Birth Control

[PetertheRock]

Not true. You just don't hear about the others, because the media hate the Church.

You think if police officers were going out molesting kids they wouldn't have a field day with that? Same thing with teachers, firefighters, doctors, or any other profession?

Darryl

 

[Paul S]

When I am talking about birth control I am not talking about the pill. Although the pill and condoms are the most common forms of birth control I am talking about a woman getting her tubes tied and there is an operation the men can get too to make them sterile. After medical problems my mother had when she had me she had her tubes tied and I don't believe that should be against the Church.

Both are grave sins.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm

But with the problems your parents had, NFP could licity be used.

 

[PetertheRock]

And both will send you to hell..

Looks like about 99% of the people (at least in the US and I believe it's the same all over the world) will go to Hell then. Everyone sins, everyone sins every day. Most of us sin without even realizing it. This would have sent us to Hell if Jesus hadn't died on the cross for us.

And you'll also remember that many of the victims were teenage boys. That's not pedophilia - that's homosexuality.

It's pedophilia. Pedophiles are attracted to children of both sexes. It's not about love, it's about having power over the kids.

Darryl

 

[Paul S]

It's pedophilia. Pedophiles are attracted to children of both sexes. It's not about love, it's about having power over the kids.

Darryl

Then why were the vast majority of the victims boys, especially teenagers?

Looks like about 99% of the people (at least in the US and I believe it's the same all over the world) will go to Hell then. Everyone sins, everyone sins every day. Most of us sin without even realizing it. This would have sent us to Hell if Jesus hadn't died on the cross for us.

Jesus told us that the door to heaven is the narrow gate. God's rules are what they are, whether we agree or not. And masturbation, birth control, and sterilisation are grave sins. But, with God's grace, we can control ourselves. We are not animals who operate purely on instinct.

If we can make it through 40 days of Lent with little food, and wait to eat until mealtime (and, until Vatican II, this was the rule), then a married couple can go a few days without sex.

And 98% of priests do not molest anyone, nor do probably the same percentage of monks and nuns. Celibacy is possible, and St. Paul calls it the highest vocation.

 

[PetertheRock]

This is one of the problems I have with the Catholic Church. Jesus did not say "Here is a list of Grave sins, here is a list of minor sins, here is a list of mortal sins." This is all malarchy created by a bunch of old men under the falsehood of "infallibility" to brainwash people into following their Church. Jesus was clear when he said there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven and that is a sin against the Holy Sprit. Even that is so vague no one knows really what that is.

I am starting to agree with my protestant friends who say that if people actually read what the Catholic Church really says they would run from it. Is birth control a sin? probably. Is swearing a sin? yes. Is taking the Lords name in vein a sin? Definitely. Is murder a sin? Yes. Will these send people to Hell? Only if you don't accept Jesus as your personal savior and ask God to forgive your sins.

Should we strive not to do things like touch, have pre-marital sex, swear, take the Lord's name in vein, and other sins? Yes.

I just have a problem with the whole infallibility issue. Things that are in the bible and moral teachings are infallible but teachings from the Pope are not. People say, well the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit so that makes him infallible." Well, my friends, we are all guided by the Holy Spirit. (most of us anyway) I know I am guided by the Holy Spirit, but I still make mistakes. I am still wrong. I am wrong a lot. A lot of Pope's have been wrong. No one is Infallible. The only one that is Infallible is is Jesus.

Some of the people in here have really made me question my own faith. The only reason I would not become a Protestant is because I believe in the Holy Eucharist and the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. I also believe in the moral issues the Church stands for. I just done believe it's the Church's job of telling people they are going to Hell. The Church has told people they are going to Hell for a lot of different things and then they have all of a sudden changed their minds over the years.

I am not the type that just accepts something just because someone says it. I question things. I question authority. I try to do it in a good way but I like to have answers as to why things are done. Even though I have been born and raised a Catholic and went through the CCD program, I still have a lot to learn about my Church. I also just don't accept someone's post here on a message board. Some issues I am going to have to go to my priest who I can trust to talk to and be candid with and hopefully get my questions answered.

But I tell you one thing, I know for a fact my mother is not going to Hell for having her tubes tied and if you say she is then you better watch out because according to the bible you are the one that is going to be judged by God and you are the one who risks eternal damnation for telling other people they are going to Hell. We are all going to have to face judgement for our sins. I would worry about cleaning up your own house before you tell me I have to clean up mine.

I am sorry if my language is strong, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone but I just don't think anyone has any right to tell anyone they are going to Hell. The only way any of us is going to Hell is if we reject Jesus Christ or if we commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of us has done that.

Darryl

 

[Paul S]

This is one of the problems I have with the Catholic Church. Jesus did not say "Here is a list of Grave sins, here is a list of minor sins, here is a list of mortal sins." This is all malarchy created by a bunch of old men under the falsehood of "infallibility" to brainwash people into following their Church. Jesus was clear when he said there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven and that is a sin against the Holy Sprit. Even that is so vague no one knows really what that is.

Of course any sin can be forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance if we're sorry. Saying a sin is mortal and will send you to hell always means if you don't repent. I assumed Catholics knew that.

If the Church is not infallible, then maybe they just made up the whole Jesus thing, too.

I just have a problem with the whole infallibility issue. Things that are in the bible and moral teachings are infallible but teachings from the Pope are not. People say, well the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit so that makes him infallible." Well, my friends, we are all guided by the Holy Spirit. (most of us anyway) I know I am guided by the Holy Spirit, but I still make mistakes. I am still wrong. I am wrong a lot. A lot of Pope's have been wrong. No one is Infallible. The only one that is Infallible is is Jesus.

If you're guided by the Holy Ghost, and you're wrong, then that means God is leading you into error.

Why is the Bible infallible? It was written by men. It did not drop down from the sky one day, neatly bound in leather or otherwise. God inspired these men to write it. He does the same thing with the Pope.

Some of the people in here have really made me question my own faith. The only reason I would not become a Protestant is because I believe in the Holy Eucharist and the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. I also believe in the moral issues the Church stands for. I just done believe it's the Church's job of telling people they are going to Hell. The Church has told people they are going to Hell for a lot of different things and then they have all of a sudden changed their minds over the years. [/QUOTE]

Name one issue of faith or morals the Church has changed.

But I tell you one thing, I know for a fact my mother is not going to Hell for having her tubes tied and if you say she is then you better watch out because according to the bible you are the one that is going to be judged by God and you are the one who risks eternal damnation for telling other people they are going to Hell. We are all going to have to face judgement for our sins. I would worry about cleaning up your own house before you tell me I have to clean up mine.

I don't know if your mother committed a mortal sin or not, and I never said she did. But objectively, having one's tubes tied is a grave sin. If done with full knowledge that it's wrong and with full consent, it becomes mortal. And dying with unforgiven mortal sins sends one to hell. Whether a grave sin is mortal or not, God will judge.

I am sorry if my language is strong, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone but I just don't think anyone has any right to tell anyone they are going to Hell. The only way any of us is going to Hell is if we reject Jesus Christ or if we commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of us has done that.

We reject Jesus through sin. If I kill someone, I'm rejecting Jesus, because He told us that to follow Him, I must follow His commandments, one of which is to not kill. Same with stealing, or taking the Lord's name in vain, or masturbating, or skipping Mass on Sunday. All are against the will of God.

 

[Canadian75]

But I tell you one thing, I know for a fact my mother is not going to Hell for having her tubes tied and if you say she is then you better watch out because according to the bible you are the one that is going to be judged by God and you are the one who risks eternal damnation for telling other people they are going to Hell. We are all going to have to face judgement for our sins. I would worry about cleaning up your own house before you tell me I have to clean up mine.

I am sorry if my language is strong, and I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone but I just don't think anyone has any right to tell anyone they are going to Hell. The only way any of us is going to Hell is if we reject Jesus Christ or if we commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. I don't think any of us has done that.

Darryl

 

[Dream]

Darryl, we can always repent and ask for forgiveness. God will always grant it. Paul is saying that you won't recieve salvation if you die without repenting a mortal sin.

 

[PetertheRock]

Darryl, we can always repent and ask for forgiveness. God will always grant it. Paul is saying that you won't recieve salvation if you die without repenting a mortal sin.

OK, that makes sense.

Darryl

 

[D'Ann]

Thank you D'Ann and Mark. That does make sense. Just the other day I saw a joke that was on this subject...(Obviously this was about a protestant minister)

A minister and his wife was having a second baby when he went to the church and told them he couldn't raise another kid with the money the church was paying him. So the Congregation decided that for each baby the minister had they would raise his salary by a certain amount.

So after the 6th baby the Congregation got together with the minister and was discussing how this is becoming a bit too much for the church to afford. The minister said, "But babies are a gift from God."

Then a voice from the back of the church spoke up and said, "Rain is a gift from God too but when we get too much we put on our rubbers." The whole Congregation let out an "Amen!"

Even though this is a joke I believe this is the reason you will never see Priests allowed to marry. If priests all had wives and kids the Church would have to pay the Priests a livable wage and it would bankrupt the Church.

Darryl

That could be... but I don't believe the money is the issue with the CC's stand on this particular issue...
D'Ann

 

[D'Ann]

Aerometis,
The Church teaches that the purpose of marriage is to bring forth children. The Church holds the marital act to be a sacred act which is ordered to both unity and procreation. Neither sides of this can be removed or neglected without making the act disordered, and evil.
For example, rape removes the unitive element of the marital act, and thus is evil.
Contraceptives remove the procreative element and thus are evil as well.
It is a disordered view of marriage to think married folks are able to decide to never have children - that thinking is contrary to the purpose and object of marriage which again, is procreation.
To look at the marital act apart from its life giving purpose is also disordered.
Does that answer your question?

Amen and beautifully said... perfectly. Thank you.

God's Peace,

D'Ann

 

[D'Ann]

Of course any sin can be forgiven in the Sacrament of Penance if we're sorry. Saying a sin is mortal and will send you to hell always means if you don't repent. I assumed Catholics knew that.

If the Church is not infallible, then maybe they just made up the whole Jesus thing, too.



If you're guided by the Holy Ghost, and you're wrong, then that means God is leading you into error.

Why is the Bible infallible? It was written by men. It did not drop down from the sky one day, neatly bound in leather or otherwise. God inspired these men to write it. He does the same thing with the Pope.

Some of the people in here have really made me question my own faith. The only reason I would not become a Protestant is because I believe in the Holy Eucharist and the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. I also believe in the moral issues the Church stands for. I just done believe it's the Church's job of telling people they are going to Hell. The Church has told people they are going to Hell for a lot of different things and then they have all of a sudden changed their minds over the years.

Name one issue of faith or morals the Church has changed.



I don't know if your mother committed a mortal sin or not, and I never said she did. But objectively, having one's tubes tied is a grave sin. If done with full knowledge that it's wrong and with full consent, it becomes mortal. And dying with unforgiven mortal sins sends one to hell. Whether a grave sin is mortal or not, God will judge.



We reject Jesus through sin. If I kill someone, I'm rejecting Jesus, because He told us that to follow Him, I must follow His commandments, one of which is to not kill. Same with stealing, or taking the Lord's name in vain, or masturbating, or skipping Mass on Sunday. All are against the will of God.[/QUOTE]

Paul,

Thank you for what you wrote... It makes a lot of sense... well written.

God's Peace,

D'Ann

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But part of being in love is making love. If you cannot sleep with the person you marry then what's the sense of being married?

Darryl

I did not say that one cannot sleep with his/her spouse. I was referring to this statement

The facts are you either are going to have to allow people to use birth control or allow masturbation, but one way or another the sex drive of every man and woman must be satisfied.

It seems to me that this mentality is conducive to using people, which is an abomination of the purpose of sexuality.

Our sexuality was given to us to love and procreate. If a person looks at his/her spouse in a lustful way, or if they have sex with them to pleasure themselves or to satisfy an urge, then they are abusing the beautiful gift of their sexuality.

Having said that, pleasure will result from the act of sexual intercourse, and it can be an unifying force between the husband and wife, however pleasure should not be the end of the means of the sexual act. The sexual act should be a display of love, a profound way of the husband and wife showing each other with their whole body and soul that they love one another, and it should ALWAYS be open to the possibility of life coming from that sexual act. One cannot separate the unifying aspect of the sexual encounter from the procreative aspect, to do so betrays the wedding vows a Catholic couple took, and it is a counterfeit of what the sexual act means. In the sexual act husband and wife should show that they love each other with all that they have, including the life-giving aspects of themselves. God is involved in the sexual act profoundly in the possibility of Him blessing that married couple with new life that may come from the sexual act, for a married couple to block the possibility of God creating new life, is blocking God from this aspect of their life, they are shutting off some of the sacramental grace and life that God wants to give them. Marriage without grace will more often than not lead to the failure of that marriage, thus a large reason for the large difference between the divorce rate of contracepting couples versus non-contracepting couples.

I have 4 words:

THEOLOGY OF THE BODY

Read it.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

We looked at those, and believe me, Vicodin barely dents the pain. The natural methods dont do much at all.

I see, I may be wrong but I think I have heard of people reducing cramps and pain from nutritional means. I'll try to see what I can find for you.

You may want to start researching this, because birth control are not the best thing for your body, and you may want to have this solved by the time you are married if that is your vocation. So I'll see what I can find for you, and you can do whatever you want with the information.

 

[skatepixie]

Nutritional means...interesting. Ive heard that flax seed/fish/things with Omega 3 help, but I get sick to my stomach from Omega 3, so that option is pretty much out. I havent heard anything else about nutrition helping. Some people find that exercise helps, for me it makes it *worse*. And if I skate-esp spinning-after taking the pain pills....well, yikes...

If there is other info, I would be interested for sure, because I will for sure have to go off when I get married. I know that my grandma's cramps and all cleared up when she had her 1st child, so it will hopefully be the same for me.

 

[D'Ann]

Intellect insofar as it is part of emotion, insofar as it is part of understanding one's unity with and love for your spouse: a fair amount of people. I don't think you can in general degrade the sex act within marriage as something tawdry if procreation is not an option.

Amen and amen... also... love and the desire to make love starts in the mind. Intellect plays a very strong role in making love.

D'Ann

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

skatepixie,

Check this out:

http://www.blue-fountain.com/health/menstrual.html
http://www.herbal-solutions.com/products/prod69.htm
http://www.shs.unc.edu/library/articles/painfulp.html

Especially check this out:

http://ccli.org/articles/menses.shtml

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Amen and amen... also... love and the desire to make love starts in the mind. Intellect plays a very strong role in making love.

D'Ann

Ah yes, intellect is a vital part of love and sex. One has to choose to love that person, one has to choose to give oneself to the other completely, one has to choose to not use the other as an object for the means of sexual gratification. Intellect is vital in the act of loving in any form.

 

[skatepixie]

Pretty much the stuff that Ive seen/tried before. I guess Im pretty much going to keep doing things the way they are now. I *do* eat red meat a lot, but I had horrible cramps even when I didnt eat it at all (I also felt very icky then...prolly from lack of protein and iron).

 

[Markh]

The facts are you either are going to have to allow people to use birth control or allow masturbation, but one way or another the sex drive of every man and woman must be satisfied.

I have 1 word


Concupiscence

Our bodies and their functions have been affected as a result of original Sin. The result of this is a situation where we long for things that are sinful. This has existed since original sin and the Church is not going to get rid of the explanation for sake of a generation knee deep in sin wanting more pleasure.

"Sex drive" Jesus did not have sex, Mary did not have sex. Priests and nuns do not have sex, children do not have sex and yet they had fulfilled lives. You have fallen for one of the greatest fallicies of modern times, the idea that you need to be having sex to be happy.

What you need is LOVE and that is what is absent in our society as people are equating sex with love. Sex does not "make love" where there is no love there, Sex is in fact a very limited expression of love. Unlike the Hug it can only be used in 1 situation any other situation is an abuse.