Biblical sufficiency vs Modern Questions?

[Jamdoc]

I think it was Timothy who was told to drink a little wine for medical purposes (or maybe it was Paul.) I'd have to look it up.

We can use substances that have a potentially intoxicating affect for medical reasons. Just because it's modern day doesn't change that simple fact because we can apply that same principle to any of our modern medicines.

We have to be careful with anything we do use, and avoid any potential overuse or excess beyond strict need.

Things like marijuana I would do serious research on. There are no end of studies and scholarly articles telling you that in cases of pain and mental health it can actually make a patient worse over time, rather than better, and these studies are being drowned out and shouted down, in this atmosphere which is pushing for legalization.

UNSW study finds no strong evidence that cannabis reduces chronic pain

^^^ 4 year study shows pain may actually increase, make pain less manageable and does not decrease the need for the use of opiates for pain control in pain patients.

Mental Health - The Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids - NCBI Bookshelf

^^ can increase risk for serious psychiatric illness.

There is a lot of negative out there, so I would caution jumping on any bandwagon.

As far as the sufficiency of scripture, there is enough we can extrapolate from scripture to provide us a balanced Christian life in any age, because there's nothing new under the sun. (Thats in the Bible too.)

People haven't changed... we are still just as human.

Studies are going to conflict remember when Eggs were bad now they're good again? it's part of the nature of science is that it's just the best we can come up with with the current information we have.
It seems though that there's a dose dependency involved when it comes to cannabinoids. Too little obviously doesn't give a threshold dose that is effective, too much can intensify sensitivity to pain, but a moderate dose is effective.
I can say as a patient using it to treat autoimmune diseases (along with other prescribed medications that just aren't enough on their own) that that's how it feels when I have to search for a new strain because I can't find the one that works. Too much THC can actually make me more aware of the pain I'm in especially if there's too little CBD along side it, pure CBD with basically no THC is just ineffective, but the right balance can put me into remission but maintain most mental clarity (the strain that works for me best is about 4-7% THC and 11-15% CBD, strains that dispensaries advertise as CBD strains often have 0-1% THC and 15-20% CBD that just don't do much of anything and the high THC strains will have 20+% THC and 0-1% CBD and are useless for anything other than getting intoxicated, and can actually just make me more aware of the pain, so I avoid those). To me it at least tells me, along with the data that THC potency has skyrockted in the last few decades, that God intended the plaint to have lower THC, higher CBD ratios to be used as medicine, but humans perverted it and abuse it.
But it not being in the bible.. makes it hard to really have a backing on that that I can trust.

 

[JIMINZ]

I was just meaning putting boundaries on God, and if you have a problem that's not within those boundaries, where do you even go?

OK to make it simple.

You cannot put God into a box, or hold Him to some standard of opperation which we devise to define how God works.

Take your example in the OP if there was someone who had Cancer and they took medical Marijuana for pain and nausea.

Going to the Bible First.
There are a number of instances where Jesus Healed ALL MANNER of Illness, Disease.

The Christian should seek out Healing, if there isn't anyone capable of Praying an effectual Prayer for their Healing, then they should seek out whatever means possible to help them.

 

[Al Touthentop]

That is just one example but there are others that in modern life, the bible just doesn't seem to address.

You addressed it just fine it looked like. How was the bible not sufficient?

It's hard to me to adhere to biblical sufficiency when I come to a situation and think "what does the bible say about (x)?" and the answer is nothing, it says nothing, so it doesn't help as a guide there and all I can go with are human opinions and leaps of logic which are never consistent.

The example you gave was answered perfectly well by you. So what situation can you not answer? Seems like you would need to provide an 'unanswerable' situation before you could say the bible is not sufficient wouldn't you?

 

[Jamdoc]

You addressed it just fine it looked like. How was the bible not sufficient?


The example you gave was answered perfectly well by you. So what situation can you not answer? Seems like you would need to provide an 'unanswerable' situation before you could say the bible is not sufficient wouldn't you?

How did I answer it? The choice there is use a drug that inebriates you as a side effect which is commanded against, or suffer in a lot of pain to a point where it is all you can think about which is just as mentally incapacitating as drug intoxication.

 

[Al Touthentop]

How did I answer it? The choice there is use a drug that inebriates you as a side effect which is commanded against, or suffer in a lot of pain to a point where it is all you can think about which is just as mentally incapacitating as drug intoxication.

The command was: be not drunk with wine, which is dissipation - a lack of self control. Paul wrote that not to say that drinking wine was a sin but to note that when one became drunk he opens himself up to both a loss of control over himself in the moment and the potential continual loss of control when the practice becomes habitual. This loss of control leads to sin. It isn't the pleasurable side effects but the loss of control that is the problem. He later counseled Timothy to have some wine. Obviously taking mind altering substances is not in and of itself a sin.

In Genesis, God told Noah that the green herbs were all his to consume. There are plenty of herbs that are mind-altering. Valarian is a good example. It's not mentioned specifically in the bible but it is a great for insomniacs. Valium is made from that herb. God specifically says to Noah that he gave him authority to eat all of the animals and that he had given him them all 'as the green herbs.' So they were all equally allowed.

So, the same would apply to pot. When one does not lose control, there's no sin in using it.

The bible does not have to address every modern named vice or virtue to be sufficient.

 

[Jamdoc]

The command was: be not drunk with wine, which is dissipation - a lack of self control. Paul wrote that not to say that drinking wine was a sin but to note that when one became drunk he opens himself up to both a loss of control over himself in the moment and the potential continual loss of control when the practice becomes habitual. This loss of control leads to sin. It isn't the pleasurable side effects but the loss of control that is the problem. He later counseled Timothy to have some wine. Obviously taking mind altering substances is not in and of itself a sin.

In Genesis, God told Noah that the green herbs were all his to consume. There are plenty of herbs that are mind-altering. Valarian is a good example. It's not mentioned specifically in the bible but it is a great for insomniacs. Valium is made from that herb. God specifically says to Noah that he gave him authority to eat all of the animals and that he had given him them all 'as the green herbs.' So they were all equally allowed.

So, the same would apply to pot. When one does not lose control, there's no sin in using it.

The bible does not have to address every modern named vice or virtue to be sufficient.

That's one of those leaps of logic and human opinions I'm talking about and if you ask another Christian they'll say "no way" and have a different justifcation for why it's never okay even medically. It's just much easier to feel you have the proper authority (God's authority) on a subject when He is explicit on it. Like getting drunk on alcohol (which some people think drinking alcohol at all is bad and claim that 'wine' in the bible is just grape juice not always fermented), is an absolute no. Fornication is an absolute no. Although, the punishment for fornication is generally just to make it right, pay the dowry and marry the girl Exodus 22:16-17. But see there. just clear as can be no needing to guess or make leaps of logic. Flee fornication, and if you fornicate here's a clear punishment. You can never be wrong if you say to someone "don't have sex with someone if you're not married, and if you do, you have to marry them and can never divorce them" because that's just what the bible says.
It'd be nice to have that kind of authoritative statement on everything.

 

[DamianWarS]

A lot of pastors and Christians believe in the doctrine of biblical sufficiency, but often times they get asked questions that the bible just does not directly address and the best they can do is to go on a general principle.
One that comes up a lot is should a Christian use Medical Marijuana, or even should a Christian use Marijuana recreationally. While when the law in the US was that it was strictly illegal, that was an easy question to answer because Romans 13 teaches us to abide by the laws of the land, even the secular ones, because God put that authority in place. But now states and even some countries like Canada are legalizing it even for recreational use. Then it becomes more of a stretch and many cite scripture about sorcery and justify that the word for sorcery is the same as pharmacy, but isn't directly related, or scripture referring to alcohol and making a stretch to make it cover all intoxicants, or just the commands to be sober minded in general.
Now as far as recreational goes, they're probably right along the lines of needing to be sober minded. But when it comes to medical use it becomes murky, because a person might be using opioid pain relievers truly just to alleviate severe pain, not to get intoxicated but intoxication is a side effect. They may have use of marijuana when other pharmaceutical agents have failed for various conditions, chronic pain and inflammation, seizure disorders, as an adjunct to chemotherapy in cancer, etc.
so as a Christian you're in a bind. Do you use the medication that helps with medical symptoms that your doctor has prescribed for you, or do you obey the command to be sober minded even if you're in so much pain that it distracts you from all other things (which is in a way, also not being sober minded, you can't focus on God when your focus is pretty much railroaded on pleasure that does not come from God, OR on pain). The bible doesn't really address it, and faith leaders and pastors you may ask, can only give their opinions based on leaps of logic from scripture about other topics.

That is just one example but there are others that in modern life, the bible just doesn't seem to address.
It's hard to me to adhere to biblical sufficiency when I come to a situation and think "what does the bible say about (x)?" and the answer is nothing, it says nothing, so it doesn't help as a guide there and all I can go with are human opinions and leaps of logic which are never consistent.

Use it responsible and legally. Never at the risk of the gospel and always in ways that may give glory to God. This of course is the same rule with virtually everything from watching tv to eating at McDonald's.

 

[Al Touthentop]

That's one of those leaps of logic and human opinions I'm talking about and if you ask another Christian they'll say "no way" and have a different justifcation for why it's never okay even medically.

But we're not talking about what people say, we're talking about what the bible says. And it is sufficient if you just read it carefully. I didn't make any leaps of logic.

Genesis 9
3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

So he didn't exclude the psychotropic herbs which existed even then. He said they were all food. There's no need to leap to any conclusions other than the obvious that all the animals and herbs are good for food.

So that's explicit authority. There's nothing forbidden as far as green herbs are concerned for the rest of the text.

It's just much easier to feel you have the proper authority (God's authority) on a subject when He is explicit on it.

So...there's explicit authority.

Like getting drunk on alcohol (which some people think drinking alcohol at all is bad and claim that 'wine' in the bible is just grape juice not always fermented), is an absolute no.

But that doesn't have anything to do with the sufficiency of the text. A person's poor historical knowledge about wine is not the fault of the text.

Fornication is an absolute no. Although, the punishment for fornication is generally just to make it right, pay the dowry and marry the girl Exodus 22:16-17.

That's the old law. Paul says that one who fornicates is worthy of condemnation. So, it definitely needs to be dealt with. But I see what you mean.

But see there. just clear as can be no needing to guess or make leaps of logic. Flee fornication, and if you fornicate here's a clear punishment. You can never be wrong if you say to someone "don't have sex with someone if you're not married, and if you do, you have to marry them and can never divorce them" because that's just what the bible says.
It'd be nice to have that kind of authoritative statement on everything.

There are plenty of authoritave statements in the bible that people flat out reject. So even their existence does not solve the problem of a person who's heart is hardened. Don't allow your own heart to be hardened because the bible requires study. That bible is the gift of the Holy Spirit himself. If some of it is hard to understand, that doesn't mean it isn't sufficient.

 

[Glorytothefather2245]

Just like alcohol, people are going to use it, and so it is with marijuana. So why not make it legal and get the tax money from it. Moderation in everything is the rule.

I cant speak for God so this is my personal opinion. Some people totally dont drink and other drinks moderately. But when it comes to marijuana. The bigger question is did they prescribe it to themself? Did they ask the doctor for it or did the doctor come up with the idea? It's kind of a rough one to be honest. But marijuana is a gateway drug. So you must ask yourself if meth and etc was legalized should that not be against Gods will aswell since it would be legal?

 

[Thomas White]

I cant speak for God so this is my personal opinion. Some people totally dont drink and other drinks moderately. But when it comes to marijuana. The bigger question is did they prescribe it to themself? Did they ask the doctor for it or did the doctor come up with the idea? It's kind of a rough one to be honest. But marijuana is a gateway drug. So if meth and etc was legalized should that not be against Gods will aswell?

I'm not sure I understand what the spiritual basis would be for rejecting marijuana if it is legal where you live. I can't think of any scripture that would apply.

 

[Glorytothefather2245]

I'm not sure I understand what the spiritual basis would be for rejecting marijuana if it is legal where you live. I can't think of any scripture that would apply.

"Liber 420" Explores the Hidden History of Cannabis and the Occult | MERRY JANE

 

[Blade]

" should a Christian use Medical Marijuana, or even should a Christian use Marijuana recreationally."

Ever try this? How does your body react the 1st time? We need GOD to tell us something we don't want to hear? Was there more? The thing is..GOD is not going to say a word. God is for Doctors.. but every Doctor is not for GOD. So if a Doctor told me I should start taking pot? Pass.. I know the other effects (bad) that can come from this. That have effect so many. That part just never gets talked about hmm..

So.. try Pot.. cough cough.. Cig.. cough cough.. yeah.. seems my BODY is telling me something. So I go by what my Father has already provided.. thats done. He has never failed. Your free choice.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

A lot of pastors and Christians believe in the doctrine of biblical sufficiency, but often times they get asked questions that the bible just does not directly address and the best they can do is to go on a general principle.
One that comes up a lot is should a Christian use Medical Marijuana, or even should a Christian use Marijuana recreationally. While when the law in the US was that it was strictly illegal, that was an easy question to answer because Romans 13 teaches us to abide by the laws of the land, even the secular ones, because God put that authority in place. But now states and even some countries like Canada are legalizing it even for recreational use. Then it becomes more of a stretch and many cite scripture about sorcery and justify that the word for sorcery is the same as pharmacy, but isn't directly related, or scripture referring to alcohol and making a stretch to make it cover all intoxicants, or just the commands to be sober minded in general.
Now as far as recreational goes, they're probably right along the lines of needing to be sober minded. But when it comes to medical use it becomes murky, because a person might be using opioid pain relievers truly just to alleviate severe pain, not to get intoxicated but intoxication is a side effect. They may have use of marijuana when other pharmaceutical agents have failed for various conditions, chronic pain and inflammation, seizure disorders, as an adjunct to chemotherapy in cancer, etc.
so as a Christian you're in a bind. Do you use the medication that helps with medical symptoms that your doctor has prescribed for you, or do you obey the command to be sober minded even if you're in so much pain that it distracts you from all other things (which is in a way, also not being sober minded, you can't focus on God when your focus is pretty much railroaded on pleasure that does not come from God, OR on pain). The bible doesn't really address it, and faith leaders and pastors you may ask, can only give their opinions based on leaps of logic from scripture about other topics.

That is just one example but there are others that in modern life, the bible just doesn't seem to address.
It's hard to me to adhere to biblical sufficiency when I come to a situation and think "what does the bible say about (x)?" and the answer is nothing, it says nothing, so it doesn't help as a guide there and all I can go with are human opinions and leaps of logic which are never consistent.

Solid points here, made me think quite a bit About my own beliefs.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to apply scriptures prohibiting drunkenness to being high on drugs when it comes to recreational use.

With what we choose to do for entertainment/recreation, I think our whole culture has it wrong. Drugs, TV, movies...these things don’t really glorify God, are neutral at best and often very bad. They can’t really be justified in most circumstances but Christians just accept them anyway.

with medical application, I don’t see any reason to look at marijuana any differently than other pain drugs like opioids, except they marijuana is safer and less addicting so why not use it?

I know you can have a couple beers and not get drunk. Can you smoke a little weed and not get high? I’ve never smoked but I was under the impression when you smoke you get high. I could be wrong tho

 

[Jamdoc]

" should a Christian use Medical Marijuana, or even should a Christian use Marijuana recreationally."

Ever try this? How does your body react the 1st time? We need GOD to tell us something we don't want to hear? Was there more? The thing is..GOD is not going to say a word. God is for Doctors.. but every Doctor is not for GOD. So if a Doctor told me I should start taking pot? Pass.. I know the other effects (bad) that can come from this. That have effect so many. That part just never gets talked about hmm..

So.. try Pot.. cough cough.. Cig.. cough cough.. yeah.. seems my BODY is telling me something. So I go by what my Father has already provided.. thats done. He has never failed. Your free choice.

It reacts fine since I don't smoke first off, and when I used it and am able to walk without assistance and with joints (like knees and elbows) not being purple, hot, the skin peeling off and severely painful, and rashes that wouldn't go away for months start to clear up and heal, and I don't break out in more.. that I'd say is a positive body reaction to it. Not negative.

 

[Thomas White]

Solid points here, made me think quite a bit About my own beliefs.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to apply scriptures prohibiting drunkenness to being high on drugs when it comes to recreational use.

With what we choose to do for entertainment/recreation, I think our whole culture has it wrong. Drugs, TV, movies...these things don’t really glorify God, are neutral at best and often very bad. They can’t really be justified in most circumstances but Christians just accept them anyway.

with medical application, I don’t see any reason to look at marijuana any differently than other pain drugs like opioids, except they marijuana is safer and less addicting so why not use it?

I know you can have a couple beers and not get drunk. Can you smoke a little weed and not get high? I’ve never smoked but I was under the impression when you smoke you get high. I could be wrong tho

Can you give me a scriptural example? I just don't see how being a drunkard and being high are the same thing.

 

[Jamdoc]

Solid points here, made me think quite a bit About my own beliefs.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to apply scriptures prohibiting drunkenness to being high on drugs when it comes to recreational use.

With what we choose to do for entertainment/recreation, I think our whole culture has it wrong. Drugs, TV, movies...these things don’t really glorify God, are neutral at best and often very bad. They can’t really be justified in most circumstances but Christians just accept them anyway.

with medical application, I don’t see any reason to look at marijuana any differently than other pain drugs like opioids, except they marijuana is safer and less addicting so why not use it?

I know you can have a couple beers and not get drunk. Can you smoke a little weed and not get high? I’ve never smoked but I was under the impression when you smoke you get high. I could be wrong tho

Depends on the THC content of the strain, as I said in another post I use a relatively weaker strain THC wise (but without the moderate dose of THC it's just far less effective at treating inflammation in my experience, so it's a goldilocks zone). It doesn't get me wasted, but it will make me .. content for an hour or so, but the pain relief lasts longer, and usually really is noticed the next day after waking up, like you have some an hour or two before bed, are usually comfortable enough that the pain isn't bothering you so intensely and isn't so hot anymore, so you can sleep, then wake up, and the burning is gone for the next day. Maybe clear for about 3 days but after that the flare will start to come back if you try to stretch as long as you can between use.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

A lot of pastors and Christians believe in the doctrine of biblical sufficiency, but often times they get asked questions that the bible just does not directly address and the best they can do is to go on a general principle.
One that comes up a lot is should a Christian use Medical Marijuana, or even should a Christian use Marijuana recreationally. While when the law in the US was that it was strictly illegal, that was an easy question to answer because Romans 13 teaches us to abide by the laws of the land, even the secular ones, because God put that authority in place. But now states and even some countries like Canada are legalizing it even for recreational use. Then it becomes more of a stretch and many cite scripture about sorcery and justify that the word for sorcery is the same as pharmacy, but isn't directly related, or scripture referring to alcohol and making a stretch to make it cover all intoxicants, or just the commands to be sober minded in general.
Now as far as recreational goes, they're probably right along the lines of needing to be sober minded. But when it comes to medical use it becomes murky, because a person might be using opioid pain relievers truly just to alleviate severe pain, not to get intoxicated but intoxication is a side effect. They may have use of marijuana when other pharmaceutical agents have failed for various conditions, chronic pain and inflammation, seizure disorders, as an adjunct to chemotherapy in cancer, etc.
so as a Christian you're in a bind. Do you use the medication that helps with medical symptoms that your doctor has prescribed for you, or do you obey the command to be sober minded even if you're in so much pain that it distracts you from all other things (which is in a way, also not being sober minded, you can't focus on God when your focus is pretty much railroaded on pleasure that does not come from God, OR on pain). The bible doesn't really address it, and faith leaders and pastors you may ask, can only give their opinions based on leaps of logic from scripture about other topics.

That is just one example but there are others that in modern life, the bible just doesn't seem to address.
It's hard to me to adhere to biblical sufficiency when I come to a situation and think "what does the bible say about (x)?" and the answer is nothing, it says nothing, so it doesn't help as a guide there and all I can go with are human opinions and leaps of logic which are never consistent.

Can you give me a scriptural example? I just don't see how being a drunkard and being high are the same thing.

1 THESSALONIANS 5:6-8
“So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.”
1 PETER 1:13
“Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming.”
1 PETER 5:8
“Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”

Hello, these verses refer to sobriety as the appropriate status. The concept of being sober in these verses reads (IMO) as not being altered and being focused. I think drug and alcohol abuse are the opposite of sober. But just my opinion that it isn’t a stretch to apply verses on sobriety and right living to drug use as well as alcohol abuse

 

[JIMINZ]

Can you give me a scriptural example? I just don't see how being a drunkard and being high are the same thing.

Here is a Hypothetical in order to answer your question.

Would you get into a car knowing the driver had just smoked a Joint, or had 2 shots of Vodka and then get on a Highway with legal speeds up to 75 mph?

Don't both have diminished response times?

Just wondering.

 

[Jamdoc]

Can you give me a scriptural example? I just don't see how being a drunkard and being high are the same thing.

It's all about loss of control.
Proverbs 23:31-33
1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 5:8
It's less about the particular intoxicant but more about the state of inebriation Being high on anything can make you lose good jugement. Even though I use low thc cannabis as medicine, I wouldn't get behind the wheel of an automobile after using it. I also wouldn't get behind the wheel while using vicodin or something like that. Being intoxicated on anything makes you dangerous to other people because you lose judgement of things like time and distance and other people's emotional states, and your own emotional state.
I certainly don't advocate use of anything for the purpose of getting high.
I actually wonder why God created us to even be capable of those states of consciousness because they're so dangerous. I can only surmise that these chemicals were created to be used in low dosages and we screwed it up by deciding we liked the effects and amplified it by selecting for more potency.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What about sleeping around, 'people are going to do it anyhow'?
Shame on you!

I don't think we can tax adultery and fornication.