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Biblical Numerology Of The Appearings

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jun 13, 2002.

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  1. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    There is no DOCTRINAL BASIS for the belief that the RAPTURE of the body of Christ is the SECOND COMING.

    You say, Did I hear you right? I don’t know, did you? Maybe. Let me state it again. There are NO VERSES which teach that Jesus Christ appears ONLY two times to this earth. Did you catch what I said then?

    It has become the delusion of some that Christ can ONLY BE SEEN twice. His “presence” (boy howdy, how they love to go to the Greek) WAS here once, but NOW we are looking for it again. He appeared once, but can ONLY appear once more, they STATE.

    BUT WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?

    They’re setting up the false premise for the post trib rapture. Pre-trib rapturists are spoken of as liars and dishonest, due to the fact they believe he will APPEAR before the time of great tribulation. The posties state, “You believe in more than 2 comings!” We just believe in the SECOND COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ. It sounds very spiritual (doesn’t it), but ONLY to a naïve simpleton who hasn’t read, searched, meditated, studied, or rightly divided the Holy Scriptures.

    For a long time, Christians have spoken of the Second Coming of the Lord. They differed on when he came, and how he came, but not IF he would come. It has NOW been “put forth” as DOCTRINE that Jesus Christ can ONLY come ONE MORE TIME, using the phrase, “the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ”, as a theological term.

    Brethren, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is “OUR TERM” based upon Christ and the apostles teachings, that he DOES come again. He has come once, and we teach of his return, which “we call” the second coming. It is our theological and eschatological term for the event.

    Ah yes, how devious are those theological devils of Satan! (1 Tim.4) Those teachers of Satanic doctrine. He can use the Christians own terms against themselves, when they don’t go EXACTLY and PRECISELY according to the statements of the Book.

    The truth of the matter is that there is NO eschatological, biblical, or scriptural doctrinal term, STATED as the SECOND COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, found ANYWHERE in the Holy Scriptures. The Bible NEVER teaches he appears ONLY TWICE.

    That’s NONSENSE.

    He has appeared MANY TIMES down through history. Old Testament appearings are so numerous, that I won’t try to list them all. Let’s look at Genesis. There are several there. Gen.12:1 (Acts 7:1), 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 24, 35:1,7,9, and 48:3 (which speaks of one mentioned previously). Whew! What a list. Way more than TWO. In fact, his “PRESENSE”, the presence of the Lord, was around from the time of Adam.

    You say, that’s not what we’re talking about. Ok.

    When are we going to start running the TIME FROM? The NT? You say, We have to for he didn’t appear in the OT. I just SHOWED you he did. I wish you knew what kind of a debate that started amongst people. They get into the Godhead then, and state Jesus was IN the OT, and some say, he WASN’T. Man, what a mess. See, what I mean butterbean.

    Now I believe in the eternal and everlasting Sonship of the Lord, and that he is a member of the Triune Godhead, but the MAN, Jesus, was NOT back in the OT. The man had earthly flesh, which he received at his incarnation, and was born of Mary IN TIME. He was God, in the flesh, (1 Tim.3), but he was a man, also. Son of God, Son of Man. (Isaiah 7,9) Unto us a child is born, the son of man, unto us a son is given, the son of God. John 3,1, 1 John 1.

    Never forget that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the IMAGE of the invisible God. (Col.1, Heb.1, 2 Cor.4) He is the FATHER’s image. He is distinct from him.

    So, we’ll run the time STARTING from WHEN he showed up ON EARTH, as a man. This is generally what everybody refers to, anyway. I knew that! This was HIS FIRST coming to earth, as a man. (Heb.1,2)

    Did you know that the OT NEVER states there are TWO COMINGS? Search and see. WE KNOW there are more than one. The Jews AT HIS FIRST ONE didn’t though! (John 12, 1 Peter 1) They didn’t understand what WE do. They didn’t KNOW who the son of man was. They KNEW of his coming. (Mal.3) They knew him to be the Messiah, the anointed one. He CONFOUNDED them by it. (Isaiah It was a SINGLE ONE as far as they knew.

    He appeared on earth to them, literally, physically, and visibly, by birth. (2 Tim.1, Heb.2) That coming occurred at, which was also called his appearing, WHEN he was born.

    All right, we got the first coming ESTABLISHED by Scripture.

    Now, the Lord is going BACK to heaven after his ministry of suffering on this earth. He has told his apostles that he is going away and coming again. (John 14) This will be a reference to what people teach as the SECOND coming.

    The Lord Jesus Christ dies, and is resurrected. (John 20) Mary comes to the grave and finds the stone rolled away. She goes and tells Peter and John. They come and look, and then leave. Mary stood by, weeping, about where they had moved the Lord. She then sees Jesus, but doesn’t RECOGNIZE him. He makes himself known, and tells her to go to his brethren, and say unto them, “I ASCEND unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” He told her, “TOUCH ME NOT; for I am not yet ascended to my Father”. She goes and tells them she has seen him, and the things he SPOKE to her.

    Brethren, the Lord Jesus is LEAVING this earth. He is going to ASCEND. He has some business with the Father to attend to. He LEFT this world, to go BACK to heaven. He led captivity captive BACK to heaven! (Eph.4) This occurred at his resurrection brethren, NOT his ascension in Acts 2. The Lord Jesus went BACK, and CAME BACK to this earth AGAIN, and met his disciples. When they see him, they HELD HIS FEET, and worshipped him. (Matt.28)

    That is his SECOND COMING. I know you don’t like it, but that’s what the Book SHOWS. The apostles didn’t see him go, nor return. In fact, he went UP and CAME BACK DOWN, in a very short time, from when Mary was sent away from him.

    Let’s stop for a minute, and look at some things concerning his APPEARANCE to them.
    If you read the accounts in John and Luke, you will find that he “appeared” to people. These appearings are special. He appears “SECRETLY” to them. Only believers see him. He appears “INSTANTANEOUSLY” to them. When he’s through, he VANISHES. Now you see him, now you don’t. He appears in a room with the doors shut, in the MIDST of them. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! Ah yes, that’s HOW he “appeared” to them.

    Don’t get mad at me. That’s what the Book SHOWS.

    Let’s go further in the Book. Don’t you just love it?

    Now the posties are mad. They HAVE TO BELIEVE what the text states, UNLESS they’re apostates. Some of them are.

    They say, “Well, we mean from when he ascended in Acts 2”. Ok, let’s go from there. Now, I have heard them teach that Jesus Christ stays SEATED until the coming. They use Psalm 110 for a prooftext, along with Acts 3. That is the most blantant piece of unlearned biblical teaching that I have ever seen.

    I “allowed” the Book to correct one of these guys, and showed him Acts 7. STEPHEN saw him GET UP. The man was flabbergasted. I then showed him, that he STANDS more than once. See Isaiah 3. But, let’s get on with the appearings.

    Jesus Christ ascends into heaven, and the two men standing by tell the apostles he will come back, as they saw him go into heaven. They saw him ascend and a cloud received him out of their sight. They saw him literally, visibly, and physically go up, 40 days AFTER his resurrection. They did not see the ascension of John 20 or his descension.

    Notice they were NOT told, THEY would SEE HIM return in Acts 2.

    They start preaching the message to the nation of Israel in Acts 2. They’re telling them to Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In Acts 3, they tell them, Repent, and be converted, and their sins will be BLOTTED out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the PRESENCE of the Lord, and he shall SEND Jesus Christ.

    They’re looking for Israel to get saved, and Jesus Christ to come back, and set up the kingdom. That is, what the apostles wanted to know. WHEN was the kingdom coming? Acts 1. The Lord told them, it’s not for you to know the times and the seasons which the Father has put in his own power, but just get out there and be witnesses unto me.

    Well, time goes on, with some getting saved, but a lot of persecution going on.

    Stephen is killed, and Saul of Tarsus stands by assenting to his death. Good, old Saul, is a zealous, law-abiding, righteous, Pharisee, who’s headed right into the wrath to come. (Matt.3) He’s happily murdering bible believing Jews, men and women, whom he thinks are heretics according to the law. He is unleashed HELL on wheels. He is PERSONALLY mad against them, and makes them blaspheme. (Acts 26) He WAS the rebellion of Israel against “this way”. He was the “chief” leader of the rebellion. How do I know that? The Holy Spirit “pointed it out” in the book of Acts! He gets letters from the priest, and is going to Damascus to kill some more of these people.

    Well, you know what happens don’t you?

    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST APPEARS TO HIM ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

    Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

    Well, how about that! Jesus Christ “GOT UP” out of his seat, and CAME DOWN, so Paul could SEE HIM. He appeared to him, people.

    That’s the THIRD COMING to this earth that is recorded by the Holy Scriptures. I know, I know, you’re hotter than a popcorn popper. Too bad. Do you believe the Book? Or do you believe a system?

    Now notice, that Paul did not see the Lord “DESCEND FROM HEAVEN”. He appeared to him, “instantaneously”. He just “showed up” to STOP HIM from murdering people, give him OPPORTUNITY to “believe” on him (those ****** were hurting), WHICH HE DID, and give instructions as to where he should go, and who he should see afterward, who would tell him what things he must do. One thing though, that was different from the 12 seeing him, was that Paul saw the Lord Jesus Christ in is GLORIFIED HEAVENLY BODY. (1 Cor.15:47-4 They never saw him like that.

    It should also be noticed, that Paul saw the Lord, “SECRETLY”. It was a secret appearance to him. THE OTHERS DID NOT SEE THE LORD. Jesus Christ “came down” and appeared to him.

    When Paul gives his testimony in Acts 9, 22. 26, 1 Cor.15, and 1 Cor.9, he STATES that he SAW the Lord Jesus. Jesus Christ was ALIVE, according to his testimony, to Porcius Festus. (Acts 25) How did he KNOW and TEACH that unless he had “SEEN” him alive. He had! Just as the Mary, his brethren, his apostles, and over 500 brethren, who did.

    This WAS NO PHANTOM. It was no angel sent to him. It was no dream. He wasn’t asleep. He was wide awake. This was the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    According to Paul the apostle, he was the LAST to see the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor.15: He saw him, JUST AS THE 12 did. He saw him literally, visibly, physically, and in his GLORIFIED HEAVENLY BODY.
    Paul the apostle can testify to the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ. WHEN he says that, we KNOW what HE is talking about. (1 Tim.6, 2 Tim.4, Titus 2) He states it, and the Scriptures testify to it.

    We’re on our third time, aren’t we? Sure we are. Get ready for the fourth time, the Lord COMES DOWN from heaven.

    In Acts 23, we find the passage showing that after Paul has stood before the Sanhedrin, and testified some, and made those “unChristlike” statements, he is paid a visit.

    Guess who visits him in the castle? You forgot about it, didn’t you?

    Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

    I know, I know. It does make you mad. The Holy Scriptures will throw a monkey wrench in the system EVERYTIME. I go by this rule.

    ALTER THE SYSTEM TO FIT THE WORDS OF THE BOOK. He does not go by systems. He changes the rules. He MAKES his own.

    WITNESS THIS FACT! Let the Holy Scriptures demonstrate a change before your very eyes.

    He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel. (Matt.10, 15) The woman of Caanan STILL got what she wanted. HE BENT THE RULES THAT HE STATED. There are exceptions to the rules.

    The post will CONTINUE.
     
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  2. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    All right, I’m gonna’ wrap this thing up, now.

    Paul sees the Lord a FIFTH recorded time. That is three times OVER what the posties teach concerning his appearing. They don’t know what they’re talking about.

    Who in the world believes and “WOULD STATE” that the Lord ONLY COMES twice? How can they from what the Holy Scriptures STATE?

    Well, Paul is ON HIS WAY to Rome. That’s what he wanted, (Rom. 1), and that’s what he got, after disobeying the verbal warnings of the PROPHETS of God, to NOT go up to Jerusalem. (Acts 21)

    He’s going by boat. Ah yes, you remember NOW. He is visited AGAIN by the Lord.

    Acts 27:22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

    Acts 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

    Acts 27:24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

    Acts 27:25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

    You say, that was an angel. That was not JUST an angel. That was the angel of God. It was his APPEARANCE. Paul DOESN’T “serve” any angel, nor does he “belong or is the property of” any angel.

    The angel of God IS the Lord Jesus Christ. That is WHO he saw. Notice the verse of scripture, brethren. Paul DEFINES the term, angel of God. I KNOW what he said. I KNOW what he was talking about. I know WHO he was talking about. How? He STATED it in plain English.

    Galatians 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    Well, bless my soul, that’s the fiftth recorded APPEARING of the Lord Jesus Christ. He has came back AGAIN to SEE Paul.

    No, we’re NOT through yet. There’s one more time. This makes 6 recorded times that Jesus Christ has APPPEARED which includes his “first coming and appearing”.

    Paul stands before Caesar, and the Lord is there.

    2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

    2 Timothy 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion

    You know EXACTLY what he STATES for he says NO MAN stood with him. He contrasts it, and says the Lord did.

    You say, Yeah, but.. Yeah, he stood with him. Paul “saw him” brethren. You can’t get that, can you?

    The Lord Jesus Christ appeared MANY times to Paul throughout his ministry. (Acts 26) He had many revelations, visions, and APPEARINGS of the Lord unto him. (2 Cor.12)

    The 7th RECORDED appearing is the one Paul speaks of for the body of Christ. Titus 2 and Col.3. It is the LAST ONE, of this type, for Paul WAS the last to SEE him. We KNOW HOW he saw him!

    The truth of the matter, is that the Bible does NOT teach that Jesus Christ appears ONLY twice to this earth.

    Yes, I know Heb.9:28.

    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Did you think I would leave without expositing the verse?

    Jesus Christ’s first appearance was to the nation of Israel.

    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

    The book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews. That wasn’t hard, was it? It’s not written to spiritual Jews, Christians, Gentiles, members of the body of Christ, or spiritual Israel. It’s written to Hebrews. They are a RACE, and a NATION of people. Christ was of their seed, and they are CHRIST’s seed. (Heb.2)

    Notice that he was once offered to bear the sins of MANY. This has doctrinal reference to those of Israel, the tribes of Judah and Israel, the political divisions of the nation, whom are HEBREWS.

    (Isaiah 53:1-12, the we, us, and many are Hebrews) The text is about the “transgression of my people”. He was "cut off" for THEIR TRANSGRESSION.

    Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision, and was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Rom.15, Matt.10,15)
    The new covenant is for the house of Israel and Judah. (Jer.31, Matt.26) Notice the “MANY”. Notice it again, in Matt.20.
    This is what the book of Hebrews teaches.

    He was offered for them. THEY (the Hebrew NATION) saw him ONCE, at his first coming. UNTO THEM that look for him (the Hebrew NATION) will he appear the SECOND TIME.

    This occurs AFTER the great tribulation. That IS the SECOND time, the Hebrews, AS A NATION, see him. They do not SEE HIM before.

    The first time Joseph’s brethren see him, they don’t recognize him. The second time, he is REVEALED unto them. This is the revelation of Jesus Christ to the nation of Israel. (Acts 7) It has nothing to do with the body of Christ, as revealed to Paul

    The doctrinal message revealed to Paul, IN DUE TIME, was that Jesus Christ died for ALL MEN. He did not die, just for MANY. See also Titus 1:1-3, and Eph.3:1-11.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

    That is scripture with scripture interpretation, by the Holy Spirit’s words from his Book.

    The Lord Jesus Christ appears ONCE in suffering, and TWICE in glory, TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL.

    The text does NOT state he comes ONLY TWICE. It states unto them that LOOK for him, shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This book is written to Hebrews, which deals with “their looking for him”, and “their kingdom”. It is written to them, for they go INTO the great tribulation, for it is the time of Jacobs trouble.

    Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    The gathering of the body of Christ is NOT CONNECTED with this appearing. The appearing to them is OPEN and SUSTAINED. See Matt.24, Rev.1, 6, 19. This is the appearing of Jesus Christ that Peter spoke of to the NATION, which is at his REVELATION. (1 Peter 1,2)

    They, the nation of Israel, the Hebrews are ministered the abundant entrance into the kingdom. See 2 Peter 1:11.

    The appearing to the body of Christ, of which PAUL is the PATTERN, is secret, and instantaneous. He KNEW what he meant, when he said,

    1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

    1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

    2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    The glorious appearing has LONG BEEN MISTAKEN as the coming of Christ AFTER the great tribulation, but it is not. Paul’s TESTIMONY as to the appearing of the Lord Jesus is SECRET and INSTANTANEOUS, seeing him in his glorious body, which WE WILL RECEIVE when he appears!

    Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

    Notice when he appears, then we appear (instantaneously, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye) in glory.

    We appear in glory. We get our body.

    Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    The 8th RECORDED time the Lord Jesus Christ appears is AFTER the great tribulation. (1 Peter 1) It is the SECOND time unto the nation of Israel. (Heb.9) HE NEVER LEAVES AGAIN. Revelation 11:15. If he did, HE’D “still be with us” through his Spirit, and anybody would KNOW what he "looked like" for there are MANY "replicas" of HIM. (Rom.8:29)

    8 is the beginning of the NEW.

    LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
     
  3. chagal was here

    chagal was here jack's raging bile

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    uh... yeah.
    what he said
     
  4. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Single
    Be carefull Chagal , Big brother is watching .
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe there are, as we are told how Jesus' 2nd coming/appearing (Hebrews 9:28) will be: just like his ascension in reverse (Acts 1:11), and after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30). The scriptures don't teach a 3rd coming.

    I don't believe he left and came back, but that in John 20:17 he was telling Mary not to hold on because (as he told the disciples in John 14), he still had to go to heaven before he came back for good. I believe Matthew 28:9 and John 20:17 describe the same event from different perspectives.

    I don't believe Jesus' appearing at the rapture will be secret, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven... with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:30-31); "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7), "for as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day... Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:24-36); "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

    I don't believe Jesus' appearing at the rapture will be instantaneous, for he will appear by descending (1 Thessalonians 4:16), just as at the ascension he disappeared by ascending (Acts 1:11).

    Note that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that. It includes first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints and all those changed into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    I don't believe Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to earth.

    Note that this doesn't require the physical presence of Jesus, for Jesus said "lo, I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20).

    Jesus himself didn't stand by Paul on the ship in the storm; an angel did. Paul serves God: "God, whose I am, and whom I serve." Jesus is not an angel (Hebrews 1:5).

    See my reply above regarding Acts 23:11.

    How could partakers of Christ waiting for his appearance (Hebrews 3:14, 9:28) not be in his body? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-5); "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Paul is a Hebrew: "Are they Hebrews? so am I" (2 Corinthians 11:22).

    "An Hebrew of the Hebrews" (Philippians 3:5).

    "I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 26:14)

    Believing Gentiles also partake of the New Covenant: "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28); "Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" (John 11:52-52); "At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19).

    Are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

    I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52.
     
  6. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Notice the man doesn't produce ANY VERSES which refute the statements. Check them out. Go to the ones he posted and SEE if they REFUTE the statements of the original post.

    He said it right. He "doesn't believe" that they MEAN what they state.

    Quote:
    I don't believe he left and came back
    I don't believe Jesus' appearing at the rapture will be secret,
    I don't believe Jesus' appearing at the rapture will be instantaneous
    I don't believe Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to earth.

    Those are just a few. The rest SHOW the same thing. The man DOESN'T believe what the TEXT states. He doesn't and can't produce ANY VERSES which refute the statements. He "thinks" they don't MEAN that. No texts TO REFUTE "that" though.

    The appearing of the Lord CAN BE open and sustained as it was at his first coming to earth, WHEN he came to the nation of Israel, and will be AGAIN, WHEN he comes after the great tribulation to gather the nation of Israel.
    (Gen.49:10, Isaiah 27:12-13, 11:12, Matt.24:29-31) Notice the verses speak of Israel and a gathering. They DON'T SPEAK of the body of Christ.

    Paul's gathering was a MYSTERY, which was revealed to him by the word of the Lord. He said it was. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4) It was UNKNOWN before him for it was a SECRET. He REVEALED it to others, as he did the other mysteries GIVEN him. (Eph.3)

    The mystery of 1 Cor.15 includes four facts.

    There will be a gathering of the body of Christ, LIVING AND DEAD. A resurrection is TIED to this gathering of saints within the body of Christ. This gathering was UNKNOWN before Paul. NO GATHERING before Paul INCLUDES dead people.

    It's timing will be at the last trump, on the day of Christ, BEFORE the day of the Lord. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.5, 2 Thess.2)

    It will occur in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
    This is instantaneous as he appeared to the 12 and Paul, AFTER his resurrection.

    There will be an appearance of the Lord AT this gathering which is SECRET. He will not be seen by the world, BUT ONLY BY THE MEMBERS OF HIS BODY. (Acts 9, 1 Tim.1, John 14)

    Those are the facts. All are supported by the Scriptures.

    He not only APPEARS, but WE "appear" with him. (Col.3) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, just like he said.

    The appearance of the Lord can be open and sustained (2 Tim.1:10, Hebrews 9:26) or secret and instantaneous. (Mark 16, Luke 24, Acts 9, 26)

    Anyone who says otherwise doesn't KNOW what he's talking about and can't read what the verses STATE.
     
  7. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    I think 2nd coming refers more to "2nd extended stay" but that's too complicated so we just say 2nd coming.
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe they mean what they state; I don't believe they mean what you stated.

    Some say the coming of Jesus and the gathering of the church taught by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 can't be the same as the coming and gathering already taught by Jesus in John 14:3 and Matthew 24:29-31 because Paul said the rapture and resurrection of the church was a "mystery," that is, that it had not already been taught. But note that all Paul said was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," that is, that not all Christians would have to die before being changed into their immortal bodies. The rapture and resurrection of all Christians was not a mystery, for Jesus had already clearly taught that: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3); "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40, 44, 54).

    Note again that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that, which I pointed out in my prior post.

    Note that these scriptures don't state that Jesus' appearance at the rapture will be secret.

    I'm sorry you feel that way about someone who may disagree with your own statements.
     
  9. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Another typical post of ignorance, illiteracy, and infidelity to what is stated.

    The poor man can't read mystery in the verse. Typical illiteracy.

    The poor man doesn't know that Jesus appeared secretly to Paul, (in fact, the infidel doesn't believe he appeared AS HE SAID), in Acts 9. (See 1 Cor.15 for it being a literal, visible, physical appearance, ALONG with being GLORIFED. Acts 22)

    He doesn't know that WHEN Paul talked about the appearing of Jesus Christ, (1 Tim. 1), he spoke of the ONE he SAW, not the 12. (secret and instantaneous appearnace)

    The whole thing is topped off with his insanity that THESE VERSES do not show a "difference in the appearings".

    Open and sustained. (1 Tim.1, Heb.9)
    Secret and instantaneous. (John 29, Mark 16, Luke 24, Acts 9, 26)

    What unbelief. Oh, well. Typical of those who follow a system, and not the Book.

    No disagreement with me. Just the Holy Spirit who wrote the BOOK. I could care less what you believe.

    As long as you keep STATING foolishness, I'll keep confounding with it BY THE TRUTH of God's words.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 requires that Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to the earth, and that no scripture requires that Jesus' coming at the rapture will be either secret or instantaneous.
     
  11. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    The man just "keeps on" demonstrating foolishness, which is easily overthrown by the VERSES.

    Another typical post of ignorance (the context of 1 Cor.15 IS the literal, visible, physical RESURRECTION of the Lord Jesus), infidelity(Note he doesn't believe that Paul SAW the Lord Jesus Christ AS the 12, WHO SAW HIM literally, visibly, and physically)and illiteracy (demonstrated by the fact he can't read and understand WHAT IS STATED IN THE TEXT;a literal, visible, physical resurrection of the Lord being SEEN by Peter, the 12, 500 brethren, James, then all of the apostles, and THEN LAST was seen of Paul.

    What false teaching, blatant reprobation, and obsene manipulation of the text as STATED.

    He "appeared" to Paul. (Acts 9) That appearing was secret and instantaneous. (Acts 9) The only appearing that Paul saw is the one recorded HE SAW, which was secret and instantaneous. He KNOWS what he's talking about when he says appearing for US, the body of Christ, which HE IS THE PATTERN. (1 Tim.1,6)

    Utter stupidity from a demented mind.

    Let's see what is posted to overthrow the VERSES STATED.
    I'm sure there will be none.
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note again that nothing in 1 Corinthians 15 requires that Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to the earth,

    Note again that no scripture requires that Jesus' coming at the rapture will be either secret or instantaneous.

    Note that Paul said he is a pattern to unbelievers for how longsuffering Jesus can be for the repentance of even the greatest of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16), not that all those who repent will have a heavenly vision of Jesus like he did.

    I'm sorry you feel that I am stupid and demented.
     
  13. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    I was correct. The man couldn't post ONE VERSE, to refute the statements. The man just keeps posting REDUNDANT ILLITERACY, IGNORANCE, and INFIDELITY.

    Geez.

    He can't OVERTHROW the statements of the verses. He never does. He posts what he "thinks".

    I "feel" nothing about you. You "DEMONSTRATE" your ignorance, infidelity, and illiteracy. I just point it out to others.

    IDENTIFICATION of false teachers and their false teaching is required of those who are called to the ministry. (Titus 1)
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that your statements are not supported by what the verses state.


     Amen, for I agree with them.


    Note that I cite the scriptures upon which my thoughts are based.

      I'm sorry you believe that I demonstrate ignorance, infidelity, and illiteracy.

    I believe I have repeatedly identified what is false within your doctrine.
     
  15. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Poor fellow must have a lot of those theological devils from Satan.  Argue with God Almighty and his book. 

    The appearance of the Lord to Paul was secret and instantaneous.  He "appeared" to him as he did to the 12 INSIDE rooms with the doors closed, then VANISHES.  He appears more than once.

    Prooftexts. 

    Watch the devils go to work and LIE about the verses.

    Acts 9:7   And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 


    &nbsp;<TT><B>Acts 9:17</B></TT> &nbsp; And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, <I>even</I> Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.


    &nbsp;<TT><B>Acts 22:14</B></TT> &nbsp; And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;<TT><B>Acts 22:15</B></TT> &nbsp; For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;<TT><B>Acts 26:16</B></TT> &nbsp; But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

    1 Corinthians 15:5 &nbsp; And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    &nbsp;&nbsp;<TT><B>1 Corinthians 15:6</B></TT> &nbsp; After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;<TT><B>1 Corinthians 15:7</B></TT> &nbsp; After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    &nbsp;&nbsp;<TT><B>1 Corinthians 15:8</B></TT> &nbsp; And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    &nbsp;<TT><B>John 20:19</B></TT> &nbsp; Then the same day at evening, being the first <I>day</I> of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace <I>be</I> unto you.

    John 20:26 &nbsp; And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: <I>then</I> came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace <I>be</I> unto you.


    Luke 24:31 &nbsp; And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


    Folks, it's dirty business when you deal with&nbsp; people who DENY the verses, words,&nbsp;and their teachings.&nbsp;

    The appearance of the Lord can be open and sustained or secret and instantaneous.&nbsp; The ONLY way Paul ever SAW the Lord was secret and instantaneous, ALONG with his being GLORIFIED, which the 12 did not.&nbsp; He wrote about the ONLY&nbsp;APPEARING he&nbsp;ever saw.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is the ONE we will see, for he is our pattern.

    Simple for some.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Truth to be distorted&nbsp;by others.

    &nbsp;
     
  16. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahaha ha ha.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe Paul's vision of Jesus was secret insofar as it was accompanied by a light brighter than the sun which those with him could see, and by a voice which those with him could hear:

    "I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me" (Acts 26:13).

    "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice" (Acts 9:7).

    Similarly, the rapture will not be secret insofar as it is compared to lightning and will be accompanied by sounds:

    "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day... Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:24, 30, 36).

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

    I don't believe Paul's vision of Jesus was instantaneous as it involved a conversation (Acts 9:4-6, 26:14-18).

    Similarly, I don't believe the rapture will be instantaneous as it will involve first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints and all those changed into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    After he resurrected, Jesus appeared to the disciples physically before he ascended:

    "Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" (Acts 1:2-3).

    "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

    But note that nothing requires that Paul's "heavenly vision" of Jesus (Acts 26:19) was a physical coming of Jesus to the earth.

    Note that I affirm the verses.

    Note that in Revelation the Apostle John also had a vision of Jesus glorified: "And his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (Revelation 1:16); just as he and the Apostles Peter and James had had an earlier vision of Jesus glorified: "His face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light" (Matthew 17:2).

    Note again that while Paul did say he is a pattern to unbelievers for how longsuffering Jesus can be for the repentance of even the greatest of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16), he didn't say that all those who repent will have a heavenly vision of Jesus like he did.
     
  18. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Did you watch the man?

    After dealing with Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Roman Catholics, and other false teachers, this man is the worst for he claims to be a Christian, and DENYS the statements of the verses.

    He produced mumble jumble. Look at it. Read it. NO CLEAR STATEMENTS to refute what the Bible has stated.

    He COULD NOT REFUTE no one else SAW the Lord in Acts 9. It was a secret appearance as stated. They didn't SEE him. The verse STATES that. He produced NO VERSES to refute. He talked about "HOW", not WHO saw him.

    He COULD NOT REFUTE the appearance was instantaneous. NOT THE LENGTH OF IT. The appearance of him to Paul. It was SUDDENLY, without warning. That's instantaneous. (Acts 9:3) The verses STATED that.

    He COULD NOT REFUTE the appearance of the Lord INSIDE THE ROOMS as it was an instantaneous appearance. He APPEARED
    "in the midst of them". The verses STATED that.

    He COULD NOT REFUTE the appearance of the Lord to Paul IN A GLORIFIED BODY. The verses have already shown it was secret and instantaneous. (1 Cor.15:47, Phil.3:21)

    Paul is OUR PATTERN and the appearance of Jesus Christ to him is the WAY he saw him. GLORIFIED, SECRET, and INSTANTANEOUS. When Paul writes about the appearance of the Lord, he writes in reference to THAT APPEARANCE.
    He COULD NOT REFUTE that the appearance to Paul was the ONLY ONE he wrote about, WHICH THE BODY, of which HE is the patter, will see.

    HE DISTORTED ALL THE VERSES. Typical from a man who holds to a system of false doctrine.
     
  19. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    But note again that Paul's vision was accompanied by sights and sounds that they did see and hear, so the event didn't happen secretly, just as the rapture won't.

    Are instantaneous and sudden synonymous?

    Note that what came suddenly was the light from heaven (Acts 9:3, 22:6). If&nbsp;we&nbsp;equate this light with Paul's vision of Jesus, then the&nbsp;vision wasn't secret, for those with Paul saw the light.

    Also note that the sudden light from heaven was so&nbsp;bright that it blinded Paul's physical eyes (Acts 22:11) and caused him to fall to the ground (Acts 9:4) with his now-blinded eyes closed (Acts 9:8).&nbsp;It then says that Paul "heard a voice." So Paul's "heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19) of Jesus came after his and his companions saw the light and heard the voice. It doesn't say at what point in the conversation Jesus appeared to Paul or how gradually or suddenly he may have shown himself.

    Do you mean a sudden appearance?

    Jesus will come suddenly to us if we don't keep spiritually awake: "Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping" (Mark 13:36); "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). But Paul says that if we watch for that day it need not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    Note once more that while Paul said he is a pattern to unbelievers for how longsuffering Jesus can be for the repentance of even the greatest of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15-16), he didn't say that all those who repent will have a heavenly vision of Jesus like he did.
     
  20. sarkazma

    sarkazma New Member

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    hey buddy, carlaimapge or whatever your name is... try speaking directly to the guy your arguing with hey.... he's making some good points there chum so listen up
     
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