Bill Weise, 23 minutes in hell and many Ezekiel 37 events??!!

[daq]

Yes....... it seems that we have to come up to a fairly high level of love....... or we are perhaps made to run again!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadion_(running_race)

On the east to west stadion circuit between the "u" and the "v" in that diagram there are fifteen degrees which are one hour of time like on the sundial of Ahaz, (because equinoctial sundials are divided into 24 hours of 15 degrees each which make the 360 degrees of a full circle, 15x24=360). Within that hour of trial one may find Lilith, Jezebel, Azazel, (a sa`iyr) and a whole assortment of companion type satyrs for the suitors, (no one will lack its mate). If you do not love the Most High with all of your heart, and with all of your mind, and with all of your soul, and with all of your strength, then you will not escape them for the strong delusion which will come, (and they are likewise neither male nor female and can appear as Adam, Noah, Peter, Paul, you name it). And forget any running of the race over again friend: make it right this time around, (when your hour comes).

 

[DennisTate]

On the east to west stadion circuit between the "u" and the "v" in that diagram there are fifteen degrees which are one hour of time like on the sundial of Ahaz, (because equinoctial sundials are divided into 24 hours of 15 degrees each which make the 360 degrees of a full circle, 15x24=360). Within that hour of trial one may find Lilith, Jezebel, Azazel, (a sa`iyr) and a whole assortment of companion type satyrs for the suitors, (no one will lack its mate). If you do not love the Most High with all of your heart, and with all of your mind, and with all of your soul, and with all of your strength, then you will not escape them for the strong delusion which will come, (and they are likewise neither male nor female and can appear as Adam, Noah, Peter, Paul, you name it). And forget any running of the race over again friend: make it right this time around, (when your hour comes).

Wow!!!

I have read that 24 hours earth time..... seem like a thousand years when viewed from the higher realms.....so in a sense..... seven hour and ten minutes or so from sunset..... would be a nighttime Yom Kippur metaphorically........ and seven hours and ten minutes or so from sunrise.... would be another one........ I wonder what might happen during those times in the hidden realms?!

 

[visionary]

Wow!!!

I have read that 24 hours earth time..... seem like a thousand years when viewed from the higher realms.....so in a sense..... seven hour and ten minutes or so from sunset..... would be a nighttime Yom Kippur metaphorically........ and seven hours and ten minutes or so from sunrise.... would be another one........ I wonder what might happen during those times in the hidden realms?!

Say that again, only explain more of where you are coming from. I got the 24 hour earth time. I got the thousand years of earth time is equal to 24 hours of heaven's time. Then you lost me.

 

[daq]

Wow!!!

I have read that 24 hours earth time..... seem like a thousand years when viewed from the higher realms.....so in a sense..... seven hour and ten minutes or so from sunset..... would be a nighttime Yom Kippur metaphorically........ and seven hours and ten minutes or so from sunrise.... would be another one........ I wonder what might happen during those times in the hidden realms?!

Perhaps when you reach the end of the race it will be as if it were 15 Tishri-Ethanim, and from there three days to the consummation; the heavens will be blacked out over Pharaoh and his armies and the hour will come, (an hour which no man knows) and perhaps then you will be stricken like Daniel and sleep for the days, that is, the Lazaros days, (three days and the hemisu). Who shall live when El doeth this!?!

 

[DennisTate]

Say that again, only explain more of where you are coming from. I got the 24 hour earth time. I got the thousand years of earth time is equal to 24 hours of heaven's time. Then you lost me.

This is just a theory…. and I may be wrong….. but if each day of earth time is symbolic of one year……. or one thousand years……… the symbolism for one year should imply that the 24 hours is equal to twelve months. This would imply that each day has a moment that is somehow connected to each of the Spring Holy Days as well as each of the annual fall Holy Days.

My idea of this happening twice per day is based on there being twelve hours per day and twelve hours per night…… I was wondering if in a sense…. each hour could perhaps connect to one month???! That connection is certainly not clearly elaborated on in any scripture…. and was a pure speculation on my part!

Sorry….. but surely there is at least one metaphorical moment each day that connects to each of the annual Sabbaths.

 

[daq]

This is just a theory…. and I may be wrong….. but if each day of earth time is symbolic of one year……. or one thousand years……… the symbolism for one year should imply that the 24 hours is equal to twelve months. This would imply that each day has a moment that is somehow connected to each of the Spring Holy Days as well as each of the annual fall Holy Days.

My idea of this happening twice per day is based on there being twelve hours per day and twelve hours per night…… I was wondering if in a sense…. each hour could perhaps connect to one month???! That connection is certainly not clearly elaborated on in any scripture…. and was a pure speculation on my part!

Sorry….. but surely there is at least one metaphorical moment each day that connects to each of the annual Sabbaths.

Are there not twelve yamiym-hours of daylights in a full yom-day?

Numbers 7:10 ~ "And the princes offered for the dedication of the altar in the yom-day it was anointed; even the princes offered their corban-offering, before the altar."

Numbers 7:84 ~ "This was the dedication of the altar, in the yom-day wherein it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold;"

Read between the lines . . .

 

[visionary]

This is just a theory…. and I may be wrong….. but if each day of earth time is symbolic of one year……. or one thousand years……… the symbolism for one year should imply that the 24 hours is equal to twelve months. This would imply that each day has a moment that is somehow connected to each of the Spring Holy Days as well as each of the annual fall Holy Days.

My idea of this happening twice per day is based on there being twelve hours per day and twelve hours per night…… I was wondering if in a sense…. each hour could perhaps connect to one month???! That connection is certainly not clearly elaborated on in any scripture…. and was a pure speculation on my part!

Sorry….. but surely there is at least one metaphorical moment each day that connects to each of the annual Sabbaths.

While it takes a thousand years of our time here on earth to add up to one day of time in the courts of heaven, I would say look at it from Heaven's view for a moment. It would just mean that the earth spun around the sun a thousand times before the day ended in heaven. That is a thousand Passovers, and all the other feasts in Heaven's Day and at lease 52000 weekly Sabbaths. If they were musical notes in one of heaven's days, then they would sing His Praise all day long.

 

[Dave-W]

I find it interesting that we think that there is some sort of 1:1 correlation between our time and eternity. Such a minset is assumed by poll option #2: the dead are utterly unconsious until the resurrection.

Why do we think that to begin with?

 

[daq]

I find it interesting that we think that there is some sort of 1:1 correlation between our time and eternity. Such a minset is assumed by poll option #2: the dead are utterly unconsious until the resurrection.

Why do we think that to begin with?

As for myself I did not vote but I would suggest that it is better to strive so as to enter into eternity in this life, and finish running the race, so that when your carcass falls by the wayside you need not concern yourself with it and let the dead bury the dead.

 

[Dave-W]

I did not vote either.

I have been in discussions with "soul sleep" adherents (mostly SDA) and those who believe we are consious between death and final judgement. BOTH groups I am at odds with because I do not necessarily believe we are all on the same chronology.

 

[daq]

I did not vote either.

I have been in discussions with "soul sleep" adherents (mostly SDA) and those who believe we are consious between death and final judgement. BOTH groups I am at odds with because I do not necessarily believe we are all on the same chronology.

Surely the soul that sins shall die. There is no way around it. Yeshua tells us what the soul concerns but it does not come through well in the renderings. If you lay her down now you will receive her back: this commandment Yeshua received from the Father, and we likewise received the same. The one who seeks to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her but the one who will apollumi-destroy his soul for the sake of the Testimony of Yeshua shall find her. What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you.

 

[Alithis]

Surely the soul that sins shall die. There is no way around it. Yeshua tells us what the soul concerns but it does not come through well in the renderings. If you lay her down now you will receive her back: this commandment Yeshua received from the Father, and we likewise received the same. The one who seeks to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her but the one who will apollumi-destroy his soul for the sake of the Testimony of Yeshua shall find her. What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you.

difine death.. there are two.

the first... when the silver cord is severed ,the wheel broken etc ,a severing of who we are from our earthen clothe...."What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you. ",...i guess,in a manner of speaking you are saying we live unto and In messiah Yeshua,as if this has already happened..by faith.it has.Calling those things which are not as though they already are...

the 2nd... a severing of coexistence with God, an everlasting separation from God ,who islife.

in between is eternal realms..should a man die then know heaven or hell,he will not know time.he will know only the moment he is in ,one eternal moment.God created time.he is not governed by it.

 

[daq]

difine death.. there are two.

the first... when the silver cord is severed ,the wheel broken etc ,a severing of who we are from our earthen clothe...."What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you. ",...i guess,in a manner of speaking you are saying we live unto and In messiah Yeshua,as if this has already happened..by faith.it has.Calling those things which are not as though they already are...

the 2nd... a severing of coexistence with God, an everlasting separation from God ,who islife.

in between is eternal realms..should a man die then know heaven or hell,he will not know time.he will know only the moment he is in ,one eternal moment.God created time.he is not governed by it.

Which "death" is this?

John 11:9-11
9. Yeshua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Yet the above happened before the resurrection wherein there was a change:

Matthew 27:51-53
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52. And the graves were opened; and a much-great body(s) of the saints which slept awoke,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and entered into the holy city, and many were having been emphanizo-exhibited, (many were exhibited or shown in the Scripture; such as king Hezekiah, who was promised that he would be "healed" and go up into the house of the Father in the Third Day).

TaNaK body of the saints: "Body of Moshe" (folded into Messiah - Matthew 27:52-53)
New Covenant body of the saints: "Body of Messiah" ~ "Body of Yeshua"

And what kind of "death" is the following?

John 11:25-26
25. Yeshua said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: him faithfully-trusting into me, though he die, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever lives and is faithfully-trusting into me shall never die. Believe thou this?

Surely the above does not concern physical death because every man sheds the body.
Which "death" then is the following in the supreme order given according to the Master-Teacher?

Matthew 24:4-13
4. And Yeshua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [of] the Messiah; and shall deceive many.
6. And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for the sake of my name.
10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These are the order of events Yeshua expounds to all of his talmidim:

1) Many false prophets shall come saying "I am the Messiah" or "I am of the Messiah" and shall deceive many.
2) Spiritual warfare and reports of spiritual warfare but the end is yet for the appointed time.
3) Heathen upon heathen and dominion upon dominion, (Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11:35).
4) Fastings and famines of the Word with manquakes-seismos according to those places.
5) These are the beginning of birth pang-odin-throes: a son is about to be born into the Kingdom.
6) THEN ALL THE HEATHEN SHALL HATE YOU, DELIVER YOU UP, AND KILL YOU.
7) Many shall betray one another and many more false prophets shall arise.
8) BUT HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END SHALL BE SAVED.

So which "death" is number six in the above order of events?
It cannot be physical death if this is spoken to all talmidim of Yeshua . . .

Mark 13:31-37
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch!

 

[DennisTate]

Which "death" is this?

John 11:9-11
9. Yeshua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Yet the above happened before the resurrection wherein there was a change:

Matthew 27:51-53
51. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52. And the graves were opened; and a much-great body(s) of the saints which slept awoke,
53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and entered into the holy city, and many were having been emphanizo-exhibited, (many were exhibited or shown in the Scripture; such as king Hezekiah, who was promised that he would be "healed" and go up into the house of the Father in the Third Day).

TaNaK body of the saints: "Body of Moshe" (folded into Messiah - Matthew 27:52-53)
New Covenant body of the saints: "Body of Messiah" ~ "Body of Yeshua"

And what kind of "death" is the following?

John 11:25-26
25. Yeshua said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: him faithfully-trusting into me, though he die, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever lives and is faithfully-trusting into me shall never die. Believe thou this?

Surely the above does not concern physical death because every man sheds the body.
Which "death" then is the following in the supreme order given according to the Master-Teacher?

Matthew 24:4-13
4. And Yeshua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [of] the Messiah; and shall deceive many.
6. And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for the sake of my name.
10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

These are the order of events Yeshua expounds to all of his talmidim:

1) Many false prophets shall come saying "I am the Messiah" or "I am of the Messiah" and shall deceive many.
2) Spiritual warfare and reports of spiritual warfare but the end is yet for the appointed time.
3) Heathen upon heathen and dominion upon dominion, (Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11:35).
4) Fastings and famines of the Word with manquakes-seismos according to those places.
5) These are the beginning of birth pang-odin-throes: a son is about to be born into the Kingdom.
6) THEN ALL THE HEATHEN SHALL HATE YOU, DELIVER YOU UP, AND KILL YOU.
7) Many shall betray one another and many more false prophets shall arise.
8) BUT HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END SHALL BE SAVED.

So which "death" is number six in the above order of events?
It cannot be physical death if this is spoken to all talmidim of Yeshua . . .

Mark 13:31-37
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch!

Technically........... could it be that the silver cord connecting the soul - consciousness of Lazarus to his body........ had actually not been severed yet?

Quite a few near death experiencers did report seeing a silver cord connecting them in the out of the body state to their physical body .... either at the heard or solar plexus........that was below them.....and flatlined?!

 

[Alithis]

its nothing so technical
it is a reference of comfort to us in the present time .to refer to the departed as ones sleeping because their body lays in the grave as ones body lays when it is sleeping .
those who have died and returned testify that they are aware and active but outside of the limits of time .
those who have not died..cant testify

 

[Norbert L]

Back in 1965 or '66 when I was 6 or 7 years old I heard a hellfire and brimstone sermon by Dr. Billy Graham and was well prepared to become an atheist after hearing evolutionary theory taught in Grade 2.

Around '72 I heard Evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong elaborate on the "soul sleep" theory and I became interested in the Bible again.

I had never been forced to go to church so did not even attend church until I did so voluntarily after listening to Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong for several years.

In 1990 I began to read NDE accounts and I was tossed into a pretty serious philosophical/theological crisis to find out that the "soul sleep" theory is almost certainly in error.

At this time I have concluded that Ezekiel 37 is not limited to being a one time event... but instead G-d is free to replicate moments in what we think of as the past.... spin off a new future much as Hollywood plays around with in many movies....... and so........ a fallen Bill Wiese from one branch of time..... can be shown himself in a previous branch of time...... and be inspired to become a powerful and dedicated evangelist...... in this branch of time??????!!!!!!!!!

The problem with that is there is a timeline, whether a person has a NDE or another who has ND without that experience. The two but differing memories happen during the time of clinical death.

The way I see it, ideas associated with this topic range between reasonable speculation to such shear fantasy that it sounds believable.

 

[DennisTate]

The problem with that is there is a timeline, whether a person has a NDE or another who has ND without that experience. The two but differing memories happen during the time of clinical death.

The way I see it, ideas associated with this topic range between reasonable speculation to such shear fantasy that it sounds believable.

True….. but I am running into evidence from some other sources that might tend to verify this idea.


"You seek to know and walk in My power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not even begun to comprehend the power of My word. To RESURRECT ALL THE DEAD WHO EVER LIVED ON EARTH WILL NOT EVEN CAUSE ME TO STRAIN. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it is held together by My word." (Rick Joyner, page 176, The Vision, emphasis mine)

"Remember the potential for even the least of My little ones to touch the heart of the Father. That alone makes their value greater than any price. I WOULD HAVE GONE TO THE CROSS AGAIN FOR A SINGLE ONE OF THESE. I also feel your pain. I know your trials because we share them. I feel the pain and the joy of every soul. That is why I still intercede continually for all of you. There will be a time when all tears will be wiped away from every eye. There will be a time when only joy is known again. Until then, pain can be used. Do not waste your trials. Your greatest worship and the greatest expression of your faith that pleases Us will come in the midst of your trials." Rick Joyner.... The Vision, page 210, emphasis mine)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7695357/
Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????
This would seem to correspond with the Creator actually having thought up and choreographed an infinite number of Big Events over infinite time in the past as some physicists seem to believe has been the case!

Investing infinite time in the creation....would certainly tend to give the Creator a greater emotional attachment to all of us than we can begin to imagine...considering how young we are.

“When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Father’s heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here,but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

“Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep.Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.” (Pastor Rick Joyner, chapter 15, page 85, The Vision)

TheVision The Final Quest the Call RickJoyner PDF

 

[Norbert L]

True….. but I am running into evidence from some other sources that might tend to verify this idea. ...


TheVision The Final Quest the Call RickJoyner PDF

And when running into evidence from some other sources that tend to discredit that idea, it becomes like a crapshoot. I'd rather use the guidance of Is 8:20 and be intellectually honest between distinguishing the searchable and the unsearchable. Ro 11:33 Also, there's no shame in saying "I don't understand" for topics like this.

Besides Rick Joyner is just a man and they'll be a day when he will find out the status of the ideas he is promoting now. In the meantime I just don't buy into his word.

 

[DennisTate]

Surely the soul that sins shall die. There is no way around it. Yeshua tells us what the soul concerns but it does not come through well in the renderings. If you lay her down now you will receive her back: this commandment Yeshua received from the Father, and we likewise received the same. The one who seeks to save his soul shall apollumi-destroy her but the one who will apollumi-destroy his soul for the sake of the Testimony of Yeshua shall find her. What you do by mortifying her and her deeds now is to change the order of the first and second deaths. If you do not change the order and let her die off now then the second death will kill you.

Daq… do you personally believe in the "soul sleep" doctrine?

I used to…. but certainly don't at this time.

 

[DennisTate]

The problem with that is there is a timeline, whether a person has a NDE or another who has ND without that experience. The two but differing memories happen during the time of clinical death.

The way I see it, ideas associated with this topic range between reasonable speculation to such shear fantasy that it sounds believable.

Have you ever read the NDE account of Dr. George Ritchie?

His experience occurred back in 1943 long before Stephen Hawking Ph. D. and others made String Theory rather common knowledge…. but Dr. Ritchie perfectly describes how the fifth dimension would be invislbe to the fourth… the sixth dimension would be invisible to both the fourth and fifth dimension… .and on and on for about eleven dimensions.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience