Biblical Truth Matters

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Makes true statements about Sabbath and the law that you can prove with scriptures when questioned.

1.God's covenants contain the righteous requirements He required His people to follow.

2.When God gave the law as a covenant, the Sabbath is the sign of that covenant.

3.The New Covenant does not have Sabbath as the sign of that covenant.

4.The Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant are eternal covenants.

5.The Mosaic Covenant is not an eternal covenant.

6. Jeremiah 31:31-34 God promised a New Covenant unlike the one given at Sinai.

7. Paul made it crystal clear that the law was added to the Abrahamic covenant because the people the people were sinning after freedom from Egypt.

8. The law was would serve until the seed would come.
 

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
1.God's covenants contain the righteous requirements He required His people to follow.

The law was a given covenant to declare righteousness to those who observe it or death to those who did not.

Deu 6:24 - And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deu 6:25 - And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.


Paul makes it clear below that "NOW"(after the cross) righteousness is no longer by the law according to the testimony of Moses and Jeremiah (the law and the prophets)

Righteousness Through Faith is the New Covenant
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Seems pretty clear that; to both the circumcised (those who have the law) and the uncircumcised (Gentile nations who were never under the law), God way of righteousness is now by faith. This fact fulfills the covenant promise in Jer 31:31-34 saying"
Jer 31:32 - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Being created in the image of God means you have the propensity to do righteousness or to sin. The scriptures makes it clear that sin was in the world before law was given. You cant reject scriptures for false reasoning. Even Pharaoh knew that adultery was wrong, so your reasoning is questionable at best.
Paul called the doctrine of sin an "elementary doctrine". Rom 1 is where he begins to teach it. Take notice that he will distinguish between those who have the law and those who were not given the law, in Romans chapter 2.


Rom 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Rom 1:19 - For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 - For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,
Rom 1:21 - For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 - and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
copyChkboxOff.gif
Rom 1:24 - Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 - because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 - For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 - and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 - They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
[URL='https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/rom/1/30/s_1047030']Rom 1:30 - slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31- foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 - Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

[/URL]
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bob S
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Romans 2 goes on to explain “ for as many who have sinned without the law shall perish without the law.” This mean that: not having the law does not keep you from going to hell. Sin is what sends everyone to hell.

SDA establishes 1john 3:4 as a premise, by saying "sin is transgression of the law." The correct transliteration says “sin is lawlessness”. This does not establish the idea of “no law no sin”. So John is simply saying: sin is acting out like there is no law.

Let scripture establish your understanding.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bob S
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus kept the Sinai law and in Matt 5 He is telling the Jews that the law would remain until all is fulfilled. Paul wrote that the Sinai law was fulfilled. Before the Sinai covenant was given by God He explained that it was an "if" covenant. If Israel would not break the covenant it would remain. Israel broke the "IF" covenant, so the covenant does not remain. Jesus fulfilled it. Paul testifies in many of his writings. It is plainly stated in Gal 3:19 and 2Cor3:7-11. Those who choose to not honor what Jesus did for mankind by going back to the law of sin and death are denying Jesus work while on this Earth.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
What makes it a sin for me to sleep with another man's wife if the Law is done way with? What justification does God have for condemning me for such an act if there is no Law against it?
Before Cain killed Abel, God explained sin, as something waiting at the door, that desires to come out and rule over you, but you must rule over it.
James explained Sin this same way;
Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I think you believe "no law no sin"..... based on using 1John 3:4 as a premise.
Fact is every man that God has created could be tempted and chose to sin or not, whether there is a law or not.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Makes true statements about Sabbath and the law that you can prove with scriptures when questioned.

1.God's covenants contain the righteous requirements He required His people to follow.

2.When God gave the law as a covenant, the Sabbath is the sign of that covenant.

True.


3.The New Covenant does not have Sabbath as the sign of that covenant.

False. That is creative writing not exegesis of Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in fact not scripture.

Exegesis of that New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 demands that the moral law of God that is written on the heart in Jeremiah 31 includes what Jeremiah and his readers knew it would include - God's TEN Commandments.

As even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of faith freely admit.
 
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
True.




False. That is creative writing not exegesis of Jeremiah 31:31-33 and in fact not scripture.

Exegesis of that New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 demands that the moral law of God that is written on the heart in Jeremiah 31 includes what Jeremiah and his readers knew it would include - God's TEN Commandments.

As even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of faith freely admit.
It appears that the Holy Ghost who is the witness to what God said in Jer 31:31-34 makes it clear that God would put "His laws"(plural) not "His Law" (singular) meaning the ten commandments.

Heb 10:15
- Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[URL='https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/10/16/s_1143016']Heb 10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;[/URL]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,352
10,607
Georgia
✟912,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It appears that the Holy Ghost who is the witness to what God said in Jer 31:31-34 makes it clear that God would put "His laws"(plural) not "His Law" (singular) meaning the ten commandments.

Heb 10:15
- Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Were you about to quote the New Covenant text from Jeremiah and Hebrews 8:6-12?

Exegesis demands that we "admit" that the LAW that Jeremiah and his readers would have known as "defining what sin is" - included the TEN Commandments.

Irrefutable.

And with that --

==========================


Rom 3:19-21 - released from the condemnation of the law -- is to not be "under the law". Because all the world "is guilty before God" as sinners - "under the law"
Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law"
Heb 8:6-12 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind"

The relationship of the LOST toward the LAW -- is that they must die
and in Christ "all are buried in baptism" Romans 6. No longer "slaves to sin".

But the relationship of the "saved" is the NEW Covenant and so then "LAW of God written on heart and mind"

1 John 3:4 'Sin IS transgression of the LAW" even after the cross.
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 John 5:2-3 "this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"
Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother for this is the first Commandment With a promise" in that still valid - distinct unit of TEN

The LAW condemns all the world as sinners and 'the wages of sin is death' but in Christ we are made to die to the law - and "the certificate of debt is nailed to the cross' Col 2:16 - paying our debt owed by sin.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Makes true statements about Sabbath and the law that you can prove with scriptures when questioned.

1.God's covenants contain the righteous requirements He required His people to follow.

2.When God gave the law as a covenant, the Sabbath is the sign of that covenant.

3.The New Covenant does not have Sabbath as the sign of that covenant.

4.The Abrahamic Covenant and New Covenant are eternal covenants.

5.The Mosaic Covenant is not an eternal covenant.

6. Jeremiah 31:31-34 God promised a New Covenant unlike the one given at Sinai.

7. Paul made it crystal clear that the law was added to the Abrahamic covenant because the people the people were sinning after freedom from Egypt.

8. The law was would serve until the seed would come.

The Sabbath is the one command God specifically commanded to remember, yet it is the one that you specifically want to forget. God's righteousness is eternal, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness existed before God made any covenants with man, so it is therefore not dependent on any particular covenant, though it has been revealed through them. Likewise, sin was in the world before the Law was given, so the Law did not change the way to practice righteousness or to avoid practicing sin, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to practice righteousness and a covenant agreement to follow those instructions. Those instructions will always be valid as long as God's righteousness remains eternal, so anyone who wants to find out how to practice righteousness can do so by reading God's eternal instructions for the in the Mosaic Law regardless of what covenant they are under, but as part of the New Covenant, those who do not follow those instructions are not children of God (1 John 3:10). So while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal righteousness and His eternal instructions for how to reflect His righteousness did not become obsolete along with it.

In Luke 16:16, Jesus said that the Law and the Prophets were until John and that since then the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached, namely to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand. The Mosaic Law is how the people knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Neither John nor Jesus came with the message that the Law has been done away with and repentance is no longer necessary, but rather they both taught repentance, so clearly Jesus was not speaking about the Law ending with John. Jesus went on in Luke 16:17 to say that it would be easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least part to disappear from the Law and in Luke 16:18 to teach obedience to the Law. As such, I see no good grounds to interpret saying that the law was until the seed would come as speaking about the Law ending with Jesus. Now that Jesus has come we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to the Law according to what Jesus taught by word and by example.

Jesus taught how to keep the Sabbath through His interactions with the Pharisees. However, he was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which means that he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, including keeping the Sabbath throughout his ministry, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of Him (1 Corinthians 11:1). Following Jesus is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles to, but Gentiles can't follow him by refusing to repent and follow the Law that he followed and taught his followers to obey by word and by example.

In Colossians 2:16, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with Christ's example, they were being judged by those teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body (Colossians 2:16), and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God. In Acts 15:21, it has the understanding that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which straightforwardly includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3).

In Jeremiah 31:33-34, it says that the New Covenant involves God writing His Law on our heart, so while it is true that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, the difference is not in regard to God's eternal Law, but rather as those verses describe, the difference is in regard no longer having man as a mediator and in regard to being based on better promises, which is exactly how Hebrews 8:6 describes the differences.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
1.God's covenants contain the righteous requirements He required His people to follow.

The law was a given covenant to declare righteousness to those who observe it or death to those who did not.

Deu 6:24 - And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deu 6:25 - And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.


Paul makes it clear below that "NOW"(after the cross) righteousness is no longer by the law according to the testimony of Moses and Jeremiah (the law and the prophets)

Righteousness Through Faith is the New Covenant
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Seems pretty clear that; to both the circumcised (those who have the law) and the uncircumcised (Gentile nations who were never under the law), God way of righteousness is now by faith. This fact fulfills the covenant promise in Jer 31:31-34 saying"
Jer 31:32 - Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith is the same way we are. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law and obedience to God's instructions is straightforwardly about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with having a willingness to obey God's instructions, such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith. In Romans 1:8, it spoke about their faith being reported all over the world and how else do you report someone's faith if not by speaking about the actions that they took because of their faith, as Hebrews 11 does? In James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God's Law is one faith looks like, and obedience to the Law should be thought of as in act of faith. So in Deuteronomy 6:24, righteousness would be theirs if they were careful to obey all of God's commands because they were acting in faith in keeping the with preceding verses. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also require us to be careful to obey all of God's commands.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, thinking that righteousness came through obedience to the Law was precisely the misunderstanding of its goal that caused them to fail to obtain righteousness. They had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God comes only through faith in Christ, so they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Law as though righteousness were by faith, for Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:4-10, this faith quotes Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us to obey and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord.

In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of law are of works whereas he said that our faith does not abolish God's Law, but rather our faith upholds God's Law, so again God's Law is of faith. However, you faith does not uphold God's Law, but you faith faith seek to abolish it, as though you think God can't be trusted to give good laws for your own good and to bless you.
 
Upvote 0

Marco70

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
1,028
261
76
bulawayo
✟22,537.00
Country
Zimbabwe
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What makes it a sin for me to sleep with another man's wife if the Law is done way with? What justification does God have for condemning me for such an act if there is no Law against it?
Christ is the end of the law, unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4

Christ is not the end of the law full stop! But unto righteousness
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marco70

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2018
1,028
261
76
bulawayo
✟22,537.00
Country
Zimbabwe
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Were you about to quote the New Covenant text from Jeremiah and Hebrews 8:6-12?

Exegesis demands that we "admit" that the LAW that Jeremiah and his readers would have known as "defining what sin is" - included the TEN Commandments.

Irrefutable.

And with that --

Exegesis of the core foundation upon which the New Covenant stands is good!


“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

The law God desires a believer to follow is written in their mind by the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion. You in your mind must know in your mind what has been placed there. Irrefutable!!
The law is also placed in your heart. You must want to follow/obey what is in your heart, also irrefutable!!"
So under the core terms of the NC, the true believer-who has been born again instinctively knows how God wants them to live, and in their heart they want to live that way. Also irrefutable!!
Because, and only because this is true, the true believers sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. For they are not righteousness of observing the law. Rom 1:17, Rom 3:19-21, Rom 6:14, Rom 10:4, Gal 2:21, Phil3:9, Gal 2:14-16, etc.

How so? They have a saviour from their sin. He died for them at Calvary
 
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,992
2,068
✟99,143.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Exegesis of the core foundation upon which the New Covenant stands is good!


“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

The law God desires a believer to follow is written in their mind by the Holy Spirit at the point of conversion. You in your mind must know in your mind what has been placed there. Irrefutable!!
The law is also placed in your heart. You must want to follow/obey what is in your heart, also irrefutable!!"
So under the core terms of the NC, the true believer-who has been born again instinctively knows how God wants them to live, and in their heart they want to live that way. Also irrefutable!!
Because, and only because this is true, the true believers sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. For they are not righteousness of observing the law. Rom 1:17, Rom 3:19-21, Rom 6:14, Rom 10:4, Gal 2:21, Phil3:9, Gal 2:14-16, etc.

How so? They have a saviour from their sin. He died for them at Calvary
Very well spoken. As we know, some believe the ten commandments are the law written on the heart.
 
Upvote 0