Biblical proof of Mary's virginity

[BNR32FAN]

I think I should eddit my original message it misses a lot of information that I developed in the thread. I'll do that later tonight.

Did you ever edit your OP? It looks the same as before.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry in which verse they get maried?

If you didn’t already know this then you really need to do a lot more study on the scriptures before teaching the gospel my friend.

“When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:24‬

 

[Erik Nelson]

Matthew 13:55 says, "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary? Aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" Specifically calls out his brothers.

was Jesus the carpenter's son?

in the gospel of John, some of the Jews refused to believe in Jesus because they thought he had been born in Galilee

not sure it makes much sense to quote the confused as authoritative

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I think it is indicative of evangelical Protestant culture that such an understanding isn't even on your radar.
Modern Western culture is saturated with sex, and it is difficult for Christians in the West to appreciate anything outside of that paradigm.

I think that's an unfair counter to a legitimate observation. It's an ad hominem: instead of addressing the point on its own merit, you attacked the person stating the case. It's the argument that follows the pattern, "You only believe that because you're a...." It should be noted, also, that people only resort to that defense when they're tired of debating, or when they can't win through evidence and sound reasoning. It was an easier argument to make than to try to show him why he was wrong.

But he wasn't wrong. You're standing on something that does not exist in the text at all.

 

[BroRoyVa79]

The argument is simply to demonstrate that "until" does not require the state described before to change after the clause. It is just like saying "the children quietly did their work until the teacher returned to the classroom". Did they stop working quietly after the teacher returned? It doesn't say one way or the other.
A lot of people are acting like Matthew 1:25 is a slam dunk when it isn't.

I know you have mostly been dialoguing with redlegehunter about this. Again, if you already know this then forgive me and I am no expert and this might be overkill, but:

Your argument may have been a strong one if Matthew 1:25 was in a void by itself, if the Greek word ἕως (heos) did not mean until, as far as, up to, up until, and I'd add, while. Plus the context of the passage and information surrounding it did not support understanding the text the way most do as in Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations until she gave birth to Christ. See blueletter's breakdown and biblehub's breakdown.

In the biblehub lexicon read down to Section II.b which gives reasons in Greek grammar for understanding heos in this sentence as having a meaning which signifies a a change in time with focus on the verb ἐγίνωσκεν (knew). As the lexicon says, the grammar in the sentence gives it the force of a conjunction and the meaning, "the time when" or ἕως οὗ (until that) or "And not knew her until that she had brought forth a son..." as translated here: Matthew 1:25.

There are three verbs in the sentence, ἐγίνωσκεν (knew), ἔτεκεν (brought forth, birthed, begat), and ἐκάλεσεν (call, summon, invite, name) and two people, αὐτὴν (a pronoun in the form of her), in this case, Mary and ἐγίνωσκεν and ἐκάλεσεν which are in a form indicating that the subject of the statement, in this case Joseph as seen from Matt 1:18-24, is carrying out actions since the point of this small blurb in the genealogy is about how Joseph responds to the knews of Mary's pregnancy and is encouraged by the Angel of the Lord not to act negatively on it.

There are other things to point out such as tense, mood, etc. To put it shortly, after refreshing my memory and reading a couple things, the lexicon points out the word translated until is followed by the indicative in this passage. This means the action is real, not hypothetical, a possibility or a command. In other words, he, Joseph, actually did not do something until a specific time. Or to say it differently, Joseph did not commit his action, "he did not know her" until a certain point that or after Mary committed her action "gave birth" which is a certain time.

This is supported by evidence elsewhere in the Bible where we read about siblings of Jesus and cultural understandings regarding consumating marriage through intimacy as indicated in Matt 1:18-19. They were not bethrothed forever or until her or his death since many speculate the reason Joseph disappears from the narrative is most likely because he passed away before the events of the Gospels.

Additionally, I would say your example "the children quietly worked in the classroom until the teacher returned to the classroom" indicates a change in some sense. Does it mean they started talking? No, you don't give that context by saying something like "The children were talking loudly before the teacher left the classroom. She disciplined them and the quieted down. The children quietly worked in the classroom until the teacher returned." This would indicate the possibility the children started talking again when the teacher returned or did something else. A better comparitive example would be something like:

John was driving down the street at 75 mph and saw a speed limit sign declaring the legal speed on the road was 55 mph. His conscience told him he should slow down, but he didn't see any police or other cars on the road. He changed his mind when saw some deer out the corner of his eye. He saw a stop light in the distance, however John did not press the breaks nor did he slow down until the stop light changed to yellow.​

The above gives enough context to infer that until in the last sentence means John did not take an action until after a certain time and event occured. Equally, as shown above there is too much context in Matthew 1, Luke, John etc. and evidence afterward to take an ambigious meaning of Matthew 1:25 in the sense that until does not mean Joseph did not know Mary after the birth of Jesus.

 

[Saucy]

was Jesus the carpenter's son?

in the gospel of John, some of the Jews refused to believe in Jesus because they thought he had been born in Galilee

not sure it makes much sense to quote the confused as authoritative

That wasn't the point I was making using that verse. The fact that they named Jesus' brothers points to the fact that they were his brothers and not cousins. This is direct evidence of the bible specifically saying Jesus had brothers, of which were born from Joseph and Mary's marriage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That wasn't the point I was making using that verse. The fact that they named Jesus' brothers points to the fact that they were his brothers and not cousins. This is direct evidence of the bible specifically saying Jesus had brothers, of which were born from Joseph and Mary's marriage.

James is mentioned as Jesus’ brother several times in the scriptures. In fact he is the only apostle specifically mentioned as being Jesus’ brother several times. That is often how the authors would distinguish James Zebedee from James son of Joseph, Jesus’ biological brother.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Greek word translated as brother used here (adelphos) literally means kinsmen. It has a wide range of meanings, so we can safely assume Mary never had children other then Jesus.

ἀδελφός adelphós, ad-el-fos'; from G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphýs (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like G1):—brother.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 346x
The KJV translates Strong's G80 in the following manner: brethren (226x), brother (113x), brother's (6x), brother's way (1x).

 

[Erik Nelson]

The early Church also has something to say regarding Mary’s eternal virginity:


The Protoevangelium of James

"And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

"And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’" (ibid., 8–9).

"And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’" (ibid., 15).

"And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" (ibid.).



Origen

"The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity" (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).



Hilary of Poitiers

"If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).



Athanasius

"Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).



Epiphanius of Salamis

"We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

"And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).



Jerome

"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

"We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (ibid., 21).



Didymus the Blind

"It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).



Ambrose of Milan

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son" (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).



Pope Siricius I

"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).



Augustine

"In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

"It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?" (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

"Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).



Leporius

"We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary" (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).



Cyril of Alexandria

"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing" (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).



Pope Leo I

"His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained" (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).

are you saying that Joseph married another wife with whom he had all of the other children?

did Joseph and Mary adopt?

where did all of the other children come from?

 

[Erik Nelson]

If a woman takes a vow, and this could include celibacy, then her husband would have to give the ok for her vow to stand, since her vow would have a huge impact on him as well.
Mary's response to the Archangel Gabriel when he told her that she would conceive, is consistent with her having taken such a vow.

why did Jesus on the cross bequeath Mary to the care of John the beloved disciple if she had several other sons and daughters with sons in law to care for her?

 

[Erik Nelson]

That wasn't the point I was making using that verse. The fact that they named Jesus' brothers points to the fact that they were his brothers and not cousins. This is direct evidence of the bible specifically saying Jesus had brothers, of which were born from Joseph and Mary's marriage.

no

the Jews thought that they were his brothers

they also thought Joseph was his father, and that he had been born in Galilee not Bethlehem

they were very confused

you appear to be absorbing their confusion

if Mary had so many children, why did Jesus on the cross (honor his earthly parent by) bequeathing her to the care of John the beloved disciple??

John cared for Mary for the rest of her days, not James or anyone else

was James, bishop of Jerusalem, an arch sinner for refusing to care for and honor his own mother???

James, bishop of Jerusalem, didn't care for his own mom... But let John handle everything?

 

[Barney2.0]

are you saying that Joseph married another wife with whom he had all of the other children?

did Joseph and Mary adopt?

where did all of the other children come from?

Brother could be a refference to cousins or other relatives, or it could be Joseph’s children from a previous marriage, or perhaps they were simply siblings to Jesus in faith.

 

[Barney2.0]

ἀδελφός adelphós, ad-el-fos'; from G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphýs (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like G1):—brother.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 346x
The KJV translates Strong's G80 in the following manner: brethren (226x), brother (113x), brother's (6x), brother's way (1x).

The word brother can have many meanings in Semitic culture.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Brother could be a refference to cousins or other relatives, or it could be Joseph’s children from a previous marriage, or perhaps they were simply siblings to Jesus in faith.

thought they didn't believe until after the crucifixion, hence Jesus said a prophet is not without honor except in his own family

if from a previous marriage, then Jesus was the youngest?

could you support that claim?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Brother could be a refference to cousins or other relatives, or it could be Joseph’s children from a previous marriage, or perhaps they were simply siblings to Jesus in faith.

Ok but the problem is where is the evidence that Mary remained a virgin? This evidence points to the idea that she did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus. I don’t think we should dismiss it as evidence in an attempt to support her perpetual virginity if there is no evidence suppprting her perpetual virginity. If there was evidence supporting that she kept her virginity until death then I would agree with you.

 

[Barney2.0]

Ok but the problem is where is the evidence that Mary remained a virgin? This evidence points to the idea that she did not remain a virgin after giving birth to Jesus. I don’t think we should dismiss it as evidence in an attempt to support her perpetual virginity if there is no evidence suppprting her perpetual virginity. If there was evidence supporting that she kept her virginity until death then I would agree with you.

I believe we should ask ourselves if there’s evidence she didn’t keep her virginity, before we ask ourselves if there’s proof of her perpetual virginity.

 

[Barney2.0]

thought they didn't believe until after the crucifixion, hence Jesus said a prophet is not without honor except in his own family

if from a previous marriage, then Jesus was the youngest?

could you support that claim?

Well nothing would deny Jesus as the youngest, you might probably make refference to Jesus as the first born son of Mary and Joseph, but that’s just refference to their marriage not including kids from his previous marriage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let’s keep in mind this isn’t the only assumption made by the Roman Church. Her assumption to heaven is also just that, an assumption, based on no evidence whatsoever. Purgatory, another assumption, anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.” forgiveness in the afterlife, assumption, Mary never sinned, contradiction based on assumption, the Magnificat and the fact that none are righteous not one contradict that teaching. Mary can have people removed from purgatory by asking Jesus to intercede because she asked Him to make wine at the wedding in Cana and He did, Huge assumption. Jesus’ sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins huge contradiction based on assumption. Saints can hear our prayers, another assumption. Starting to see a pattern here?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe we should ask ourselves if there’s evidence she didn’t keep her virginity, before we ask ourselves if there’s proof of her perpetual virginity.

He knew her not UNTIL Jesus was born. That’s evidence. She was married to Joseph and it is Jewish custom to consummate the marriage, evidence. James is specifically said to be Jesus’ brother several times throughout the New Testament unlike any other apostle, evidence. Where is one single shred of evidence supporting Mary’s perpetual virginity in scripture? Just one?

 

[Barney2.0]

He knew her not UNTIL Jesus was born. That’s evidence. She was married to Joseph and it is Jewish custom to consummate the marriage, evidence. James is specifically said to be Jesus’ brother several times throughout the New Testament unlike any other apostle, evidence. Where is one single shred of evidence supporting Mary’s perpetual virginity in scripture? Just one?

It’s the norm to consummate the marriage, but it’s not done to make the marriage valid, according to Judaism the marriage is valid before the bride steps into the groom’s room:

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/465162/jewish/The-Jewish-Marriage-Ceremony.htm

Lot is called the brother of Abraham atleast once in the Old Testament, Jesus said all who believe in his word and carry out his will are his brothers, so he was calling his other Apostles brothers. Scripture’s statement that Joseph "knew [Mary] not until she brought forth her firstborn" would not necessarily mean they did "know" each other after she brought forth Jesus. Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, "Until we meet again, God bless you." Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? By no means. A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. It is not intended to say anything about the future beyond that point. Here are some biblical examples:

• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, "he will reign over the house of Jacob foreverand of his kingdom there shall be no end.")

In recent years, some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for "until" whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph "not having come together" would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: "But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar."

Does this text mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was "sent" to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity

So the question remains, is there anything to deny the perpetual virginity of Mary?