LDS Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.

[Kiwi Christian]

Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.

Simply believing in someone named Jesus means NOTHING unless we are talking about the historic, Biblical Jesus.
The apostle Paul warns us in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus.
- The Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1). Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood. In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.

- The Bible says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-5. Is. 7:14. Matt. 1:18,20. Mormons see Jesus as being CREATED by sexual relations between God the father and mary. "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50). "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51). Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended by any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).

- Mormons see Jesus as a polygamist. Apostle Orson Hyde: "…Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee... Mary, Martha, and others were his wives ... he begat children" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210). Jedediah M. Grant: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82). Orson Hyde: "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it" (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259). Orson Pratt: "We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives are to be married" (The Seer, p. 172).

- The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. This includes lucifer. Gen. 3:1, Ez. 28:13,15,17Mormons see Jesus as a brother of satan, not His brother.

- Mormons see Jesus was procreated as a spirit child of the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and later conceived physically by the Heavenly Father and an earthly mother: The Ensign, Jan. 1989, pp.28-29; Come Unto Christ by Ezra Taft Benson, p.4). Bruce McConkie states: "Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence" (What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36).
Bruce McConkie continues: "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129).
Orson Pratt: "God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born" (The Seer, p. 172).
"Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol.4, Appendix 4).

 

[Jane_Doe]

Biblical Jesus Vs. Mormon Jesus.

Simply believing in someone named Jesus means NOTHING unless we are talking about the historic, Biblical Jesus.
The apostle Paul warns us in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus.
- The Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1). Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood. In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.

- The Bible says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-5. Is. 7:14. Matt. 1:18,20. Mormons see Jesus as being CREATED by sexual relations between God the father and mary. "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50). "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51). Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended by any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit" (Religious Truths Defined, p.44). Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).

- Mormons see Jesus as a polygamist. Apostle Orson Hyde: "…Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee... Mary, Martha, and others were his wives ... he begat children" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210). Jedediah M. Grant: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified" (Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82). Orson Hyde: "It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the best of it" (Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259). Orson Pratt: "We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born... We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives are to be married" (The Seer, p. 172).

- The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. This includes lucifer. Gen. 3:1, Ez. 28:13,15,17Mormons see Jesus as a brother of satan, not His brother.

- Mormons see Jesus was procreated as a spirit child of the Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and later conceived physically by the Heavenly Father and an earthly mother: The Ensign, Jan. 1989, pp.28-29; Come Unto Christ by Ezra Taft Benson, p.4). Bruce McConkie states: "Christ the Word, the Firstborn, had of course attained unto the status of Godhood while yet in pre-existence" (What Mormons Think of Christ, p.36).
Bruce McConkie continues: "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg. 129).
Orson Pratt: "God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born" (The Seer, p. 172).
"Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons and daughters of Elohim." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol.4, Appendix 4).

Where in the Bible may I read about the Trinity and the shared ousia between the Father/Son/Spirit?

Oh... no where. It's not in the Bible.

Threads like this always make me laugh.

 

[Winken]

Where in the Bible may I read about the Trinity and the shared ousia between the Father/Son/Spirit?

Oh... no where. It's not in the Bible.

Threads like this always make me laugh.

Yep, it's in there. Praying that you will find ALL of the references!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yep, it's in there. Praying that you will find ALL of the references!

You keep telling me that, but have yet to show me a verse.

 

[Winken]

You keep telling me that, but have yet to show me a verse.

Seek and you shall find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

 

[Ironhold]

Seek and you shall find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

That's not how it's done in a proper debate.

In a proper debate, if you don't provide the support for your argument - including, in this case, specific verses of scripture - then it's essentially an admission of defeat.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Mormons don't believe as a point of doctrine that Jesus was married, just because a few people speculated doesn't mean it's doctrine. It would have to be put before the Quorum of the Twelve to be voted on and then written into scripture somehow, similar to what has happened with our Mother in Heaven when the Family Proclamation was written. President Hinckley was asked if Jesus was married and he replied;

'It doesn't matter if the pearly gates swing or slide just as long as they open'

It really doesn't matter unless you are arguing over him being fully human and partaking of the human experience fully.

 

[Winken]

That's not how it's done in a proper debate.

In a proper debate, if you don't provide the support for your argument - including, in this case, specific verses of scripture - then it's essentially an admission of defeat.

That is "how it is done" in acknowledging Truth. With His Truth at the ready, one can never lose a debate! Pow! In fact, one does not have to debate! The Truth is already known! However, in order to win souls to salvation in Jesus Christ, by Grace through Faith, one points another to scripture. That's where the debate ends, and Truth begins. Amen!

 

[Jane_Doe]

However, in order to win souls to salvation in Jesus Christ, by Grace through Faith, one points another to scripture. That's where the debate ends, and Truth begins. Amen!

Can you point me to a verse that talks about a shared ousia then?

 

[Winken]

Can you point me to a verse that talks about a shared ousia then?

The Trinity is not shared. "It" is One Being, One Essence. It is what it is, without dependence on any other entity outside of itself. God IS. He is not visible. He IS before creation. The Godhead IS the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. Notice: IS, not are.

Before Genesis 1:1 the Godhead IS. IN Genesis 1:1 we read, linguistically: ... In the beginning of space and time One utterly united plural noun Elohim created. The Trinity spoke everything into existence.

Following the many failures of the Hebrew folk to "get in line" with the Creator's will, the Creator, in the Person of Jesus, the Promised Hebrew Messiah, was Spiritually birthed in Bethlehem. Underline "Spiritually." NO physical contact! At that very split-second The Trinity (Three Spiritual Persons in One) embraced the womb of Mary.

I need to relax, enter a time of prayer. I'll be happy to return to this, perhaps tomorrow.

Be blessed in Him!

 

[Jane_Doe]

One Essence.

Which scripture verse says this?

He is not visible.

Is Christ not God then? He's visible...

 

[Ironhold]

With His Truth at the ready, one can never lose a debate!

If that's your attitude when talking to people, then you've lost their attention before you've even said a word.

Your average person is going to want you to say *why* you believe what you believe. Not just what you believe.

 

[Winken]

Which scripture verse says this?

Genesis 1:1 is a great place to start: Elohim. Be sure to read right on through the Book of Romans, John, Hebrews........ you can skip Revelation. Let me know what you underline.......

Is Christ not God then? He's visible...

Genesis 1:1 says that. God became the visible presentation of Jesus, the Christ (Redeemer) of the Hebrew folk and Savior of humankind.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Genesis 1:1 is a great place to start: Elohim. Be sure to read right on through the Book of Romans, John, Hebrews........ you can skip Revelation. Let me know what you underline.......

I have read those books many times. There is nothing that says God is of one "essence". Is there another word perhaps you are meaning to use?

Genesis 1:1 says that. God became the visible presentation of Jesus, the Christ (Redeemer) of the Hebrew folk and Savior of humankind.

I'm seeing two statements:
1) Jesus is God.
2) God is invisible.
Assuming both of those statements are true, basic logic we conclude that--
Jesus is invisible.
But this conclusion contradicts your statement here. Is statement #1 or #2 false?
Note: I'm actually trying not to be obstinate here. I've always wondered how Creed-believers can say both statements 1 and 2 without reaching the conclusion that Christ is invisible.

 

[Winken]

I have read those books many times. There is nothing that says God is of one "essence". Is there another word perhaps you are meaning to use?

I'm seeing two statements:
1) Jesus is God.
2) God is invisible.
Assuming both of those statements are true, basic logic we conclude that--
Jesus is invisible.
But this conclusion contradicts your statement here. Is statement #1 or #2 false?
Note: I'm actually trying not to be obstinate here. I've always wondered how Creed-believers can say both statements 1 and 2 without reaching the conclusion that Christ is invisible.

God in Three Spiritual Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, not three separate "gods," but One invisible God of the universe, God of everything, without beginning, without end. The invisible God was made available to us in the Person of Jesus. He was the physical manifestation of God. He said, "I and My Father are One." Following His crucifixion, He continued to witness to the Disciples for 40 days...... then He was Spiritually caught up to Heaven. (If He chose to appear to you today, you would see Him). Right now He is in Spiritual union with the Father and the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1 = 1.

 

[Jane_Doe]

God in Three Spiritual Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, not three separate "gods," but One invisible God of the universe, God of everything, without beginning, without end. The invisible God was made available to us in the Person of Jesus. He was the physical manifestation of God. He said, "I and My Father are One." Following His crucifixion, He continued to witness to the Disciples for 40 days...... then He was Spiritually caught up to Heaven. (If He chose to appear to you today, you would see Him). Right now He is in Spiritual union with the Father and the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1 = 1.

This totally does not address either of my questions....

 

[Winken]

This totally does not address either of my questions....

OK .......... Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears ...... I've dispatched Paul Revere......

God is Spirit; not "a" spirit. He has no limitations. He is Biblically revealed as "three" (Triunity) with the ONE unifying essence of deity. We cannot identify Him or disassemble or assemble Him with our mind-mental limitations. HE identifies Himself --- we are approached to learn from Him Spiritually via the Holy Spirit.

In Genesis God caused to be written, "Let US make 'humans' in OUR image." He identified Himself to Moses as "I AM!" That is Spiritually transmitted as "before and after everything." Jesus identified Himself as "I AM!" He also said "Before Abraham was, "I AM!" When He said that, the Jewish leadership threw stones at Him, saying "He calls Himself God!"

Other evidences:

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our GOD, the LORD is One!"

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

"There is no God but One."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name (singular) of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit."

"I and the Father are One."

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus, the physical representation of the Father, yet having all the attributes of God.

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." Again, all the attributes.

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." Three in unity.

"Even though you do not believe me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father."

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth." Absolute Spiritual Perfection.

Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas replied, "My Lord-God!"

There is so much more! However, in your Bible reading, in your search of scriptures, you must yield to HIS interpretation and application. Informative passages are these:

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV)

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (KJV)

Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV)

If our trust is in Him, we cannot, must not, depend upon our own mind-mental capabilities! They are utterly, totally, inadequate!

Now:
Romans 10:8-13
Romans 8:1
John 5:24
Ephesians 2:8-9

Be blessed as HE reveals the Truth of His Wonderful Word!

 

[Jane_Doe]

OK .......... Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears ...... I've dispatched Paul Revere......

God is Spirit; not "a" spirit. He has no limitations. He is Biblically revealed as "three" (Triunity) with the ONE unifying essence of deity. We cannot identify Him or disassemble or assemble Him with our mind-mental limitations. HE identifies Himself --- we are approached to learn from Him Spiritually via the Holy Spirit.

In Genesis God caused to be written, "Let US make 'humans' in OUR image." He identified Himself to Moses as "I AM!" That is Spiritually transmitted as "before and after everything." Jesus identified Himself as "I AM!" He also said "Before Abraham was, "I AM!" When He said that, the Jewish leadership threw stones at Him, saying "He calls Himself God!"

Other evidences:

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our GOD, the LORD is One!"

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

"There is no God but One."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name (singular) of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit."

"I and the Father are One."

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus, the physical representation of the Father, yet having all the attributes of God.

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me." Again, all the attributes.

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him." Three in unity.

"Even though you do not believe me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father."

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in His mouth." Absolute Spiritual Perfection.

Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas replied, "My Lord-God!"

There is so much more! However, in your Bible reading, in your search of scriptures, you must yield to HIS interpretation and application. Informative passages are these:

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV)

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (KJV)

Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV)

If our trust is in Him, we cannot, must not, depend upon our own mind-mental capabilities! They are utterly, totally, inadequate!

Now:
Romans 10:8-13
Romans 8:1
John 5:24
Ephesians 2:8-9

Be blessed as HE reveals the Truth of His Wonderful Word!

Again, this does not address my questions.

Where does it talk about the Father/Son/Spirit being one in essence. Please tell me the exact verse I can read this exact thing. If you do not mean this word that you have been using, may you please tell me a more accurate word and the exact verse I may look that up.

You also did not address my question here:

I'm seeing two statements:
1) Jesus is God.
2) God is invisible.
Assuming both of those statements are true, basic logic we conclude that--
Jesus is invisible.
But this conclusion contradicts your statement here. Is statement #1 or #2 false?
Note: I'm actually trying not to be obstinate here. I've always wondered how Creed-believers can say both statements 1 and 2 without reaching the conclusion that Christ is invisible.

 

[NYCGuy]

I'm seeing two statements:
1) Jesus is God.
2) God is invisible.
Assuming both of those statements are true, basic logic we conclude that--
Jesus is invisible.
But this conclusion contradicts your statement here. Is statement #1 or #2 false?
Note: I'm actually trying not to be obstinate here. I've always wondered how Creed-believers can say both statements 1 and 2 without reaching the conclusion that Christ is invisible.

Jesus, by virtue of His Incarnation, is fully God and fully man. He has a glorified body, after His death, resurrection, and bodily ascension to Heaven. Although God is invisible, the invisible God became visible through this Incarnation, and why Jesus is not invisible.

 

[Rescued One]

Which God do Mormons worship?

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20)

God is the Supreme Being in the universe.

1. 1.
   God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians 4:6; John 10:29).
   1. 2.
      As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40; 20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2;Luke 4:8).
   2. Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 3: God the Eternal Father

3 Nephi 11
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.

16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:

17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

18 And it came to pass that he spake unto Nephi (for Nephi was among the multitude) and he commanded him that he should come forth.

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.

Do Mormons worship one god, two gods or three gods?

 

[Winken]

Again, this does not address my questions.

Where does it talk about the Father/Son/Spirit being one in essence. Please tell me the exact verse I can read this exact thing. If you do not mean this word that you have been using, may you please tell me a more accurate word and the exact verse I may look that up.

You also did not address my question here:

Everything I have sent points out and to the "essence" you are looking for. I also pointed out the "invisible" you have problems with.

Check this out (and also check out Post #19. That post is "right on.")

Essence:

A noun. The intrinsic nature, the indispensable quality of something that determines its existence. It is the very essence of being born again (Spiritually birthed). Synonyms: quintessence, soul, spirit, a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is. The very essence of life is life itself. The very essence of creation is God Himself.

With that, I've got to thank my countrymen and Paul Revere for keeping my head above water.