"Biden Deserves Credit, Not Blame, for Afghanistan"

Sketcher · Sep 2, 2021

wing2000 said:
The same Afghan government whose leader fled the country without even informing his inner circle? It's clear by now that the entire US government massively over estimated the resolve of the Afghan government and underestimated the Taliban's ability to negotiate their way into Kabul. For better or worse, both American Presidents made the wrong bet by relying on the Afghan government. Neither Trump nor Biden were going to insert 20-30k (or likely more) troops to start re-fighting the Taliban directly. Nor did Biden have an option to insert forces after the US government realized Kabul would fall. Operationally, it was impossible to move that many US combat troops into Kabul in that timeframe. There were no options other than to rely on the Taliban for security - and in turn, the US was subject to their terms for who would evacuate and for how long. So yea, that was the ugly reality in August...and despite all the challenges, many Afghans were evacuated. Now, let's see if the American people will welcome them...or will they become yet another political pawn of the Stephen Miller wing of the Republican party....

My criticism of Biden in this is that he was pledging this support after it was all beginning to unravel and he continued the withdrawal of our military which was the only support the Afghans knew.

I don't see how anything beyond US military boots on the ground would be real support to the Afghans who worked with us and the Afghan women and girls. I don't see how they would see it any other way. And I'm calling him out on this because he said specifically that he would support them when it was all falling apart and he continued the withdrawal anyway.

rjs330 · Sep 3, 2021

Biden totally botched this. Leaving all the civilians behind as well as the military hardware. There were still Americans trying to get out when they left.

rambot · Sep 3, 2021

Trump adviser Stephen Miller warned of 'Iraqs and 'Stans' in the US while slow-walking the entry of Afghan allies - CNNPolitics

WAIT! The not-so-closet racist DIDn't want coloured folks that the US bombed coming to live there?

Ana the Ist · Sep 4, 2021

Fantine said:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...rves-credit-not-blame-for-afghanistan/619925/

I respect people who do the right thing even when it's not the popular thing. No other president had the courage to disentangle us from Afghanistan, including the Trump officials who strengthened the Taliban with their concessions and left Biden to clean up the mess.

I agree that no one predicted that the 300,000 man Afghan Army, trained and financed by the U.S., would collapse within days--even when we left equipment there to help them defend their government. And I put the blame on them. It is completely illogical to think that 300,000 American trained and funded soldiers with billions of dollars of high powered equpment could cave in a week.

They had predicted that scenario years before Biden, they relied completely upon the US.

Regardless though, let's look at some graphics....

You may have learned this was happening a week ago, but Biden should have known since May. I think it's extremely generous to just say he bungled this and did an awful job.

The more accurate way to put it is the deaths of probably thousands of our Afghan allies is on the head of a sputtering drooling fool who can barely find the podium on a good day.

SoldierOfTheKing · Sep 4, 2021

wing2000 said:
I agree.

The question every American must ask themselves is:

Why did we allow our political leaders to keep our troops in Afghanistan so long?

All voting Americans are accountable.

In three consecutive presidential elections - 2008, 2012 and 2016 - the candidate who called for pulling out of Afghanistan defeated the one that advocated staying in. Yet the US stayed in...

SoldierOfTheKing · Sep 5, 2021

It may well be the case that the disastrous implementation of the pullout wasn't Biden's fault. I suspect it was just incompetent American military leadership. This is what I do fault Biden for: he didn't fire anybody over this, by which he declares that he considers than manner in which the pullout was conducted to be perfectly acceptable to him.

I can't say with certainty that with Trump in the White House the pullout wouldn't have gone just as badly. What I can say with confidence it that if it had, heads would have rolled. There would at least have been accountability.

I can give Biden this much credit: as badly as this withdrawal went, it was preferable to keeping the troops in. So yes, Biden's handling of Afghanistan, bad as it was, certainly could have been worse. Is that enough?

RDKirk · Sep 5, 2021

SoldierOfTheKing said:
It may well be the case that the disastrous implementation of the pullout wasn't Biden's fault. I suspect it was just incompetent American military leadership. This is what I do fault Biden for: he didn't fire anybody over this, by which he declares that he considers than manner in which the pullout was conducted to be perfectly acceptable to him.

I think it's more like the situation of Daniel counting his troops. I don't think there is any way in the world the military planned this themselves, such as withdrawing at the end of summer rather than in the winter. Or attempting a withdrawal with reduced military forces--that goes against all military knowledge; if they had planned it, they would have plused up forces first, because withdrawals are always especially vulnerable actions.

wing2000 · Sep 5, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
They had predicted that scenario years before Biden, they relied completely upon the US.

Regardless though, let's look at some graphics....

View attachment 305426

You may have learned this was happening a week ago, but Biden should have known since May. I think it's extremely generous to just say he bungled this and did an awful job.

The more accurate way to put it is the deaths of probably thousands of our Afghan allies is on the head of a sputtering drooling fool who can barely find the podium on a good day.

Let's say, for sake of argument, the US recognized advances made by the Taliban would lead to Kabul falling in a matter of weeks as opposed to months. What could Biden do, say, starting in April?

Ana the Ist · Sep 5, 2021

wing2000 said:
Let's say, for sake of argument, the US recognized advances made by the Taliban would lead to Kabul falling in a matter of weeks as opposed to months. What could Biden do, say, starting in April?

You're asking me what could have been done in a worse scenario than the one that happened?

wing2000 · Sep 5, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
You're asking me what could have been done in a worse scenario than the one that happened?

I am asking you what could have been done had the US government recognized Kabul was likely to fall within weeks.

Pommer · Sep 5, 2021

wing2000 said:
I am asking you what could have been done had the US government recognized Kabul was likely to fall within weeks.

You mean after Donald Trump ~~eviscerated~~ pared-down the fat in the civil-service?
Why lightning quick, whatever the task!

Ana the Ist · Sep 6, 2021

wing2000 said:
I am asking you what could have been done had the US government recognized Kabul was likely to fall within weeks.

It didn't fall "within weeks". There were massive Taliban incursions in Afghanistan well before August.

wing2000 · Sep 6, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
It didn't fall "within weeks". There were massive Taliban incursions in Afghanistan well before August.

Sure, the Taliban were taking control of some areas in 2020/21. That isn't the point...and
I see you are avoiding the question I asked - twice now. Have a nice day.

Ana the Ist · Sep 6, 2021

wing2000 said:
Sure, the Taliban were taking control of some areas in 2020/21. That isn't the point...and
I see you are avoiding the question I asked - twice now. Have a nice day.

I don't think you had a point.

I asked if you were talking about a fictional scenario.

Instead of just saying "yes...I'm making up nonsense and asking about it"....you repeated "blah blah blah something something weeks".

I pointed out they had a lot more time than mere weeks.

If you want to make up a fictional story and ask about it, that's fine, but it's a fictional story. It doesn't have any relevance.

High Fidelity · Sep 6, 2021

In reality the majority of Americans criticising Biden likely couldn’t care less what happens to Afghans, they’re simply using this to attack Biden.

wing2000 · Sep 6, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
I don't think you had a point.

I asked if you were talking about a fictional scenario.

Instead of just saying "yes...I'm making up nonsense and asking about it"....you repeated "blah blah blah something something weeks".

I pointed out they had a lot more time than mere weeks.

If you want to make up a fictional story and ask about it, that's fine, but it's a fictional story. It doesn't have any relevance.

...the premise was clear on the first post.

wing2000 · Sep 6, 2021

Ana the Ist said:
They had predicted that scenario years before Biden, they relied completely upon the US.

Regardless though, let's look at some graphics....

View attachment 305426

You may have learned this was happening a week ago, but Biden should have known since May. I think it's extremely generous to just say he bungled this and did an awful job.

The more accurate way to put it is the deaths of probably thousands of our Afghan allies is on the head of a sputtering drooling fool who can barely find the podium on a good day.

....i'll ask in a different way.

On April 13th, assuming Biden knew the Afghan government was going to collapse, what should he have done?

Ana the Ist · Sep 6, 2021

wing2000 said:
....i'll ask in a different way.

On April 13th, assuming Biden knew the Afghan government was going to collapse, what should he have done?

Evacuate everyone we owed possible. Even if it required the risk of unvetted Afghans waiting in detention centers, they would have been safer there than in the hands of the Taliban.

"Biden Deserves Credit, Not Blame, for Afghanistan"

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