Bill Weise, 23 minutes in hell and many Ezekiel 37 events??!!

[visionary]

When Yeshua calls in the first resurrection don't roll over and go back to sleep... The second call is not so pretty.

 

[daq]

Originally Posted by daq

Surely the soul that sins shall die. There is no way around it. Yeshua tells us what the soul concerns but it does not come through well in the renderings. If you lay her down now you will receive her back: this commandment Yeshua received from the Father, and we likewise received the same. The one who seeks to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her but the one who will apollumi-destroy his soul for the sake of the Testimony of Yeshua shall find her. What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you. ​

Daq… do you personally believe in the "soul sleep" doctrine?

I used to…. but certainly don't at this time.

Yes, part yourself asunder, into pieces, and cut off those evil members and rotten shepherds of your own household which offend you even as was spoken of in what you quoted, (for every man is a "house" with his or her own set of household "members"). And when the Son of man comes he will restore those members which you have been forced to put to sleep. Then shall they be raised up to be used only for righteousness in the kingdom of your Father. Otherwise why immerse your members in the washing of the water of the Word which is to immerse for the dead? But I can assure you that you will not precede them because the dead in Messiah rise first.

Allegories my friend, allegories, allegories . . .

 

[daq]

Originally Posted by daq

Originally Posted by DennisTate

Originally Posted by daq

Surely the soul that sins shall die. There is no way around it. Yeshua tells us what the soul concerns but it does not come through well in the renderings. If you lay her down now you will receive her back: this commandment Yeshua received from the Father, and we likewise received the same. The one who seeks to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her but the one who will apollumi-destroy his soul for the sake of the Testimony of Yeshua shall find her. What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you. ​

Daq… do you personally believe in the "soul sleep" doctrine?

I used to…. but certainly don't at this time.

Yes, part yourself asunder, into pieces, and cut off those evil members and rotten shepherds of your own household which offend you even as was spoken of in what you quoted, (for every man is a "house" with his or her own set of household "members"). And when the Son of man comes he will restore those members which you have been forced to put to sleep. Then shall they be raised up to be used only for righteousness in the kingdom of your Father. Otherwise why immerse your members in the washing of the water of the Word which is to immerse for the dead? But I can assure you that you will not precede them because the dead in Messiah rise first.

Allegories my friend, allegories, allegories . . .

By the way, Dennis, I really like how the halachic thinking in this passage and context which I have referenced above comes through in the OJB translation/paraphrase. It's not about some future "physical-bodily rapture off the earth never to be seen again" as a one time event that was to happen two thousand years after it was written, but rather, it is about the faithful walking into that great day wherein the promise is fulfilled, each in his or her own appointed times:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18 OJB
1. Lemaskana (finally), Achim b'Moshiach, we ask and exhort you in Adoneinu Yehoshua, in order that, just as from us (Moshiach's Shlichim) you received (as authoritative halachic tradition, as the Messianic teaching to be followed) how it is necessary for you to be fier zich (comport oneself) in your derech (way of life) and to please Hashem (just as you in fact are doing), so you should abound more and more.
2. For you have da'as what mitzvot (commandments) we gave you through [Moshiach] Adoneinu Yehoshua.
3. For this is the ratzon Hashem (the will of G-d), your kedushah (holiness), your consecration, that you abstain from zenut (fornication),
4. That each one of you [as Kadoshim] have da'as of how to control your own k'li (vessel) in kedushah and kavod,
5. Not in the passion of ta'avah (evil desire, lust) like Goyim who do not have da'as of Hashem;
6. That no man commit peysha and take advantage of one of his Achim b'Moshiach in this [sexual] matter, because Hashem is the Nokem (Avenger) concerning all these things, just as also we told you before and warned you.
7. For [as far as our bechirah (election) is concerned], Hashem did not summon us for tu'ma (uncleanness) but in kedushah (holiness).
8. Therefore, the one rejecting this mitzvah (commandment) does not reject Bnei Adam but Hashem who gives to you His Ruach Hakodesh.
9. Concerning the matter of ahavah shel achvah (brotherly love), you have no need that we write you, for you yourselves are limudei Elohim (taught of G-d) to have ahavah (agape) one for another.
10. For indeed this you do toward all the Achim b'Moshiach in all of Macedonia. But in this we exhort you, Chaverim, to abound more and more.
11. And have as your ambition to lead a quiet life of shalom bayis, and to mind your own business, and to have a parnasah, working with your own hands, according to the mitzvot (commandments) we gave you.
12. The tachlis (purpose) is that the way you fier zich (comport oneself) in your derech (way of life) be conducted properly toward outsiders and that you might not be nitzrach (needy).
13. We do not want you to lack da'as, Chaverim, concerning those who have "fallen asleep." The purpose is that you not have agmat nefesh (grief) like the rest, who do not have tikvah (hope).
14. For, if we have an Ani Ma'amin belief that Yehoshua had his histalkus and then stood up alive again in the Techiyas HaMoshiach from HaMesim, even so, Hashem will bring with him [Moshiach] those who have fallen asleep through Yehoshua.
15. For this we say to you by the Dvar Hashem, that we who are alive and have been left behind until the Bi'as (Coming, Parousia of) Moshiach Adoneinu, may in no way be kodem (preceding) those who have fallen asleep.
16. For Adoneinu Himself, at the signal, at the bat kol of the Sar HaMalachim (the Archangel), and at the shofar blast of Hashem, shall come down from Shomayim, and the Mesim in Moshiach shall stand up alive in the Techiyas HaMesim first.
17. Then [next in sequence], we who are alive and who have been left behind simultaneously with them shall be snatched up in the ananim (clouds) to meet Adoneinu in the air. And so always with Adoneinu we shall be.
18. Therefore, give chozek (strength) and speak divrei chizzuk (words of encouragement), comforting one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4 Orthodox Jewish Bible

Remember the Torah concerning leprosy to teach between the unclean and the clean: for if the Father puts the plague of leprosy in your house, in the land of your possession, and if you come to think that you may indeed have leprosy in the walls of your house? Then it is probably put there to see if you will indeed obey his commandments and walk in his Torah. So then you go to the Priest, and you say to him: "It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house!")) And then what happens? An appointment shall be made, (but no one knows the day or the hour) and the Priest shall command that they empty the house before He go into it to see the plague, so that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward shall the Priest go in to see the house. So everything that is in the house must be removed so that it be not made unclean, (this means the treasure inside the "house" which is YOU! ) for there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when the Priest goes in to make the atonement, (Leviticus 16:17, Revelation 15:8).

 

[DennisTate]

By the way, Dennis, I really like how the halachic thinking in this passage and context which I have referenced above comes through in the OJB translation/paraphrase. It's not about some future "physical-bodily rapture off the earth never to be seen again" as a one time event that was to happen two thousand years after it was written, but rather, it is about the faithful walking into that great day wherein the promise is fulfilled, each in his or her own appointed times:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-18 OJB
1. Lemaskana (finally), Achim b'Moshiach, we ask and exhort you in Adoneinu Yehoshua, in order that, just as from us (Moshiach's Shlichim) you received (as authoritative halachic tradition, as the Messianic teaching to be followed) how it is necessary for you to be fier zich (comport oneself) in your derech (way of life) and to please Hashem (just as you in fact are doing), so you should abound more and more.
2. For you have da'as what mitzvot (commandments) we gave you through [Moshiach] Adoneinu Yehoshua.
3. For this is the ratzon Hashem (the will of G-d), your kedushah (holiness), your consecration, that you abstain from zenut (fornication),
4. That each one of you [as Kadoshim] have da'as of how to control your own k'li (vessel) in kedushah and kavod,
5. Not in the passion of ta'avah (evil desire, lust) like Goyim who do not have da'as of Hashem;
6. That no man commit peysha and take advantage of one of his Achim b'Moshiach in this [sexual] matter, because Hashem is the Nokem (Avenger) concerning all these things, just as also we told you before and warned you.
7. For [as far as our bechirah (election) is concerned], Hashem did not summon us for tu'ma (uncleanness) but in kedushah (holiness).
8. Therefore, the one rejecting this mitzvah (commandment) does not reject Bnei Adam but Hashem who gives to you His Ruach Hakodesh.
9. Concerning the matter of ahavah shel achvah (brotherly love), you have no need that we write you, for you yourselves are limudei Elohim (taught of G-d) to have ahavah (agape) one for another.
10. For indeed this you do toward all the Achim b'Moshiach in all of Macedonia. But in this we exhort you, Chaverim, to abound more and more.
11. And have as your ambition to lead a quiet life of shalom bayis, and to mind your own business, and to have a parnasah, working with your own hands, according to the mitzvot (commandments) we gave you.
12. The tachlis (purpose) is that the way you fier zich (comport oneself) in your derech (way of life) be conducted properly toward outsiders and that you might not be nitzrach (needy).
13. We do not want you to lack da'as, Chaverim, concerning those who have "fallen asleep." The purpose is that you not have agmat nefesh (grief) like the rest, who do not have tikvah (hope).
14. For, if we have an Ani Ma'amin belief that Yehoshua had his histalkus and then stood up alive again in the Techiyas HaMoshiach from HaMesim, even so, Hashem will bring with him [Moshiach] those who have fallen asleep through Yehoshua.
15. For this we say to you by the Dvar Hashem, that we who are alive and have been left behind until the Bi'as (Coming, Parousia of) Moshiach Adoneinu, may in no way be kodem (preceding) those who have fallen asleep.
16. For Adoneinu Himself, at the signal, at the bat kol of the Sar HaMalachim (the Archangel), and at the shofar blast of Hashem, shall come down from Shomayim, and the Mesim in Moshiach shall stand up alive in the Techiyas HaMesim first.
17. Then [next in sequence], we who are alive and who have been left behind simultaneously with them shall be snatched up in the ananim (clouds) to meet Adoneinu in the air. And so always with Adoneinu we shall be.
18. Therefore, give chozek (strength) and speak divrei chizzuk (words of encouragement), comforting one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4 Orthodox Jewish Bible

Remember the Torah concerning leprosy to teach between the unclean and the clean: for if the Father puts the plague of leprosy in your house, in the land of your possession, and if you come to think that you may indeed have leprosy in the walls of your house? Then it is probably put there to see if you will indeed obey his commandments and walk in his Torah. So then you go to the Priest, and you say to him: "It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house!")) And then what happens? An appointment shall be made, (but no one knows the day or the hour) and the Priest shall command that they empty the house before He go into it to see the plague, so that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward shall the Priest go in to see the house. So everything that is in the house must be removed so that it be not made unclean, (this means the treasure inside the "house" which is YOU! ) for there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when the Priest goes in to make the atonement, (Leviticus 16:17, Revelation 15:8).

Wow!

The Orthodox Jewish Bible translation of I Thessalonians 4:1-18 is beautiful!

This takes us to another topic……….


http://www.christianforums.com/t7647325/
Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!
This is just a theory and I may be wrong but after being highly skeptical of the idea of a rapture for most of my life I am now open to the idea that the Rapture could fit in extremely well with the ultimate fulfillment of the Fast of Yom Kippur.


I could not get my head around this idea until reading the NDE account of Dr. Richard Eby:

"He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you "might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

I can clearly recall how Jesus' voice paused at this moment. He was savoring an anticipation too intense and private to be revealed. Was he pre-living that moment at which he would enjoy the victory which his Father would give him as the eternal reward for his own long-suffering? His own sting of death would be swallowed up, and he would be the omniscient Head of a completed and compliant body for whom he had shed his blood on a terrible cross. He would reign as KING of the Jews after these days of grace. Then his thoughts returned to me.

"My son, when that time has come, my Father will call to me. The applause of the heavenly hosts will be deafening; they too have been awaiting that day, ever since they announced my birth to the shepherds at Bethlehem so long ago. Scoffers will gaze with fear and wonder as my angelic hosts watch me fulfill my promise to my earthly body of believers at my soon return to Earth." (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)

My belief at this time is that when this event is completely fulfilled….. each and every saint and patriarch and prophet will be given a body similar to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus after his resurrection.

He could go through walls….. he could eat fish and bread…. and he could tell Doubting Judas Didymus Thomas to touch the nail prints in his hands, feet and the wound in his side.

In a way…. the old man Dennis Tate that existed in 1988…. who had an incredibly simplistic understanding of scripture….. is practically dead and gone……… over these past 24 years of studying NDE accounts the Bible has really came to life in a whole new way.

 

[DennisTate]

When Yeshua calls in the first resurrection don't roll over and go back to sleep... The second call is not so pretty.

Yes………. sometimes what we were taught as teenagers can cause us to disregard the voice of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus Himself?!


Dr. George Ritchie, near-death.com:

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

 

[DennisTate]

Yes, part yourself asunder, into pieces, and cut off those evil members and rotten shepherds of your own household which offend you even as was spoken of in what you quoted, (for every man is a "house" with his or her own set of household "members"). And when the Son of man comes he will restore those members which you have been forced to put to sleep. Then shall they be raised up to be used only for righteousness in the kingdom of your Father. Otherwise why immerse your members in the washing of the water of the Word which is to immerse for the dead? But I can assure you that you will not precede them because the dead in Messiah rise first.

Allegories my friend, allegories, allegories . . .

The "member" of my body that gives me the most trouble is my brain……. to a degree I made something of an idol out of the words of Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong and his son…….. I am so glad to have been introduced to the Messianic Gentile movement through their teachings but……what they taught about "soul sleep" made it truly challenging for me to move on to a deeper understanding of scripture.

The results of the poll here indicate that many people in the Messianic Jewish/ Messianic Gentile movement will have similar difficulty figuring out that the being of light of NDE fame is usually Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorified form………. honouring a covenant that was made all of the descendants of Abraham…. if not with all the descendants of Adam?!

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Prophecy Of Baruch Chapter 6
[6] "For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

Dr. George Ritchie, near-death.com:

Suddenly, a being of tremendous light and love appeared before him. Ritchie realizes this light is like "a million welders' lamps all blazing at once." Human eyes would be destroyed in a second if they saw it. The being tells Ritchie to stand up. Ritchie is astonished to learn he is standing before Jesus Christ. More than anything emanating from Jesus was the unbelievable amount of unconditional love shining from him - a love that knew everything about Ritchie and loved him just the same. Simultaneously, as Jesus appeared to him, Ritchie watches his entire life displayed before him. Jesus asks him, "What have you done with your life?" Ritchie tries to come up with several examples but realizes he has fallen short. Ritchie eventually realizes Jesus is not judging him at all; but rather, Ritchie was judging himself. And the question "What have you done with your life?" had more to do with "How much unconditional love have you given others."

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[lynx1]

It's interesting. My guess is that he is unsaved but given a chance through this experience to wake him up.

 

[daq]

The results of the poll here indicate that many people in the Messianic Jewish/ Messianic Gentile movement will have similar difficulty figuring out that the being of light of NDE fame is usually Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorified form………. honouring a covenant that was made all of the descendants of Abraham…. if not with all the descendants of Adam?!

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Prophecy Of Baruch Chapter 6
[6] "For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

Dr. George Ritchie, near-death.com:

Suddenly, a being of tremendous light and love appeared before him. Ritchie realizes this light is like "a million welders' lamps all blazing at once." Human eyes would be destroyed in a second if they saw it. The being tells Ritchie to stand up. Ritchie is astonished to learn he is standing before Jesus Christ. More than anything emanating from Jesus was the unbelievable amount of unconditional love shining from him - a love that knew everything about Ritchie and loved him just the same. Simultaneously, as Jesus appeared to him, Ritchie watches his entire life displayed before him. Jesus asks him, "What have you done with your life?" Ritchie tries to come up with several examples but realizes he has fallen short. Ritchie eventually realizes Jesus is not judging him at all; but rather, Ritchie was judging himself. And the question "What have you done with your life?" had more to do with "How much unconditional love have you given others."
​

John 5:22
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

We have already had some of this discussion before and I think you know my answer. But I will add that a visit from Hananiah can either result in temporary blindness, or can result in one becoming dumb, (speechlessness) or even both because the one to whom he is sent does not receive his words in the commencement. However, fear not, for this is for the good to them that love God in the End. Take it as the command going forth to repent. And in the next appointed time, (after some soul searching, fasting for three shabu`iym yamiym, and true repentance) Hananiah comes again and this time Azariah is the one who restores the speech with a touch to the lips, or the sight with a touch so that the scales fall from the eyes, or strengthens one as necessary so that the same may begin to truly stand and hear, (and of course these things concerning the senses are supernal in meaning and not generally physical in nature though they can be). If you hear the voice of one speaking in such a great vision the one who commands the messengers is the wonderful numberer and Commander of the Covenant but you will not understand until after the appointed time in the after days, (you will consider it perfectly). Anything without or over and above is generally strong delusion given to castaway fish, (reprobates) for the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net. Understand, ben adam, these things are not fun and games or a way to make a profit and sell books: you will die before you live or you will not live and continue to your grave thinking yourself to be alive.

well maybe it is just me but , I don't trust lot of these , I have heard t many nurses talk about NDE's and most people come out of death screaming then later talking about the warm light.

so I have come to my own conclusions about dreams and vision.. and I don't repeat mine unless they are confirmed in two ways. the dream has to become become it's own double witness, only then do I know that the third interpretation and larger/ fuller / most perfect fulfillment is sure .

So when I get any kind of vision that isn't double witnessed . then I think it is a lesson for me personally from God and he is fixing my ideas of his character, or fixing my character.

So many people see something and think it is always to tell someone else something and maybe it is not.

Sometimes the dreams need time to bake and for his revelation process to reveal what he is saying . because the first or most obvious conclusion isn't always the best or only or fullest conclusion..
. Either way it is always best to let him interpret our dreams or visions. It is just kind of easy to interject ourselves and our knowledge into what he is trying to say. it is very hard to stop ourselves from doing that to the dreams he may give.
so I would like to know how these peoples dreams were witnessed , thus making them like legal tender or a legal document. I don't know how he deals with everyone else but that is what I have to do anyway and that is only what I trust. just FYI...

It is wise not to share what you have been given until after when you begin to know what it all means. Most of it usually concerns oneself but after having been set right things will be used to help others individually at given times rather than the whole world all at once. For instance if you see visions of the end of the world and complete destruction everywhere it generally concerns the destruction of your own "world", (so that it and you may be raised up a new creation with your own "new heavens and new earth" wherein dwells righteousness). If you would know how to properly discern whether the dreams and visions of someone else are legitimate you must follow the writings and the Torah, (which are supernal). A perfect example is Cornelius. What happened with Cornelius and why do we even know his name to this day? He saw a Malak in his house at about the time of the evening oblation, the ninth hour which is the hour of prayer, (same time as Daniel when Gabriy'el is sent to him in one place written). Cornelius is told that his appointed time has come and his alms-good-deeds have come up for a memorial before the Most High. He is told what to do next and he does what he is told. What happens in the meantime? Peter receives a vision wherein he is commanded: "Rise Peter: slay and eat!" and this concerns Cornelius and his household. So then come the men sent from Cornelius and Peter goes with them to the house of Cornelius. However Peter does not go without others of the faith: Six Men go with Peter to the house of Cornelius. There are seven besides the men whom Cornelius had sent and six of those seven have slaughter weapons in their hands, (and one has the inkhorn of a scribe at his side). What then ensues? Cornelius and his household are slain. What then happens next? The testimony of Cornelius is brought back to the apostles, talmidim, and brethren which were in Yhudah and Peter is forced to rehearse the entire episode before the apostles, elders, and brethren. Then what happens? They all partake-eat of the testimony of Cornelius and glorify Elohim, saying, "Then has Elohim also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Now therefore TESTIMONY IS SPIRITUAL FOOD and any testimony which has not been slain properly, accordingly as prescribed in Torah, and then brought to the Door of the Tabernacle of the Congregation, (and there is only one whose name is the Door) then we are not to partake of that testimony, (do not allow the spirit of that testimony into your "house"). This is the law concerning such things and it remains in effect regardless of the doctrines of those who do not understand supernal things:

Leviticus 17:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [s`iyrim-goats as in the goat to-for `Aza'zel from the previous passage] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.
8. And thou shalt say unto them, Whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers which sojourn among you, that offereth a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer it unto the Lord; even that man shall be cut off from among his people.

So the man is likened to a pair of goats, the one with his spirit twin, and if the goat was not properly slain, and brought to the one whose name is the Door, (of the Mishkan-Tabernacle) then we are not to partake of that sacrificial TESTIMONY. Thus anyone who has dreams and or visions, and has not himself or herself been slain therein, either his dreams and visions are not yet complete, and they are not yet fully understood, or worse, that one is deceived and is a deceiver whether he knows it or not. Such a one is as a live goat, with his own blood still coursing through his veins, and his testimony is not to be consumed because it is food having been sacrificed to his idols, (and most generally those idols are the gods of money and mammon so as to make a profit for the pseudo-prophet). Understand that by slain I do not mean physical "NDE" experiences themselves, although many times these types of visions and dream-visions do come with physically catastrophic NDE events, but I rather mean that the person is slain within the vision itself: this is a genuine sign that such a one has been put down, (the old man and ancient one) and raised again in Messiah as a humble servant.

 

[NannaNae]

well maybe it is just me but , I don't trust lot of these , I have heard t many nurses talk about NDE's and most people come out of death screaming then later talking about the warm light.

so I have come to my own conclusions about dreams and vision.. and I don't repeat mine unless they are confirmed in two ways. the dream has to become become it's own double witness, only then do I know that the third interpretation and larger/ fuller / most perfect fulfillment is sure .

So when I get any kind of vision that isn't double witnessed . then I think it is a lesson for me personally from God and he is fixing my ideas of his character, or fixing my character.

So many people see something and think it is always to tell someone else something and maybe it is not.

Sometimes the dreams need time to bake and for his revelation process to reveal what he is saying . because the first or most obvious conclusion isn't always the best or only or fullest conclusion..
. Either way it is always best to let him interpret our dreams or visions. It is just kind of easy to interject ourselves and our knowledge into what he is trying to say. it is very hard to stop ourselves from doing that to the dreams he may give.
so I would like to know how these peoples dreams were witnessed , thus making them like legal tender or a legal document. I don't know how he deals with everyone else but that is what I have to do anyway and that is only what I trust. just FYI...

 

[Danoh]

2 Timothy 3:

6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Some years ago, while flipping channels, I paused for a moment to watch a Benny Hinn "sermon," and found myself experiencing what I would have defined earlier in my walk when I was Pentecostal, as being "moved by the Spirit."

No longer Pentecostal by then, I paused to reflect on what it was I was actually experiencing in light of my present understanding and realized it was just my emotions being manipulated by the soft organ music playing in the background, together with Hinn's deliberate tone.

Its amazing how much we will guess at things from erroneous ideas picked up here and there and never pause to examine said guessing and or how to properly approach examining such moments...

As the above passages relate; because we far too often want to believe such moments are what we want them to represent, by that, we open ourselves up to our own and others self-deceptions...

Colossians 2:

18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

 

[NannaNae]

dont get me wrong I do believe in hell.. that right now that hell is mankinds own falling psyche , a need greedy all consuming fire between our ears.. and that someday he puts that death and needy into a place where it can continue to be all consuming and not hurt anyone else.

the Pit is for the immortal entities who are lawlessness / like atomic kind of lawlessness that now or once has a bag of flesh and blood around it or at least became a full fledge entity .. but probably wont have anything then.

then next question is:
are the unsaved or parts of them immortal ?

truth is I don't have clue... and right now I don't care!!

I do know that there is immortality of a spirit , laws and powers and authorities such as Death that Those eternal things will go there to that pit that He will set at his feet never to be remembered again.
but is some part of the unsaved immortal ? at the first resurrection ? or at the second resurrection? I don't know !!!
now the "saved" will become immortals... which begs an interesting question or two about the very last war before the 8thday..

I don't know .. I cant figure it out.. who and what exactly all things which might be immortal at the last judgement or any judgement . instead I will trust his judgement and I will be glad I am not God! and will continue to be elated that I am not God and that I don't have to know that ! I don't plan to be there !

of course I don't spend much time worry about a pit in the future that he built to contain that which man created ...Death that empty void of the separation from his life.. !
that he rightfully created the pit to contain forces like Death and Satan and Hate and ignorance and needy and greedy empty and self consuming evil ....... but I do rather worry about myself and my own self deceptions and my own needy and greedy parts ! now that is really my business to worry about.

 

[visionary]

Boy Who Claimed He Visited Heaven Reads Bible and Recants Story; LifeWay to Pull Book From Stores

 

[DennisTate]

Boy Who Claimed He Visited Heaven Reads Bible and Recants Story; LifeWay to Pull Book From Stores

Fascinating article........ I admit that I may be biased but....... I strongly suspect that the book accurately reflects what the boy could remember when he was younger..... but as he ages and is more affected by pastors in whatever specific community he has been attending he would be tempted to think that what he saw would seem to contradict the flavor of the Christian Bible..... as understood by so many?!?!

For example...… a high percentage of Christians would be offended by the idea that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has actually been committed all judgment....... and is free to take Jews into heaven / paradise who may not have spoken a specific sentence that most of us feel must be uttered...… before we can go to heaven?!?1


Howard Storm:

I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events.// (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)
​

 

[DennisTate]

During my own NDE it was my own Baal who was speaking terrible and violent words which are not lawful for a man to utter. In the end he slew me because I would not bow the knee to him: and he was the mirror image of myself, the image of a mighty one, and he struck me down. And upon that I slept for the days, the Lazaros days, which are three and the hemi, (I was catatonic and sedated to nearly comatose). I have never given the full account anywhere and do not plan to do so because it is not really possible to adequately relate all that happened. He that endures unto the end shall be saved in the high places of the field, (if this is the way it is meant for you to go). It is an hour and a day known only to the Father. If it is true it will not confirm what a person thinks he or she already knows but rather destroy everything down the foundations for the rebuilding which must come. It seems to me that this way is only for the really wicked, (as I was even though I claimed the Name for nearly thirty years before this event). As Micaiah said, "Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt chamber in thy chamber to hide thyself."

My daughter just got me to watch this video..... he goes into some pretty powerful details of what he saw in the hospital after the five minute mark......

Herbert Broome, died of cancer within hours after this video was made. These are his last words. A message he had from God that he wanted to send to the world before he died, I am keeping my promise that I would get his message out

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, the bigger question is this: how come religious people who have NDE's almost always experience something that validates their theology?

I've heard Hasidic NDE's that read like the Tanya, and Christian ones that read like a Cathedral wall.

My theory at this time is that there are multiple Covenants operating all at the same time and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is not confused by any of them......but the big picture would boggle our minds totally.

Right now there is operation an:
Adamic Covenant
Noahic Covenant
Abrahamic Covenant
Davidic Covenant
Levitical Covenant...... and actually for all twelve tribes of Israel......

but there is probably even a Cyrus Covenant of some type and you and I do not need to know the terms of all these Covenants.... but Messiah Yeshua -Jesus sure does.

This person had a similar experience to Bill Wiese:


1 Way 2 God

 

[Deade]

I do know that there is immortality of a spirit , laws and powers and authorities such as Death that Those eternal things will go there to that pit that He will set at his feet never to be remembered again.
but is some part of the unsaved immortal ? at the first resurrection ? or at the second resurrection? I don't know !!!
now the "saved" will become immortals... which begs an interesting question or two about the very last war before the 8thday..

I don't know .. I cant figure it out.. who and what exactly all things which might be immortal at the last judgement or any judgement . instead I will trust his judgement and I will be glad I am not God! and will continue to be elated that I am not God and that I don't have to know that ! I don't plan to be there !

We can know NannaMae, God's word tells us of all His plans but we need the anointing to discern it. Nobody has immortality right now except Messiah. Those that belong to Him have His promise of immortality when He returns:
(see 1 John 2:28 & 1 Cor. 15:23) It tells us in Hebrews 11:40 "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." The Patriarchs will not precede us. They are simply asleep.

Paul warns us to take visions at face value and not make more of them than what we should (see 2 Cor. 12:2-5). My second wife had a near death experience with a vision attached, but we did not establish doctrine off that. God knew He wasn't going to leave her dead so it falls outside normal happenstance. She felt she convinced God to let her live some more, which was probably His plan already.

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, the bigger question is this: how come religious people who have NDE's almost always experience something that validates their theology?

I've heard Hasidic NDE's that read like the Tanya, and Christian ones that read like a Cathedral wall.

I am not sure if this will help to answer your question or not..... but it may????

In a sentence..... I personally am convinced that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus truly wants to BRING ALL to repentance..... and is willing to resort to drastic measures to do so?!

Can the non-elect ever be saved?

This is an exceptionally good question that has bothered me for about fifty four of my sixty years.

I actually got so turned off by a Dr. Billy Graham Hellfire And Brimstone cursade on TV back around 1965 or '66 that I became an Atheist after I was taught Evolutionary Theory in Grade three or four.

At this time I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is willing to initiate new time line after new time line after new time line....... all of which fulfill Ezekiel 37
and in each of these new time lines many of those unsaved in other time lines.... get saved.

I suspect.... but I admit that I could be wrong.... but I do suspect that the testimony of Mr. Bill Wiese may be partly based on not merely a vision..... but an actually vision of himself..... in a previous time line in which he was unsaved...... and ended up in hell.... but in our time line that fulfills Ezekiel 37 and Revelation 20.... (at least to some degree).... he is radically saved and is preaching and warning the lost all over the place?????

My apologies if I am in error and am somehow preaching a false doctrine????

Warning... this is in the Physical and Life Sciences forum where you might meet all kinds of Atheists and Agnostics who wrestle with this type of question as well......

It is my firm belief that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus the Word / Logos will resort to drastic measures to give joy to the Ancient of Days the Father..... who rejoices over even one sinner who repents........


Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

In my opinion.......
do NOT merely laugh at this man..... he really does fear Messiah Yeshua - Jesus...... and for good reason.... as can be seen in Matthew 5

Christian Forums

32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, the bigger question is this: how come religious people who have NDE's almost always experience something that validates their theology?

I've heard Hasidic NDE's that read like the Tanya, and Christian ones that read like a Cathedral wall.

My guess is multiple Covenants operating simultaneously????

Some examples of Covenants are the
1Adamic
2Enochian
3 Noahic
4 Abrahamic
5 Jacobian / Yacobian
6 A covenant for each of the Patriarchs Genesis 48 and Genesis 49

7 Davidic
8 Covenant of Solomon

9 Cyrus Covenant
10 the New Covenant ratified by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus that is better than them all but...... does not actually contradict any of the previous.... but like the serpent of Moses....... swallows them......

(Click here and then scroll up one post) :
The fatal flaw of Universalism

I could be wrong......
I often am......
my wife and any of my friends can verify that I am wrong again and again and again and again even on a daily basis but.............

an online friend has me looking at Ezekiel 37 and Revelation 20 and Romans 11 from a whole new level........
in terms of Multiverse Theory combined with non-linear time...... Multiple Ezekiel 37 events.............. that are founded on the idea of any moment in time since Adam and Eve........

serving as theoretical STAGE in which a whole new time line can be spun off...........

and........ strangely enough.........

the Calvinists could really do something with this idea if they so wished????????????????????

Does.... the Ancient of Days the Father know what will happpen in each and every one of these new time lines???????

Could Bill Wiese have been unsaved in a previous time line..... and then saved in our time line......... in which he was shown a vision of himself....... from a previous time line?????????

The obvious implications that in two, or three or a thousand new time lines...... in each of which Bill Wiese is Saved.... he may well lead more and more and more and more previously unsaved people to Salvation........ (by previously I mean in those other theoretical time lines)?!

The implications is that in more and more time lines...... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus gets to have more and more and more and more joy.... as He gives more and more joy to the Father.... over more and more sinners who are finally led to repentance...... in applied Multiverse Theory...... applied by G-d?!