the Apostolic Faith Mission Church in South Africa ...

• Historical Roots of Racial Unity and Division in American Pentecostalism
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• Afro-Pentecostalism: Black Pentecostal and Charismatic Christianity...

• Across the Lines: Charles Parham?s Contribution to the Inter-Racial Character of Early Pentecostalism, by Eddie Hyatt : The Pneuma Review

And as said before, there's a vast difference between speaking on an issue with lacking experience and living in it growing up - there's no escaping that simple reality and some of the comments here are highly indicative of speaking on the issue from a distance. Insisting on not realizing cultural differences as it pertains to ethnicity is not reflective of actually understanding ethnicity and the realities that come with them.

As it concerns clear - differences..

I tend to wear loud (my daughter says flamboyant) clothing when going about my normal day. In church I take care not to draw attention to myself dressing more reserved. But that's just me.

Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.

The dress styles as well as other traditions of Black Church culture are fascinating..Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery

And there is a fascinating book I've been wishing to get a hold of/read soon on the matter - entitled "Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery"

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Noel L. Erskine's new book Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery delves into the history of the Black Church, reaching back to its origins in the Caribbean and following its path into modern day. I was glad that the professor of theology and ethics sat down with Oxford University Press in honor of Black History Month to discuss the Plantation Church's origins and the prominent role the Caribbean played in its formation.

Even the history behind Negro Spirituals and how in many ways they were in the spirit of the Early Church liturgy when it came to living on the run and singing psalms/hymns before the Lord in caves or in the elements - the Black Church has truly powerful worship experiences present in it.

The example of Paul and Silas come to mind in Acts 16:24-26 /Acts 16 when they were in prision and they began to sing hymns/psalms. They didn't have a "Bible" with them (though the Word was certainly in their hearts)---and in light of their lack, they decided to begin singing. Admid their suffering Paul and Silas were miraculously freed from their confinement.. and God did an amazing work that led to others being saved.

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These are things which orally-based cultures - from Indigenious groups in the 3rd world to what occurred with the Black Church with Negro Spirituals - all understand and have utilized to their success. Whereas people in the West or outside of those cultures think the people are somehow backward or not intelligent for not always placing things in a SYSTEMATIC form of theology, they are HIGHLY intelligent and able to connect with others because they know the language of their own people.

And it has evolved continually into much of what we seen today:

Psalm 8 - The Praise & Worship Songs Of Richard Smallwood - YouTube

Sadly, there are many ways in which African-American cultural expression in worship has been both ignored - and belittled. This tends to evidenced itself whenever others assume that they have to redevelop the ways worship happens in order for it to be authentic when it comes to Eucharistic, Liturgy and communion with the Lord - ignoring the fact that African/Black cultural practice has had a deep communion and connection to the Lord that gets missed because (quite frankly) there has been so much focus on Euro-centric viewpoints and perspectives that ignores where others honored the Lord long before they came on the scene.

Some of this can be racially motivated, sadly - even on the unconscious level...

Some of this has been discussed before elsewhere - as seen here:

It's hard to help many realize how African Protestantism was mediated through Protestant missionaries in the context of Colonialism (with African Protestantism being its own branch in multiple levels) - meaning that of course the main/dominant leaders that get brought up as the "Founders" tend to be those who are European - and to realize that many of the groups they want to slap all together get offended due to how the Reformation and by deduction Protestantism was primarily a national, at best European movement in its stages - and one that often seemed not concerned with reflecting the culture of others it wanted to gain to its side like cards in a game....[/LEFT]

The same, of course, goes for Catholics seeing how it seems not many want to talk on the extensive ways they did the SAME things as the Protestants they try to group together when it comes to minorities having a DIFFERENT view of history in how they weren't considered. This comes to mind specifically with dynamics such as Liberation Theology - and how often I've seen it where Black Catholics have long noted that they always had a radically different understanding of Catholic Theology than other Catholics when it came to seeing solidarity with other Blacks who were Protestants..

For anyone interested..

Some of this is based in what was discussed earlier in another thread dealing with historical groups in the Radical Reformation and the Reformation - seeing which modern groups would qualify for today (as discussed here and here and here).

Some good books I've read on the issue that you'd probably would find it good to invest in are African Reformation: African Initiated Christianity (By Allan Anderson - who considers the developments of African Initiated Christianity to be JUST as monumental as the Protestant Reformation) - as well as Music in the Life of the African Church ( By Roberta Rose King)......Towards Liturgies that Reconcile: Race and Ritual Among African-American and European-American Protestants by William Scott Haldeman... or Reshaping Protestantism in a Global Context - Page 52 ​

For a good review on the issue, one may wish to consider going online and looking up an article under the name of "The Dunamis Word - What Does 21st Century Holiness Look Like?" . The article is made by a man named Pastor Harvey Burnett. He's a wonderful man of God whom I've always loved talking with. For he's one whom I used to blog with years ago on another site....and he's also very knowledgable of many of the backgrounds concerning the Black Church as well as Church History in general.


To see the ways the Methodist movement impacted the Black Church has always been fascinating to me ......and with the classification of it, I do wonder why it seems to be often neglected.

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[Gxg (G²)]

Science has proven conclusively that the human race originated in Africa. However, the ancient kings of Egypt were black as shown in extant art works from that era. Significantly, Moses was raised in the house of a black man and did not know he belonged to a different race. Therefore, it is a good bet that he, too, was black.

As it concerns the history of Blacks in Africa and Egypt specifically, I appreciated what one of my friends noted on the issue here - as seen in the following:

I have met Copts who would at least be classified as "African-American" in an American context, for whatever that means. But issues of race and racism in Egypt aren't necessarily analogous to racial classifications or thinking in other places, so it takes a lot of undoing preconceptions and bias to hopefully start seeing Egyptians as they see themselves, whether we're talking about Copts, Nubians, or any other people who belong to that land and its church.

"Kemi" is, like I posted earlier, one of the reflexes of the word for "black" in Coptic (I've seen it written a few different ways, and since of course Coptic is not anyone's native language anymore it is difficult to say what shades of meaning, if any, might exist between "kemi", "kami", "kimi", or if these are variations due to dialect or scribal idiosyncrasy; they are listed together in both of the dictionaries I have). Often you can find reference in dictionaries or grammars to the "kemi" in Remnkemi meaning "black" with reference to the black soil of the Nile flood plain, as opposed to the red soil found elsewhere in Egypt. I suppose that is fine as one explanation (it wouldn't be the first time a country was known according to some feature of its geography or geology; Bahrain, Guatemala, Chad, etc. are all named likewise), though it tends to bother some Afrocentrist authors who take it to be a "whitewashing" of Egypt's black African identity, which is another thing I have not seen among Copts, though I have yet to see any Afrocentrist literature written by Copts anyway, so that might be a moot point. At any rate no Coptic person I have met thinks of himself as "white", in the American sense of that word. I can virtually guarantee you that if you ask a Coptic person "What does it mean to be Coptic? Who are the Copts?", they will answer "Egyptian", not "black", "white", "brown", etc. That's what I meant when I wrote that "kemi" meaning "black" is not a claim about skin color for Coptic people. It's really not thought of in that way.

Anyway, "Remnkemi" is a compound word made up of "Rem" (or in some dialects "Rom" or "Lom") meaning "man" or "person" -- e.g., one of the words we used to refer to God in Coptic is "Pi-mai-romi", meaning "Lover of Mankind". The n- between 'Rem' and 'kemi' in the word is the genitive marker ('of'), so the whole word can be read as the phrase "Person/People of Egypt", or, if you will, "People of the Black Land/the Black Soil" (understood to mean Egypt).

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That said, there is really a huge difference for others who identify as Black and others who simply have Black features. For Ancient Egyptians, it would not have been a battle seeing themselves as Black since their focus was on being Egyptians or Coptic - even though the features would have been things you see today as well as things pertaining to black features. It's ignorant saying Egyptians weren't black or claiming that descendants today of the Copts are evidence of how all Egyptians always look - as there are many cases where the Egyptians came to the states and were identified as Black .....thus, there's a racial ignorance in the least (and racist tendencies at worst) in ignoring those simple facts.

• 10 Arguments That Prove Ancient Egyptians Were Black - Atlanta Blackstar

• Black Egyptians decry daily racism - Features - Al Jazeera English

As said elsewhere, A lot of people are shocked by Black Copts (as well as blacks in the Middle East, at all...including places like Iraq, as noted in #133 /#130 ). If we're going to talk on Egypt, we need to actually deal with it as it is TODAY - and not just ignore things as they are.

From the Nubian Egyptians to the Egyptian Berbers...there's way too many aspects about Egypt that were tied to Black aspects - and it's something we need to quit speaking around today.

Amazigh Berber in EGYPT [Siwa Oasis] ?????? ??? - YouTube

10a The Berbers: Masters of the Sahara - YouTube

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