• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Birth Control

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by PetertheRock, Apr 6, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PetertheRock

    PetertheRock Well-Known Member

    +205
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    But what if a couple already has children and doesn't want or can't afford more? I think it's unreasonable to assume that God wouldn't want the couple to have sexual relations as this is an important part of a relationship. Whether the Church wants to admit it or not, sex is a normal part of life. If it is done within the sanctity of marriage there is nothing wrong with sex.

    The facts are you either are going to have to allow people to use birth control or allow masturbation, but one way or another the sex drive of every man and woman must be satisfied.

    One of the reasons I believe there is a lot more child abuse in the Catholic Church is because of the celebacy issue because the Priests are sexually frustrated. It doesn't make it right, I am not excusing it, but it's something that we all have to come to grips with as Catholics. As far as I know, the Catholic Church is the only denomination not to allow Priests to marry and have a family and the Catholic Church is the one Church with the highest child abuse rate. I am not a rocket scientist but I think I can put 2 and 2 together here and see what's going on.

    It's very easy for us lay people to say what Priests should and shouldn't be able to do but why don't all of you try being celebate for the rest of your life. Many good candidates for the Priesthood leave seminaries because they find out they can't handle the celebacy part.

    I am a strong believer that sex should wait until marriage. There is no waivering in that belief at all. I also believe that the purpose of getting married is to have children. I also believe that there are a lot of legitmate reasons for certain married people not to have children. There are some married people out their (Catholics and non Catholics) that shouldn't be parents. There are many people out there that for one reason or another can't have children.

    What's worse? Married people using birth control, or married people not using birth control and having a bunch of kids that end up as wards of the state because the parents don't have the means to take care of them?

    Birth control is not abortion.

    Darryl
     
  2. skatepixie

    skatepixie Veteran

    +54
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Republican
    It can act as an abortion because it can stop the baby from implanting in the womb in the off chance that the egg does become fertilized.


    Also, the Church allows for NFP, which works as well as the pill.
     
  3. faerieevaH

    faerieevaH lucky wife

    +571
    Christian
    Married
    I live in Belgium, we just had two of the most notorious pedophile cases of the century here. Both of the pedophiles were married man. Pedophily has nothing to do with a natural sex drive.


    When couples, in all consideration, after faithful prayer, find they can not or should not have children anymore (for example because of a genetic illness they may transfer, or because another childbirth might be too much for the womans health) the Church does allow for the use of NFP.
    There's a big difference between NFP, which works with the natural fertility of the body and artificial birth control. And unfortunately, although it's not widely reported, some forms of birth control, like the birth control pill, can act as an abortificant.
     
  4. selfintercession

    selfintercession Contributor

    +482
    Anglican
    Engaged
    CA-Liberals
    Agreed.
     
  5. selfintercession

    selfintercession Contributor

    +482
    Anglican
    Engaged
    CA-Liberals
    Birth control is a rejection of God's gifts. Sex is meant for married couples to have children, not simply for pleasure. Sex for pleasure alone is a violation of the Word of God; obviously, the Church is opposed to anything that violates His word.
     
  6. patriarch

    patriarch Senior Member

    533
    +4
    Catholic
    Thank you for bringing this to our attention!





    This is not anything like a fact. With the aid of prayer, the sacraments and a little prudence and discipline, Catholics have the capacity to abstain from sex for the woman's fertile periods.

    [ Quote] One of the reasons I believe there is a lot more child abuse in the Catholic Church is because of the celebacy issue because the Priests are sexually frustrated. It doesn't make it right, I am not excusing it, but it's something that we all have to come to grips with as Catholics. As far as I know, the Catholic Church is the only denomination not to allow Priests to marry and have a family and the Catholic Church is the one Church with the highest child abuse rate. I am not a rocket scientist but I think I can put 2 and 2 together here and see what's going on. [/quote]

    We have had celibate Catholic priests for centuries, and nothing like the recent homosexual abuse of pubescent males by priests. There are numerous factors. One is seminary mis-education and mis-formation. Another is the hypersexualization of the entire culture. I don't know about you, but in our area there is a steady stream of stories about coaches, ministers, and educators engaging in the sexual abuse of minors.

    Yes?


    The first, obviously, because it is a mortal sin. The Church allows Catholics to use natural birth control within limits, for reasons of health, finances, etc.

    No, but abortion as a matter of fact is frequently used as a birth control back up, and the abortion plague followed closely on the birth control plague, and essentially reflects the same mentality, namely, that the natural consequences of sex- children- must be prevented. They are both crimes against life, one in preventing it in the first place, and the other in snufffing it out once it has begun.

    They are also equally grave in their spiritual consequences, since they are both grave offenses against God.

    Lee
     
  7. Poohbear246

    Poohbear246 Well-Known Member

    +31
    Catholic
    But technically,, sex between two loving spouses is not *just* for pleasure even if procreation is not an option. There is, as people have noted in this thread, the unitive aspect of sex. It brings you and your spouse closer emotionally, physically, intellectually, spiritually.
     
  8. Paul S

    Paul S Salve, regina, mater misericordiæ

    +277
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    Not entirely true - married couples may have sex only for pleasure, but they must be open to the possibility that a new life will be created, and for serious reasons, they may use NFP if they cannot currently have children.
     
  9. selfintercession

    selfintercession Contributor

    +482
    Anglican
    Engaged
    CA-Liberals
    Oh please. How many people do you really think have sex for "intellectual" reasons?
     
  10. ProCommunioneFacior

    ProCommunioneFacior I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)

    +542
    Catholic
    Married
    One thing that I find disturbing in some of these posts is the mentality of using one's spouse to derive pleasure or satisfy an urge.:sick:
     
  11. LongingForLight

    LongingForLight Well-Known Member

    794
    +56
    Catholic
    Married
    There are a number of fallacies in this post. I understand your questioning - it's something I went through. But (I firmly believe) you are making some incorrect assuptions.

    If sex is treated as the sacred thing it is within the sanctity of marriage, then there is nothing wrong with it. But to say, "It happened within marriage, therefore it is OK" is wrong. To give an obvious example, domestic rape occurs within marriage but is clearly wrong; both couples must consent even within marriage. And there are many other, less drastic examples. Sex must still be treated with respect within marriage.

    Keep in mind also that NFP is a method of birth control that is as effective as any other - yes, including the birth control pill - but does not separate the sexual act from it procreative ability. If a couple is truly unable to care for other children, NFP classes are readily available for free in the US.

    [insert expletive here]! Many men and women go without sex for the first 20 - 30 years of their lives. Many of those years are after puberty.

    I used to both use BC and masturbate on a regular basis, and I can say that I was much happier after I quit one and kicked the habit with the other. Heck, my fiance (now husband) and I quit having sex after living together for a year because it was hurting our relationship (and my faith). We *lived together* celibately for a year, sleeping in the same bed and even showering together. It strengthened our relationship greatly. And now we have a great married relationship with lots of respect for the other's sexuality (although we've only been married for four days, so it might be a little hasty to say that ;)).

    The trick isn't to try and "sate" the sex drive - the more you have sex, the more you "crave" it, like cigarettes. It's why it works so well to bring a man and a woman closer together; they "crave" something they can only get from each other. The trick is to learn to control the sex drive, so it is no longer an overwhelming force in your life. There is no other way to respect your spouse. Pardon my strong language, but I got caught in that trap. It almost ruined my relationship with the man who became my husband.

    I am almost certain that the Catholic church does not have the highest child abuse rate, but is just the most publicized case of religious child abuse. I think other OBOBers who are more familiar know sources which show that the Catholic church religious are not unusually prone to child abuse. Someone mentioned in a forum that teachers are more likely to abuse children. However, I have no statistics on hand and will need to rely on other OBOBers to provide sources. I think you need to cite a source here if you want to use this argument, and may be just quoting an urban myth rather than actual fact. If you can provide evidence that this is fact, I will retract my statement.

    First of all, this isn't directly related to birth control, but to the issue of priestly celibacy, which is a different question.

    However, I again ask- evidence, please? Assuming that such evidence exists - perhaps they find that this isn't their vocation, that they are called to marriage. Which is perfectly legitimate. If they choose to become deacons instead, then perhaps they do have a calling. In which case, if they still want to become priests, this may be evidence that God does call married men to the priesthood. However, like I said, that is another topic - less directly related to BC.

    This is why NFP may be appropriate. However, God should always be welcomed if He chooses otherwise for a family.

    The former, since there is reason - I believe *good* reason - to believe that ABC leads to an irreverent attitude towards sex, then towards abortion, and ultimately towards life in general. As a ward of the state whose parents didn't have the means to take care of me, I am saying this.

    Unless it has an abortifacient effect, like the Pill and many IUD's. Which can destroy a fertilized egg after the union of man and woman have been united in the beginning of a new life.

    Which is actually my major reason for getting off of the Pill originally. And if the Pill and IUD's are out, the only reliable form of BC left that I know of is NFP. I don't consider condoms reliable enough; the most charitable estimates say that they are 93% effective, which isn't enough if one truly has serious reasons to avoid pregnancy.

    Incidentally, I want to be clear that I am arguing with the ideas being written here, not with you yourself. From what I've seen of your posts on OBOB, you seem like a pretty neat person. But, respectfully, I think the church's position makes sense and that your arguments do not work.
     
  12. ProCommunioneFacior

    ProCommunioneFacior I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)

    +542
    Catholic
    Married
    You are correct, since you are not having sexual relations with anybody:thumbsup: , you are not committing a sin. Having said that, I think there may be some natural ways of reducing the pain, I'm not sure but I think Shannon or Geo might have some information regarding this.
     
  13. Irenaeus

    Irenaeus Sub tuum praesidium confugimus!

    +509
    Catholic
    Married
    Chastity is a gift from God. Man cannot do in on his own, but by the help of God, it is one of the most pleasing, and beautiful, and holy thing you will ever do, possessing "ones vessel in sanctification and honor" as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. It is Christ who gives this gift. It comes with his peace and joy.
     
  14. Poohbear246

    Poohbear246 Well-Known Member

    +31
    Catholic
    Intellect insofar as it is part of emotion, insofar as it is part of understanding one's unity with and love for your spouse: a fair amount of people. I don't think you can in general degrade the sex act within marriage as something tawdry if procreation is not an option.
     
  15. Skripper

    Skripper Legend

    +541
    Catholic


    You're right, it is unreasonable to assume that God doesn't want couples to have sexual relations. But of course, nobody's making such a claim or assumption. What is reasonable to assume it that God both wants couples to have sexual intercourse, and that he wants the possibility of children during the fertile time, but not during the infertile time, since that's the way He's designed the human body. On the other hand, what is unreasonable to assume, and what seems to be the real crux of the matter here, is to think that God does not want the possibility of children resulting from the marital act during the fertile period, that God wants us to inhibit this natural outcome of the fertile time, against His design of the human body. That's what's unreasonable to assume.



    I’ve no idea where you may have gotten the idea that the Church feels otherwise, since this is exactly the Church’s position. The Church affirms not only that sex is a normal part of life, but also that it is sanctified in marriage.



    No, these are not the facts. The facts are that both birth control and masturbation are both sinful, according to the constant teaching of Christ through His Church. The facts are that human beings are not animals, are not slaves to their sexual impulses, and every sexual impulse/desire/temptation does not have to be “satisfied.” The facts are that God provides grace, which enables us to wait, and we will not be tempted beyond what we can endure: “God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13) Do you, seriously, mean to argue that humans, with and by the grace of God, can’t temporarily refrain from “satisfying” their sexual desires during the brief fertile period? C’mon, now, that’s just silly.



    I’m afraid your “facts” are, once again, wrong. The facts are that not only is there not “a lot more child abuse in the Catholic Church” . . . there isn’t any more than in the general population, and is in fact less. Perhaps you are unaware of the actual numbers and statistics, and have been unduly swayed by the media attention the Catholic Church received and have somehow arrived at the mistaken conclusion above. The facts are, statistically speaking, that even the reported cases of abuse among Catholic priests (some of which were false, is somewhere between 1%-3% of the total population of priests), is below the percentage in the general population. Those are the actual facts. The actual facts are also that the majority of sexual abuse cases were not cases of pedophilia, but rather homosexual abuse of post-pubescent adolescent young men, and not of prepubescent children. You may also be unaware that the vast majority of actual molestations of children, of actual cases of pedophiles molesting children, are married men molesting either their own female children or grandchildren. So how anyone can assert that the solution to pedophilia is to encourage pedophiles to marry and have children, which would just provide them with a stable of potential victims, to be molested in the privacy of their own homes, is beyond rational reason.



    First, this again demonstrates the erroneous assumption that the celibate life is somehow the root cause of pedophilia . . . it does not. Second, the priestly vocation and the celibate lifestyle that goes with it in Latin Rite Catholicism, is a calling, a vocation, that all are not called to. So it makes no sense whatsoever to say “why don’t all of you try it.”



    Here, at least, you are in agreement with Catholic teaching and sound moral reasoning.



    You make it sound as though it’s an either/or proposition, as though it must be either one or the other which, of course, is also not the case, not “the facts.”



    Some, like “the pill,” is. At least that’s what it says on the package, that one of the ways the pill works is as an abortafacient. And besides, even those methods that aren’t, are still contrary to the Natural Law, still contrary to Catholic teaching, still wrong, and still grave matter, one of the necessary ingredients for mortal sin.

    Warm regards,

    Dave
     
  16. skatepixie

    skatepixie Veteran

    +54
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Republican


    We looked at those, and believe me, Vicodin barely dents the pain. The natural methods dont do much at all.
     
  17. PetertheRock

    PetertheRock Well-Known Member

    +205
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    Correct my friend. I am not expert on the bible by any means but I never heard or seen anywhere that it is a sin for 2 married people to have sex.

    I also want to clear up something, I don't think the Church should say it's OK for people to masturbate because clearly that is a sin and all sin is wrong. I am just saying that it's a proven fact that about 95% of the population admits to masturbating. If it's a choice between masturbation and having unmarried sex then I would think masturbation is the best choice. Both men and women have sex drives and they have to be relieved one way or another. Not releiving your sex drive I believe is dangerous. Much like if you are hurt or upset and you don't cry or do something to express your hurt you will at some point have a breakdown.

    Also, some people act like this sex abuse scandal just happened. I hate to tell you all, I am almost 100% sure sex abuse has been going on since the beginning of the Church. If you accused a priest of doing something like this 40 or 50 years ago, maybe even sooner than that, you would be called the anti-Christ or worse.

    I do believe the Catholic Church has a higher than normal rate of sexual abusers than any other profession or religion. It is true that even married people can be sexual predators, but it's very easy for a sexual abuser to hide under the cloth to conceal their crimes.

    I think better screening processes should be done such as federal criminal background checks and intensive personal history reviews should be done on all applicants to the Priesthood.

    I don't believe the celebacy issue is the ONLY reason for the sex abuse scandals but I believe it could be a factor in attracting sexual predators to the Priesthood.

    Darryl
     
  18. PetertheRock

    PetertheRock Well-Known Member

    +205
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But part of being in love is making love. If you cannot sleep with the person you marry then what's the sense of being married?

    Darryl
     
  19. Paul S

    Paul S Salve, regina, mater misericordiæ

    +277
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    And both will send you to hell.

    Not true. You just don't hear about the others, because the media hate the Church.

    And you'll also remember that many of the victims were teenage boys. That's not pedophilia - that's homosexuality.
     
  20. PetertheRock

    PetertheRock Well-Known Member

    +205
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    When I am talking about birth control I am not talking about the pill. Although the pill and condoms are the most common forms of birth control I am talking about a woman getting her tubes tied and there is an operation the men can get too to make them sterile. After medical problems my mother had when she had me she had her tubes tied and I don't believe that should be against the Church.

    My parents couldn't have afforded to have another child even if they wanted one. When I was growing up we were lucky to have food on the table and a roof over our head. My dad was struggling with minimum wage jobs ($2.50 an hour) and also trying to overcome alcoholism. Thanks to a mircale from God my dad has almost 30 years of sobriety and a happy marriage that is still going strong after 33 years and counting. A lot of times growing up we wouldn't have had food on our table or a roof over our head if it wasn't for the Church and Community and government programs.

    Every time my dad finally got a good job something would happen and he would lose it. He worked for several years as an orderly at the hospital which he really liked and then he got laid off when they got rid of the orderlies. He got a really good job at a local plant and they pulled up and left town. Then it was on to a series of minimum wage jobs until finally he won his appeals (after 10 years+) from the military. My dad is now a 100% service connected disabled veteran and after his sizeable settlement we finally had a decent life. By that time my childhood was just about over but we still had some good times and I am still thankful to God for saving my dad's life.

    But now that I told you all my life's story you can see that having any other kids would have been an impossible bourdon for my family. So I think my mother did the wize thing by getting her tubes tied.

    Darryl
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...