Bishop’s decree: Stop holding hands during the Our Father...

[AMDG]

Where did this practice come from? Its not a traditional posture of prayer except for Protestant "around the dinner table" sort of thing I think. Do Latin Catholics ever hold their hands in the orans fashion?

I know, I have heard many stories that it was introduced from Protestant sources, but according to one article from the EWTN library, that isn't the case. They suggest that this is:

A correspondent from British Columbia suggested that the origin of hand-holding might stem from an interpretation of the liturgical norms themselves, particularly: the Ceremonial of Bishops No. 159: "After the doxology of the Eucharistic prayer, the bishop, with hands joined, introduces the Lord's Prayer, which all then sing or say; the bishop and the concelebrants hold their hands outstretched" and No. 237 of the New General Instruction of the Roman Missal: "(the priest) with hands outstretched and with the congregation ... pray the Lord's Prayer."

Anyway, we know that the orans position is specifically reserved for the priest and ordained ministers in Mass *not* the laymen in the pew, and the hand-holding during the Our Father is not in the rubrics, according to the GIRM (General Instruction for the Roman Missal).

 

[Borromeo]

Oh, well, in the Eastern churches (Orthodox and Eastern Catholic) I've been in Orans was popular.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I agree with the family/friends thing. But at St. Monica's in St. Monica, CA, they hold hands so much that, if there was an emergency, nobody would be able to get out. Across the aisles, daisy chain from row to row, and so on. I accept when offered, but only do it with my wife.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Act of spontaneity, community and support are discouraged in the Church.

Singing too loudly can get you a stern talking to in a lot of parishes.

The anality of the banalities of worship is sort of discouraging.

No, they're not. Just in the act of worship which is the Mass.

In what way is a 'stern talking to' harmful? You can heed it or not. Can someone say "If you sing too loud you can't come back to this parish"?

Charlie, you sound like one of those "I don't get fed at Mass" people." Are you? I teach a class about that. I agree that many Protestant services are much more entertaining, but they're mostly devoid of worshipping God. Catholic Mass is sometimes noisy, sometimes off-key, sometimes not very enlightening, but when you realize that we're there to worship the man on the cross, and our Lord and Savior, it becomes moot. Do it for the love of God...

 

[Tigg]

Wall, all said and done, I am not going to refuse and possibly tell someone that a Bishop said not to and don't ya know it's not in the rubric's (whatever). Saying that with a sweet. or stern, or nasty look is not nice period. So if offered, I will take their nice, or sweaty, clean or dirty, whatever hand and say the Our Father. After Mass I can repair any damage that has been done to my hand if necessary, such as dirt sweat etc.

I tell ya I ain't agonna be the first one to offer my hand anymore. Oh a thought, I can imagine telling my Priest when he offers his hand I ain't agonna do it and why. ------------------------->running away

 

[LOCO]

I pray the Our Father with open palms arms at waist level...never seen people holding hands during the Our Father.

 

[Tigg]

I pray the Our Father with open palms arms at waist level...never seen people holding hands during the Our Father.

Good deal. That is what I will do.

 

[Tigg]

And OT, but a mention should be given for the Sign of Peace. From handshake to huggies. I really don't like huggies as some like to hug just a tad to close and to long. Anyhow back to topic of the Our Father...

 

[sylverpiano]

I dislike being touched, especially by strangers.

 

[truthHurts77]

Must be an American thing. I've been to Mass in plenty of places over here and never once encountered this.

lucky you...

and i always thought G Britain was so protestant...

 

[AMDG]

Wall, all said and done, I am not going to refuse and possibly tell someone that a Bishop said not to and don't ya know it's not in the rubric's (whatever). Saying that with a sweet. or stern, or nasty look is not nice period. So if offered, I will take their nice, or sweaty, clean or dirty, whatever hand and say the Our Father. After Mass I can repair any damage that has been done to my hand if necessary, such as dirt sweat etc.

I tell ya I ain't agonna be the first one to offer my hand anymore. Oh a thought, I can imagine telling my Priest when he offers his hand I ain't agonna do it and why. ------------------------->running away

Ever see that old movie "Ferris Bueler's Day Off"? When he wanted to appear that he had sweaty palms, he'd lick his hands. Do that and you won't have to worry about anyone wanting to hold your hand.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

No, they're not. Just in the act of worship which is the Mass.

Um, I thought the point of the thread was talking about the Mass
.

In what way is a 'stern talking to' harmful? You can heed it or not. Can someone say "If you sing too loud you can't come back to this parish"?

It can be kind of hurtful to tell someone the their singing is disturbing
to other people and that they shouild tone it down.

And I have seen people asked to leave a parish (or at least attend Mass elsewhere) because of this kind of stuff (sort of)

Charlie, you sound like one of those "I don't get fed at Mass" people." Are you?

No but I know people who are the they irritate me. So now I feel insulted.
(But I'll get over it so it's ok)

I teach a class about that. I agree that many Protestant services are much more entertaining, but they're mostly devoid of worshipping God.

Whatever


Catholic Mass is sometimes noisy, sometimes off-key, sometimes not very enlightening, but when you realize that we're there to worship the man on the cross, and our Lord and Savior, it becomes moot. Do it for the love of God...[/quote]

Yes, it all those things and never communal. Its about God and you and Christ and the guy next to you ?

Not important.

That's the Catholic way.

It just is.

Get over it

I did

 

[Root of Jesse]

Um, I thought the point of the thread was talking about the Mass
.
Yes, but you said "the Church".

It can be kind of hurtful to tell someone the their singing is disturbing
to other people and that they shouild tone it down.

Not saying it's not hurtful, and it could be done in a non-confrontational way, but sometimes, if someone (even me) is offensive, it needs to be said.

And I have seen people asked to leave a parish (or at least attend Mass elsewhere) because of this kind of stuff (sort of)

I don't believe it's anyone's perogative to ask someone to leave a parish. I could be wrong, but I was taught that Catholic Churches are unique because you don't know, you might be sitting next to a murderer, or a gay person.

No but I know people who are the they irritate me. So now I feel insulted.
(But I'll get over it so it's ok)

Nah, I was just asking. It was my observation, and I observed wrong.

Whatever


Catholic Mass is sometimes noisy, sometimes off-key, sometimes not very enlightening, but when you realize that we're there to worship the man on the cross, and our Lord and Savior, it becomes moot. Do it for the love of God...

Yes, it all those things and never communal. Its about God and you and Christ and the guy next to you ?

Not important.

That's the Catholic way.

It just is.

Get over it

I did[/quote]

It's about the body of Christ, and we are all parts of it. And all of us have 'issues'.

Charlie, I may disagree with you on some things, and sometimes it's hard to tell by printed word what someone is saying. I think you're a straight-up guy. FWIW.

 

[MikeK]

When I pray any prayer at Mass, I prefer to have my hands in my own hands, and I try to focus outward, so I don't really know what's happening peripherally. I immagine Jesus praying the same prayer in front of me/us, that we are joining him, just as we joing the Priest as he offers his prayers up (I prefer the Priest facing away from the parishoners, fwiw). That said, if someone grabs my hand (which has happened) they're free to hold it for as long as they like. Hopefully it aids them in prayer...for me it can be a reminder, if the hand bothers me, I'm failing to give the prayer the attention I should.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Does this guy have the authority to stop it outside of his diocese though?

No.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

"Active participation" and holding hands at the Our Father. Wherein Fr. Z rants...
You can only clap your hands for so long. Therefore, what happens in the next logical move is that lay people have to start doing what the priest does and, if possible, where the priest does it. The distorted and defective notion of “active participation” eventually leads to the false conclusion that people have rights to carry things...

Well once again, Fr Z has it wrong.

19. With zeal and patience, pastors of souls must promote the liturgical instruction of the faithful, and also their active participation in the liturgy both internally and externally, taking into account their age and condition, their way of life, and standard of religious culture
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium

Active participation in the Mass is both interior and external, not just interior as Fr Z would have us do.


Jim

 

[Tigg]

Ever see that old movie "Ferris Bueler's Day Off"? When he wanted to appear that he had sweaty palms, he'd lick his hands. Do that and you won't have to worry about anyone wanting to hold your hand.

Oh yuck, yuck. yuck!!! I imagine no one would want to hold a well licked hand.

Think, unless offered a hand, I will take Loco's idea of what he does.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Good deal. That is what I will do.

THAT is the orans stance that we are not supposed to do.

 

[Fantine]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people were so wrapped up in the prayer that their movements and postures were spontaneous, proceeding organically from their devotion?

That's what happens at charismatic Masses. They're waving their hands in the air!

That's what happens with the Pentacostals. I only went to one sort of Pentacostal service, and I do admit that when two middle-aged women started jumping up and down like they were on pogo sticks, I thought it odd.

But, on the other hand, I wish that I could feel so free and uninhibited during public prayer.

I don't follow the postures because I am so holy, nor because I am so obedient (guess that's a surprise, huh?) but because I am so self-conscious. Instead of abandoning myself to prayer, I have both knees firmly planted on the kneeler.

And so if people spontaneously hold hands, or lift their hands heavenward, because the Spirit is moving them in that direction, I think "wow." If it's to make a political statement, well that's another story

 

[MikeK]

That's al well and good, and I don't have a problem with charismatics per se, but I know that when I am closest to God, I and still, silent, humble and obedient. in addition, I know that when I am silent and solemn, there is no risk of me causing my neighbor to break their concentration on the Lord. I do not wish to cause another to lose focus.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people were so wrapped up in the prayer that their movements and postures were spontaneous, proceeding organically from their devotion?

That's what happens at charismatic Masses. They're waving their hands in the air!

That's what happens with the Pentacostals. I only went to one sort of Pentacostal service, and I do admit that when two middle-aged women started jumping up and down like they were on pogo sticks, I thought it odd.

But, on the other hand, I wish that I could feel so free and uninhibited during public prayer.

I don't follow the postures because I am so holy, nor because I am so obedient (guess that's a surprise, huh?) but because I am so self-conscious. Instead of abandoning myself to prayer, I have both knees firmly planted on the kneeler.

And so if people spontaneously hold hands, or lift their hands heavenward, because the Spirit is moving them in that direction, I think "wow." If it's to make a political statement, well that's another story