Birth Control

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I know I could never give up birth control (well I don't take it but my wife dose) so I guess this is the nail in the coffin on this board for me

Thanks for all of the replies I would rather not attend than be like my relatives.

Do not listen to them----PLEASE go talk to a priest.

 

[benedictaoo]

Luckily for us all you are not a priest, and so not anyone's confessor...so your opinion really means nothing except in regards to your own relationship with Christ.

As you, Shannon.

For the rest of us, here's what the Catechism says to guide pastoral action:

So if a preist tells a couple they cans use Birth Control Pills, of any kind-- they can? The preist is not wrong?

I really want you to answer? is the preist right or wrong? if the couple KNOWS what the Church says about it, are they free? Yes or no?

And there's no penalty of excommunication attached to being sterilised or using birth control. I would challenge someone to find such a formal penaltyabywhere in cabobn law. That doesn't mean those things aren't sinful, but not all sin carries the penalty of excommunication.

Mortal Sin excommunicates anyone. You may not receive Communion if you are in a state of MORTAL SIN. We are NOT referring to official excommunication by ones bishop... bringing up Canon Law is so irrelevant and it's trying to manipulating the truth. We are talking about the natural excommunication that our sins bring us.

You need to stop misleading ppl Shanon, for real.

The thing is--we can all bicker all day for seven Sundays---questions about specific circumstances are honestly and truly no one's business except the family's and their priest. If you are struggling in this area, then some very heart to heart talks with a trusted priest are in order.

Didn't i say that?

But tell me, what does the Church teach on the use of ABC's Shannon?

Does the Church teach us that they are neutral or that they are always evil?

There is never a time when they are not evil, Shannon, including condoms.

They are evil in of themselves, so YOU tell ME when we are free to use evil to do good?

 

[benedictaoo]

Do not listen to them----PLEASE go talk to a priest.

I recommend he does.. but what if the preist tells him he can use ABC of any kind for any reason- can he? Even when he knows the Church teaches differently and has taught differently since day one?

You know the Church is in crisis Shannon, and they have wacky preist out there that would tell ppl they can ignore the truth.

Are we free to listen to them even when we know it does not line up with the Church?

 

[JacksLadder]

Do not listen to them----PLEASE go talk to a priest.

I am waiting to be scheduled to within the next two weeks(he has a busy schedule). It was funny my Calvinist chaplain for my squadron walked in on me when I was scheduling with the priest. Now he wants me to talk with him about Peter and the early church before seeing the priest. Then while talking to the Calvinist chaplain our base Buddhist contact walked up to me asking me where I have been for the last half a year LoL.

Talk about an awkward situation

 

[benedictaoo]

I am waiting to be scheduled to within the next two weeks(he has a busy schedule). It was funny my Calvinist chaplain for my squadron walked in on me when I was scheduling with the priest. Now he wants me to talk with him about Peter and the early church before seeing the priest. Then while talking to the Calvinist chaplain our base Buddhist contact walked up to me asking me where I have been for the last half a year LoL.

Talk about an awkward situation

I feel for you man...

 

[JCFantasy23]

Well guess what? Those are not sufficient reasons and before you 'go there', I have 6 myself, had c sections for them all and the only normal delivery I had it came real close to killing me (not exaggerating) and I'm 42 now, have an autistic kid, and it is absolutely recommended i do not get pregnant again.

I'm not free to choice ABC in spite of what anyone says.

Now whether or not this couple has the option to use NFP and not ABC is not up for me to discern but to just decided that they will use ABC's arbitrarily is a problem, if that is what they did.

But that's not the bad part... what is horrific is they (and you) have spread this error to other Catholics bringing scandal to the Church.

You just do not go around undermining the teachings of the Church!

and I'm just really sad that no one sees it.

I'm not doing anything. Again, I'm not here to debate about whether a person can use birth control or not and be Catholic, I was just answering the OP's question on whether some Catholics do use birth control and still consider themselves to be Catholic.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm not doing anything. Again, I'm not here to debate about whether a person can use birth control or not and be Catholic, I was just answering the OP's question on where some Catholics do use birth control.

and they are wrong and just because they do not think they are, does not make them right.

We are not subjective here. There is an objective truth here and it does not change depending on the person OR even the preist.

Some things we do have to obey and this is one of them. We are not free to cherry pick what we like and don't like.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Just something to keep in mind....none of the folks responding in this thread have ANY formal education or training in the Faith, whatsoever. (barring myself who has very minimal formal training)

We also DO NOT have the grace specific to the sacrament of Holy Orders in regards to shepherding souls.

God gave us priests to care for our souls...and you'll notice that when that is brought up a certain type of person will then carry on about how shoddy priests are, that the knowledge and counsel which they offer here is somehow superior or more authentic.

Please- PLEASE- do not use this board as a measure of Catholicism or of how to deal with your troubles and struggles. It is absolutely not representative of the Church, nor Her pastoral approach.

 

[Rhamiel]

What a crime and a shame.

Leaving the different things from different ppl out of it, including me, what does the Church teach?

well the CCC does say this

2352 To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability

sin is always sin, but through differant factors it can be lessened from mortal to venial

 

[JacksLadder]

Just something to keep in mind....none of the folks responding in this thread have ANY formal education or training in the Faith, whatsoever. (barring myself who has very minimal formal training)

We also DO NOT have the grace specific to the sacrament of Holy Orders in regards to shepherding souls.

God gave us priests to care for our souls...and you'll notice that when that is brought up a certain type of person will then carry on about how shoddy priests are, that the knowledge and counsel which they offer here is somehow superior or more authentic.

Please- PLEASE- do not use this board as a measure of Catholicism or of how to deal with your troubles and struggles. It is absolutely not representative of the Church, nor Her pastoral approach.

O.k. I will keep that in mind

 

[Rhamiel]

I know I could never give up birth control (well I don't take it but my wife dose) so I guess this is the nail in the coffin on this board for me

Thanks for all of the replies I would rather not attend than be like my relatives.

brother, correct me if I am wrong, but your question and this thread has almost exclusicely talked about if Catholics can use birth control, and not why Catholics feel the way they do about the subject.
I mean, if you found out that the use of BC was harmful to your relationship with God and your relationship with your wife, would you not atleast have it as a goal to stop using it?

 

[Kid Fish]

I know plenty of Catholics who use birth control. They will tell you that they believe the church made that law to insure a growing population of Catholics who would support the church, and thereby increase the size and income of the church itself. Make the community bigger and you increase it's power in the world.

I doubt God would want us all to simply follow the rules without at least some questions or misgivings in certain areas of law. We each struggle with our own issues and make our choices, and then in the end we accept our final fate.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

As you, Shannon.



So if a preist tells a couple they cans use Birth Control Pills, of any kind-- they can? The preist is not wrong?

I really want you to answer? is the preist right or wrong? if the couple KNOWS what the Church says about it, are they free? Yes or no?




Mortal Sin excommunicates anyone. You may not receive Communion if you are in a state of MORTAL SIN. We are NOT referring to official excommunication by ones bishop... bringing up Canon Law is so irrelevant and it's trying to manipulating the truth. We are talking about the natural excommunication that our sins bring us.

You need to stop misleading ppl Shanon, for real.



Didn't i say that?

But tell me, what does the Church teach on the use of ABC's Shannon?

Does the Church teach us that they are neutral or that they are always evil?

There is never a time when they are not evil, Shannon, including condoms.

They are evil in of themselves, so YOU tell ME when we are free to use evil to do good?

Excommunication is a formal canonical penalty.


There is such a thing known as culpability. Luckily it's not up to you to decide the culpability of anyone else.

And the Vademecum to Confessors seems to indicate that there is a time when non-abortive contraception (when involving a spouse) is a licit thing.

For those interested in what the Church teaches to Her confessors in regards to this area can read the document here:
Life and Family: Vademecum for Confessors concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life :: CNA


Yes- contraception is a bad moral action (but as with all bad moral acts, one's culpability can be diminished), and yes someone can have sincere contrition and yet contracept again. There can be both moral certitude, and human weakness and frailty. It's why we're allowed to go to confession repeatedly. The whole situation also is far more complicated when spouses are not on the same page in regards to contraception, and the Church in Her wisdom recognises such.

It's why the Church rocks---She BOTH sets forth the Truth in no uncertain terms--the point of which is so that we can live in authentic freedom, not enslaved to disorder and sin....AND she recognises that it takes us time--sometimes our whole lives--to combat the ties which bind us, and so She offers us compassion and understanding in that struggle.

 

[Fantine]

Originally Posted by JacksLadder

I know I could never give up birth control (well I don't take it but my wife dose) so I guess this is the nail in the coffin on this board for me

Thanks for all of the replies I would rather not attend than be like my relatives.
​

Jack, if you're a "liberal semi-Calvinist," it sounds as if there are probably quite a few differences you have from Catholicism.

And it also sounds as if you are an idealist. Never lose your idealism.

I'm glad you're on a spiritual search. I think God will respect your struggles and your striving, and that, ultimately, you will be blessed for taking the time and effort to find Him rather than taking whatever you've been taught as a child at face value.

If you said that your beliefs matched Catholicism in every other way except birth control I might respond differently, but it seems as if you are in a different place right now. Blessings to you.

 

[Rhamiel]

I know plenty of Catholics who use birth control. They will tell you that they believe the church made that law to insure a growing population of Catholics who would support the church, and thereby increase the size and income of the church itself. Make the community bigger and you increase it's power in the world.

I doubt God would want us all to simply follow the rules without at least some questions or misgivings in certain areas of law. We each struggle with our own issues and make our choices, and then in the end we accept our final fate.

but look at the problems in Japan and Europe due to shrining native populations? Growth is need for both nations and religions, people do not think about the common good anymore
this theory leaves out the many theological reasons why contraception is bad
even if it was just done for that reason, the Church still has the authority to make rules

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

brother, correct me if I am wrong, but your question and this thread has almost exclusicely talked about if Catholics can use birth control, and not why Catholics feel the way they do about the subject.
I mean, if you found out that the use of BC was harmful to your relationship with God and your relationship with your wife, would you not atleast have it as a goal to stop using it?

Well, that's the issue isn't it ?

Many Catholics don't see BC as de facto a problem with their spouses or their relationship with God.

However, many Catholics have evidence that the use of NFP does cause problems with their marriages and their relationship with God.

Then there's me:

I think the logic that states that NFP is a licit form of birth control and non-abortive ABC is not is convoluted and unconvincing.

 

[Kid Fish]

but look at the problems in Japan and Europe due to shrining native populations? Growth is need for both nations and religions, people do not think about the common good anymore
this theory leaves out the many theological reasons why contraception is bad
even if it was just done for that reason, the Church still has the authority to make rules

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and in fact Europe's trend on all social issues of family is very troubling.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Well, that's the issue isn't it ?

Many Catholics don't see BC as de facto a problem with their spouses or their relationship with God.

However, many Catholics have evidence that the use of NFP does cause problems with their marriages and their relationship with God.

Then there's me:

I think the logic that states that NFP is a licit form of birth control and non-abortive ABC is not is convoluted and unconvincing.

And yet your response has not been to refrain from either....but rather to embrace what the Church clearly states is illicit all circumstances, save one involving one's spouse.

(you know I love you, but I gotta me..)

 

[JacksLadder]

brother, correct me if I am wrong, but your question and this thread has almost exclusicely talked about if Catholics can use birth control, and not why Catholics feel the way they do about the subject.
I mean, if you found out that the use of BC was harmful to your relationship with God and your relationship with your wife, would you not atleast have it as a goal to stop using it?

If I became convinced that that was the case then yes.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

but look at the problems in Japan and Europe due to shrining native populations? Growth is need for both nations and religions, people do not think about the common good anymore
this theory leaves out the many theological reasons why contraception is bad
even if it was just done for that reason, the Church still has the authority to make rules

I don't accept your argument.

Growth is an a de facto virtue nor is it required for the common good.

Populations ebb and follow. They have shrunk and grown over time.

There are almost 7 billion people on this planet and its supporting them is harming it. 7 billion people is an unattainably large human population, yet growth is still being argued as a common good.

I just don't get it. At some point the morality of more children beyond a certain point has to be considered just as the morality of no children or a small number of them has to be considered.