Biblical reasons for the submission of women

[HatGuy]

That's not what it says. It says husbands are to love as Christ loved. Laying down life is only one part if that. The rest is being a SERVANT i.e. submission.

ItsI very clear from all of these type of anti-women posts that many of the men here are only interested in being a master and ruling over people or they wouldn't feel so threatened by the idea of not having other people to dominate and control while pretending that's what scripture says Christ is all about.

I notice that every time these scriptures about service and love are brought up, they're ignored. I'm beginning to wonder if we're all being trolled.

 

[Daniel C]

It's actually about how salvation breaks down prejudice and social barriers. God wants all to come in, not some privileged group.

A true christian doesn't see 'prejudice' or 'social barriers' it's just Gods way or not.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

That's not what it says. It says husbands are to love as Christ loved. Laying down life is only one part if that. The rest is being a SERVANT i.e. submission.

ItsI very clear from all of these type of anti-women posts that many of the men here are only interested in being a master and ruling over people or they wouldn't feel so threatened by the idea of not having other people to dominate and control while pretending that's what scripture says Christ is all about.

Ok. Here's what it says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

How did Jesus love the Church? He served, he died, he raised, but he NEVER submitted to the Church THANK GOD! Otherwise, He would never have gone to the cross. And that would have been out of God's divine Authority.

Did Jesus submit to the Church when Peter said "Never, Lord!" ......This (crucifixtion) shall never happen to you!" and Jesus replied "Get behind me, Satan!". (Matthew 16:24).

No. Jesus exercised His Authority OVER the Church. And He used His Authority OVER the Church to serve, cleanse, cast the devils out, take it's sin, die, and raise from the dead for it. He did not submit like Adam submitted to Eve's leadership who sinned against God. He is the 2nd Adam. Perfect in every way where Adam failed.

"For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands. like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord (Master). You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."
(1 Peter 3:5-6)

Sarah was Godly to call Abraham "lord" and have a submissive spirit to her God-given Leader.

Hopefully, this will help explain what Biblical submission and leadership are.

 

[Pádraigín Ní Saorlaith]

We hear frequently these days that the reason for the submission of women was cultural, in the church of Corinth only, about a specific woman only etc.

I would like to present 3 biblical reasons for the submission. Notice, that none of them is temporal, cultural or local:

1) The creation order:
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Tm 2:11

2) Because Eve was deceived, not Adam:
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Tm 2:14

3) Woman was created for man, not man for woman, its her purpose:
"Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man."
1Cor 11:9

As long as what these verses state is true, the submission of women is true, too, and women are not allowed to be in a position of authority in a Christian environment.

The first two verses are part of the same passage, which encompasses how women ought to behave modestly and humbly. Immediately following, Paul discusses how bishops, deacons, and deaconesses ought to behave. Prior to it, in 1 Timothy 2:8, Paul gives instructions to how men are to behave. The passage (and much of 1 Timothy) discusses how Church leadership ought to function.

1 Corinthians 11:9 comes in the midst of a passage about women covering their heads while praying, so we ought to keep that in mind while discussing this passage. Either way, Paul follows up the statement with, "In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God" (1 Corinthians 9:11-12).

There are absolutely biblical reasons for submission, but when talking about biblical submission, we ought to look at it through a biblical lens, because what Paul describes biblical submission to look like in his letters looks drastically different than what the contemporary culture depicted it as. (I say this because yes, the Greco-Roman cultures to which Paul wrote had a very strict idea about what female submission and male headship ought to look like, and it was pretty awful, and I'm glad Scripture clarifies what submission and headship ought to look like.)

Just as Paul tells women in Ephesians 5:24 to submit to their husbands, he tells men to love their wives "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Ephesians 5:25). The remainder of the passage explains in detail what this love ought to look like. It is selfless, sacrificial. Ephesians 5:33 also clarifies submission as respect for the husband.

Paul goes into more detailed what this Christlike demeanor should look like for all Christians in Philippians 2:5-8, saying, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!" Ergo, regardless of whether one is male or female, biblical submission and Christlike love both involve being humble and serving others.

Scripture does not merely tell men to love their wives, or merely tell women to submit to their husbands. It gives detailed instruction as to what this love and submission ought to look like, and in a world where love is often equated with lust and where submission is equated with being a doormat, we need to be clear about what those words mean.

As for women having authority in the Church, I should think there is arguably some precedent for women as teachers (although I have mixed feelings as women as ordained ministers).

• Mary Magdalene and the other women at the tomb acted as apostles to the apostles.
• Deborah was appointed by God to be judge over Israel.
• Someone else referenced Priscilla and Aquila. In the Book of Acts, it is mentioned that Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos the entirety of Christ's teaching and the Gospels. Rather than just Aquila teaching him, or even just Priscilla, teaching Apollos and discipling him was a team effort.

 

[PloverWing]

I would like to present 3 biblical reasons for the submission. Notice, that none of them is temporal, cultural or local:

1) The creation order:
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Tm 2:11

2) Because Eve was deceived, not Adam:
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
1Tm 2:14

One problem with I Timothy 2 is that the arguments do not hold up logically. The first argument is:

Adam was formed before Eve.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

But that does not follow. Authority does not actually follow from the order of creation. We do not, for example, say:

Birds were created before humans.
Therefore, birds have authority over humans, and humans should be silent.​

The second argument is:

Eve was deceived, and Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

This is, again, a non sequitur. Perhaps there is a missing step in the argument:

Eve was deceived, and Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, all women are more easily deceived than all men.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

But this version is also flawed. One cannot infer the behavior of all women from Eve's behavior, nor the behavior of all men from Adam's behavior.

If you're making an argument strictly from tradition, I can respect that: The author of I Timothy recommended that all church leaders in Timothy's church should be married men; we want to follow the precedent set by Timothy's church; therefore, we ordain only married men. But the actual argument made by the author of I Timothy generalizing from the two individuals Adam and Eve to all men and all women is not a sound argument.

 

[Daniel C]

One problem with I Timothy 2 is that the arguments do not hold up logically. The first argument is:

Adam was formed before Eve.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

But that does not follow. Authority does not actually follow from the order of creation. We do not, for example, say:

Birds were created before humans.
Therefore, birds have authority over humans, and humans should be silent.​

The second argument is:

Eve was deceived, and Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

This is, again, a non sequitur. Perhaps there is a missing step in the argument:

Eve was deceived, and Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, all women are more easily deceived than all men.
Therefore, men have authority over women, and women should be silent.​

But this version is also flawed. One cannot infer the behavior of all women from Eve's behavior, nor the behavior of all men from Adam's behavior.

If you're making an argument strictly from tradition, I can respect that: The author of I Timothy recommended that all church leaders in Timothy's church should be married men; we want to follow the precedent set by Timothy's church; therefore, we ordain only married men. But the actual argument made by the author of I Timothy generalizing from the two individuals Adam and Eve to all men and all women is not a sound argument.

Adam and eve were in the garden of Eden and so the rules were different in the garden before the fall.

When Adam and Eve were removed from the garden the rules for humanity changed,including original sin and ancestral punishments.

Comparing Genesis and Pauls writings to try and put Gods word in opposition with itself won't work. It's harmonized.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes. Now what we have to answer is this.... did any of those women ever "USURP AUTHORITY" over men of God who were also filled by the Holy Spirit. For example, did any of the Prophetesses ever correct, rebuke, or instruct another male Prophet of God?

I don't know; we're not told.

Correcting someone is not usurping authority over them; it's just correcting them. Shouldn't women be able to do this? If a woman was sitting listening to a male preacher and he got a fact/some facts wrong, should she sit there and let him continue to teach false information to the rest of the group?
Yes, you'll probably say she should speak to him afterwards so as not to be disruptive, but the rest of the group then go away in ignorance. Or they go away, check the facts, tell the preacher he is wrong and he then feels stupid/humiliated because no one cared enough to correct him.
If a man believes something is good, and a woman knows it is poison; should she correct him or just let him be poisoned/suffer death?

USURP means to snatch violently by force.
How can anyone snatch authority from another when all authority is given by God? Before the ascension Jesus said, "ALL authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. THEREFORE, go .....", Matthew 28:18-19. HE has all authority and has commissioned us to go, make disciples, teach and baptise.

 

[com7fy8]

I believe if husbands truly understood that biblical submission puts far responsibility on them than their wives, they would be much more hesitant to pull that card out.

For one thing, a leader needs to be our example of how to be submissive >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

So, if he is the leader in the relationship, he is to take the lead in doing these things which God requires of all of us.

 

[devin553344]

After scanning the thread I drew the conclusion that the bible is somewhat in conflict of the issue of men over women. So I'm still confused, but maybe that's OK?

 

[bekkilyn]

I notice that every time these scriptures about service and love are brought up, they're ignored. I'm beginning to wonder if we're all being trolled.

It does always seem to be the same people over and over insisting that females be submitted to them.

 

[bekkilyn]

A true christian doesn't see 'prejudice' or 'social barriers' it's just Gods way or not.

What a very priveledged thing to say.

 

[com7fy8]

women are not allowed to be in a position of authority in a Christian environment

What about the environment of marriage? >

"the man does not have authority over his own body, but the woman does" (in 1 Corinthians 7:4)

Holy matrimony is a Christian environment. If she has authority over his body, does this not mean she has authority over her husband?

 

[topher694]

What a very priveledged thing to say.

Always be careful with any statement that includes, "a true Christian..."

 

[bekkilyn]

Ok. Here's what it says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

How did Jesus love the Church? He served, he died, he raised, but he NEVER submitted to the Church THANK GOD! Otherwise, He would never have gone to the cross. And that would have been out of God's divine Authority.

Did Jesus submit to the Church when Peter said "Never, Lord!" ......This (crucifixtion) shall never happen to you!" and Jesus replied "Get behind me, Satan!". (Matthew 16:24).

No. Jesus exercised His Authority OVER the Church. And He used His Authority OVER the Church to serve, cleanse, cast the devils out, take it's sin, die, and raise from the dead for it. He did not submit like Adam submitted to Eve's leadership who sinned against God. He is the 2nd Adam. Perfect in every way where Adam failed.

"For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands. like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord (Master). You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear."
(1 Peter 3:5-6)

Sarah was Godly to call Abraham "lord" and have a submissive spirit to her God-given Leader.

Hopefully, this will help explain what Biblical submission and leadership are.

Matthew 20:28

God submits over and over throughout scripture for the sake of those he loves.

You have a very confused view of what agape love is.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

I don't know; we're not told.

Correcting someone is not usurping authority over them; it's just correcting them. Shouldn't women be able to do this? If a woman was sitting listening to a male preacher and he got a fact/some facts wrong, should she sit there and let him continue to teach false information to the rest of the group?
Yes, you'll probably say she should speak to him afterwards so as not to be disruptive, but the rest of the group then go away in ignorance. Or they go away, check the facts, tell the preacher he is wrong and he then feels stupid/humiliated because no one cared enough to correct him.
If a man believes something is good, and a woman knows it is poison; should she correct him or just let him be poisoned/suffer death?

USURP means to snatch violently by force.
How can anyone snatch authority from another when all authority is given by God? Before the ascension Jesus said, "ALL authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. THEREFORE, go .....", Matthew 28:18-19. HE has all authority and has commissioned us to go, make disciples, teach and baptise.

Real Preaching is "coughing up" God's Word that He puts in your belly. Saying what God tells you to say is never wrong. God's never wrong. The meaning of USURP is "Strongs 831. authenteó" to govern, exercise authority. Correcting mistakes is not taking dominion. It's not Usurping authority. It's edifying and adding to knowledge. Putting a false prophet out of a Church IS usurping authority. Casting out an evil spirit is doing the same.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Matthew 20:28

God submits over and over throughout scripture for the sake of those he loves.

You have a very confused view of what agape love is.

Show me God or Jesus Christ submitting to mankind in Scripture. I want chapter and verse or nothing from you.

 

[com7fy8]

I drew the conclusion that the bible is somewhat in conflict of the issue of men over women.

Part of certain people's confusion, in my opinion, Devin, is that people confuse higher position with superiority.

But our Heavenly Father is the Head of Jesus, right? Yet, this difference of position does not mean difference in ability to love and the character of Their love.

A foot can have the same blood as the head. Plus, the head greatly values the foot, and takes good care of the foot. And though the head might be higher than the heart, the heart can be pumping the love blood. And what good is the intelligence without the love blood?

Also, you might feed on 1 Thessalonians 2:7&11, where the three great men who send this epistle say they cared for the Thessalonians >

"as a nursing mother cherishes her own children."

Surely, these men were not about distancing themselves from Christian women! They appreciated how a Christian mother cherishes her children, and this was their example, I can see > possibly so these men were helped by women to learn how to love and care for children of God.

So, this would mean our ladies can indeed teach us > help us to learn how to love.

So, if Paul says for a lady not to teach a man, this can mean not to hen-pick at him . . . not to teach over him, but as his sharing companion, his love-blood pumper, maybe. But her good example can indeed help him to learn how to love. And we have how Christian wives can even help a disobedient man, by their example >

1 Peter 3:1-4.

And being a real example is superior to being in a higher position but not feeding us how to relate in God's love.

 

[bekkilyn]

Show me God or Jesus Christ submitting to mankind in Scripture. I want chapter and verse or nothing from you.

John 13:1-17

 

[bekkilyn]

Part of certain people's confusion, in my opinion, Devin, is that people confuse higher position with superiority.

But our Heavenly Father is the Head of Jesus, right? Yet, this difference of position does not mean difference in ability to love and the character of Their love.

A foot can have the same blood as the head. Plus, the head greatly values the foot, and takes good care of the foot. And though the head might be higher than the heart, the heart can be pumping the love blood. And what good is the intelligence without the love blood?

Also, you might feed on 1 Thessalonians 2:7&11, where the three great men who send this epistle say they cared for the Thessalonians >

"as a nursing mother cherishes her own children."

Surely, these men were not about distancing themselves from Christian women! They appreciated how a Christian mother cherishes her children, and this was their example, I can see > possibly so these men were helped by women to learn how to love and care for children of God.

So, this would mean our ladies can indeed teach us > help us to learn how to love.

So, if Paul says for a lady not to teach a man, this can mean not to hen-pick at him . . . not to teach over him, but as his sharing companion, his love-blood pumper, maybe. But her good example can indeed help him to learn how to love. And we have how Christian wives can even help a disobedient man, by their example >

1 Peter 3:1-4.

And being a real example is superior to being in a higher position but not feeding us how to relate in God's love.

Also, they believed at the time that a person's mind was in the heart, not in the head, so decision-making and all those sorts of things weren't even a part of the head.

Also, to make Christ being the head of the church into "authority over" is distorting the message. Basically, it is saying that without Christ, the church wouldn't exist (because he is the reason for the season, so to speak) just like without Adam's rib, Eve wouldn't have existed. Has nothing to do with power or authority at all. It was just that something had to come first before the thing that came after. If it had to do with power and authority, then we would have made squirrels and dolphins our kings and queens.

 

[bekkilyn]

Real Preaching is "coughing up" God's Word that He puts in your belly. Saying what God tells you to say is never wrong. God's never wrong. The meaning of USURP is "Strongs 831. authenteó" to govern, exercise authority. Correcting mistakes is not taking dominion. It's not Usurping authority. It's edifying and adding to knowledge. Putting a false prophet out of a Church IS usurping authority. Casting out an evil spirit is doing the same.

The problem here is that you seem to be confusing yourself with God.