Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

[supermagdalena]

I believe what I've read in the Bible. When I die, Jesus pays for my sins at the door.

 

[Andrew]

It amazes me how children of God strive to convince and prove to themselves as well as their fellow brothers and sisters that they might just be going to hell.

And the more scriptures and eloquent, witty arguments they can come up with, the more satisfied and happy and wiser they feel.

Something is really wrong here.

 

[kern]

I think you misunderstand the OSNAS viewpoint. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe that you can say for any specific moment in time, "If I die right now I will go to heaven." You *cannot*, however, say "When I die in 50 years I will go to heaven, regardless of what happens between now and then." So it's not about telling people that they might be going to hell but not know it. That's not what OSNAS teaches, as far as I know.

What else would you say about someone who accepts Jesus, but then later murders 10 people, curses Jesus and God, and denies his faith? OSAS?

And your rhetoric doesn't constitute an argument for OSAS, it's just ad hominem thrown in to avoid having to make a real point.

-Chris

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben johnson, Do you have 2 natures or one?

Two. My old nature, which is dead, and my new nature, which is "alive in Christ".

As I "walk in the Spirit", the new nature lives, I do not sin, I CANNOT sin (1Jn3:9)

But if I stumble, and "walk in the flesh", the old nature lives and I sin. Yet the new nature remains, thus I have a WAR within my members between the old and the new natures. (Rom7:14-25) If I sin, my new nature leads me towards repentance, and I am forgiven. (1Jn1:8-9) As I grow in Christ, as I walk more and more in the Spirit, I sin less and less. I learn that "if I live according to the flesh, I must die; but if by the Spirit I am putting to death the deeds of the body, I will live." (Rom8:13) What then? Are we returning to a salvation of works? No! "If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace!" (Rom11:6) But by "walking in the Spirit", I am "abiding in Him", allowing HIM to do the works THROUGH us. (Philp2:12-13, Gal2:20)

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Very good! Now, please read 2Jn1:8-9: "Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who GOES TOO FAR (goes on ahead) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!" Help me understand how these two verses support anything but "salvation is ABIDING in CHRIST, salvation is REJECTABLE"? Will you say "full reward" is only "prizes-in-Heaven, not Heaven itself"? Then you believe some will go to Heaven WHO HAVE NOT GOD??? Or do you say "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED!"? But they WERE abiding in Christ. Unsaved?

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, excellent! Now please read Rom5:8 & 18: "For God demonstrates His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. By ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS came sanctification to PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN-THE-WORLD." Does He love unsaved people? Did He love US before we were saved? Will He still love those who perish? Will ANYTHING separate us from that love?


--------------------------------------------------
Still awaiting an answer to:

Matt7:18-20
1Cor6:9-10
Gal5:19-21
Heb10:26-27
Rom6:1-2
Gal2:17-20 (esp vs 18: "If I rebuild SIN")
2Tim2:12
Matt10:32-33
1Jn1:3,5

Please help me to understand how I can be "in-saved-relationship-with-God", but not in fellowship with Him? How can I be "practicing sinning", just as the unsaved-Gentiles do, but I shall still "dwell in the house of the Lord forever"?

 

[LouisBooth]

I agree with you Kern, even though i dont' support your position, but then again, its dangeriously close to getting salvation by works....

Ben, as you know, I disagree with you on that 2 nature thing. Your old nature is dead and gone, never to return, that is unless Christ didn't seperate you from your sins..but I think he did.

Umm..I believe I have answered those in the past some quite a few times..why do so again?

 

[Ben johnson]

So "saved" is totally conditional?

YES! You may easily dispute VOW, or MissShelby, or even me , but can you dispute PETER? "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain His calling AND ELECTION of you; for as long as you practice these things (see the list---as Jesus said, 'BY THEIR FRUITS YOU WILL KNOW THEM'!), you will never stumble, and in THIS way the EISODOS-GATE-ENTRANCE of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you". This is presented as "mutually exclusive", that it will be provided in no other way. Or do you have an understanding that encompasses those who are "blind and short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN their FORMER PURIFICATION from sins"? (Or do you contend there is some OTHER way to be "purified from sins", APART from salvation? 2Pet1:4-11

...and we should never say "we are saved"

Salvation is VERY conditional. Upon us? NO!!! Upon HIM, IN us! As 1Jn5:12 says, "he who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE! I write this that you ...can KNOW you are saved!"

BUT, you simply cannot get away from what John said---"he who goes too far and DOES NOT ABIDE in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD!" 2:1:8-9

Help me to understand how salvation is something different than "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", which, as such (fellowship), can be forsaken???

 

[LouisBooth]

"Help me to understand how salvation is something different than "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", which, as such (fellowship), can be forsaken??? "

Sure, fellowship doesn't mean being remade, ie a new creation. Paul couldn't stress this enough. He never said the old is back, but he sure did say the old is dead and gone

 

[Ben johnson]

Umm..I believe I have answered those in the past some quite a few times..why do so again?

Hi, Louis! Hawahya?! (HonoLULU Hawahya???)

Oh, there are far more than you-and-I here. (You and "me" here?) Again for THEIR sake...

(he he...)

 

[LouisBooth]

ahh..okay...well again, I'd have to disagree with you and I can state I have refuted your "listed verses" and shown that they fit into OSAS perfectly..I'm doing okay, and yourself, been a few weeks..where ya been hawii...*guessing from the jokes*

 

[Ben johnson]

Actually, Louis, these 9 verses I cited are specifically in response to "yes-you-can-sin-all-you-want-and-STILL-BE-SAVED". The first one uses Jesus' words, in that "a GOOD TREE (saved) CANNOT produce bad fruit"; the 2nd, 3rd 4th 5th and 6th are about how "you CANNOT be PRACTICING sinning and EXPECT to go to Heaven"; 7th & 8th, "you CANNOT deny Christ and EXPECT to go to Heaven"; and the last, boldly proclaims "Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with JESUS". For those who say "you can have SAVED RELATIONSHIP but not be in FELLOWSHIP with Christ". This ties in nicely with the "saved-but-PRACTICING-SIN", in: "If we say we have fellowship with Him but WALK IN THE DARKNESS (committing sin-after-sin-after-sin, unrepentantly), we lie and do not practice the truth. "Do not practice the truth? Can "One who does not practice the truth", be SAVED? (I say, "NO"...)

Now, Louis, if your "OLD NATURE" is GONE FOREVER, then you are, from your salvation-date-forth, SINLESS. Are you? (Not according to 1Jn1:8...)

No, was just teasing about Hawaii. Don't I WISH. In April I wanted to go so badly, I filled the car's tanks FULL, then started from Longbeach. Got a little over half-way, then got scared and turned back. Barely had enough gas to make it back to California...

 

[LouisBooth]

"yes-you-can-sin-all-you-want-and-STILL-BE-SAVED"

and as I say over and over again, that's not the OSAS postion.

"Now, Louis, if your "OLD NATURE" is GONE FOREVER, then you are, from your salvation-date-forth, SINLESS. Are you? (Not according to 1Jn1:8...) "

In terms of consquences of sin and law, yes, even if I lie I am still sinless.

"you CANNOT be PRACTICING sinning and EXPECT to go to Heaven"

Good, we believe that too. Habitual sin is a bad thing, but not incurable, and you don't loose your salvation, but you have right to question if you have it or not.

"Barely had enough gas to make it back to California...
"

Well, its not like Cali is that much different. I'm stuck in texas with 100 degree weather and all the humidity you can hope and pray for..eww... *chuckles*

 

[Ben johnson]

So where are you, Louis? Houston? I've HEARD about that place. If not for the congestion, humidity, heat, and all of the CRIME it would be a GOOD PLACE TO LIVE!

We've been having unseasonably COLD. I've been sleepin' with BLANKETS. My FANS have shut off, they don't usually do that 'til October! (they both have thermostats---I actually ran my air-conditioner, I think it was 3 years ago, 108 in the shade...)

and as I say over and over again, that's not the OSAS postion.

That may not be YOUR "OSAS" position, but it is SOME peoples'. "Carnality" assumes that salvation is "relationship-apart-from-fellowship", and NO amount of sins can send you to Hell.

(TECHNICALLY no amount of sins CAN send you to Hell, 'cause salvation is HEART, not SIN; but the HEART that DOES sins continuously and unrepentantly, no WAY that heart is saved...)

Good, we believe that too. Habitual sin is a bad thing, but not incurable, and you don't loose your salvation, but you have right to question if you have it or not.

You know, I think we differ so slightly, that I'm not sure I really understand the difference. It seems "black-and-white" to me, that one who is SAVED, has Jesus in-his-heart. How then can that one sin repeatedly? And when I read Paul's warnings, that "he who PRACTICES these sins will NOT go to Heaven", it reflects perfectly what Jesus said, "You will KNOW them by their FRUITS. No good tree can produce bad, no bad tree good".

I guess I see it as rather like being "pregnant". Either you ARE, or you are NOT. Either you ARE Christian, or NOT.

(I KNOW I'm a guy, but if Arnold can be pregnant, in the movie, "Junior"...)

 

[Andrew]

What else would you say about someone who accepts Jesus, but then later murders 10 people, curses Jesus and God, and denies his faith? OSAS?

And your rhetoric doesn't constitute an argument for OSAS, it's just ad hominem thrown in to avoid having to make a real point.
------------------------------
Likewise for your hypothetical examples.

 

[Julie]

Ben johnson, Do you have 2 natures or one?
Two. My old nature, which is dead, and my new nature, which is "alive in Christ".

Sad to say, very few Christians understand the doctrine of the two natures as it is taught in the Word of God. This Fact has caused much confusion and disappointment among God's children. Certainly if believers understand the "old man as opposed to the new, there would be much less backsliding than is in evidence today.

A lost person has only the old nature through physical birth. The moment a person is saved, he gains a new nature (in addition to the old) by spiritual birth (John 3:6, 7; II Pet. 1:4).

It is a mistake to think that the old nature can be eradicated (i.e. cease to exist). There will always be a continual conflict between the old and new natures.

There are different names for the old and new natures In the Bible.

The New Nature is called:
The Spirit
The inward man
The new man

The Old Nature is called:
The flesh
The outward man
The old man

To fully understand the doctrine of the two-natures we must know the difference between:

STANDING AND STATE.
Great confusion is caused when these two things (standing and state) are combined into ONE UNIT
(I.e. Mixing salvation & service)

Salvation = is a FREE GIFT WITHOUT WORKS; (Eph. 2:8, 9)

Service = Deals with REWARDS, i.e. works; (I Cor. 3:11 -15)
***********************************************
WHAT DID PAUL MEAN WHEN HE SAID, "I DIE DAILY"??


Taken from-THE TWO NATURES by Oliver B. Green, Pub. by The Gospel Hour, Inc.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Good post julie...I have been trying to explain that!
I agree!

 

[VOW]

To Andrew:

What else would you say about someone who accepts Jesus, but then later murders 10 people, curses Jesus and God, and denies his faith? OSAS?

I say, it is not our place to judge him, but that of God. Even Paul said it was not his place to judge someone's salvation.

Suppose when that guy was a young kid, he went to church with his Gramma, and when a revival came to town, he was saved. He lived a good life, took care of Gramma, went to church with her. But Gramma died, he dropped out of school, found a bunch of bad friends, and started doing all the wrong things.

By the OSAS theory, he was never saved to begin with. Are you going to actually sit there and SAY that everything he felt, everything he experienced in that revival with his Gramma was BOGUS? How CAN you make such an assumption? How can you JUDGE what he actually felt at the time?

If a preacher comes to visit him in prison and talks to him about Jesus, suppose the minister tells him about salvation. And the man tells him that he WAS saved, when he was a boy living with Gramma. According to OSAS, the preacher will tell him, "Boy, you weren't REALLY saved then!"

Don't be surprised if the man yells at the preacher and kicks him out of the jail block. His GRAMMA told him he was saved! He lived a GOOD CHRISTIAN life when he was with Gramma! Gramma loved him, and told him Jesus loved him too. Now that preacher is saying GRAMMA LIED? JESUS LIED?

Where is the compassion in that?

How much better if the minister would say, "Yes, Son, you were saved. But you've fallen away from Jesus, haven't you? Wouldn't you like to feel that pure heart again? Let's pray together and ask God to forgive your sins, and help you back on the road to righteousness."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Originally posted by Andrew
What else would you say about someone who accepts Jesus, but then later murders 10 people, curses Jesus and God, and denies his faith? OSAS?

And your rhetoric doesn't constitute an argument for OSAS, it's just ad hominem thrown in to avoid having to make a real point.
------------------------------
Likewise for your hypothetical examples.

Andrew...do you really think that someone who accepts the Lordd Jesus and "puts away" the "old man" and becomes a "new man" will murder someone? Is it possible that with your salvation at this time, you could murder someone?
After the circumsion made without hands by GOD, you are "born again" Christ is within you. Could anyone here that has accpeted the Lord deny him...right now? Please tell me what it would take to deny the Lord now that you are saved and have full knowledge of who Christ is and what HE represented~

GEL

 

[VOW]

To GEL:

Andrew...do you really think that someone who accepts the Lordd Jesus and "puts away" the "old man" and becomes a "new man" will murder someone? Is it possible that with your salvation at this time, you could murder someone?

It's not our place to judge another's salvation. Until you have the ability to crawl into another person's heart and feel what he or she feels upon believing in the Sacrifice of Christ, you cannot say whether or not he or she was saved. Like my example above: when the little boy lived with his Gramma, he FELT saved. When she died, he was in adolescence, and very vulnerable to the temptations of Satan. (be GRATEFUL your kids aren't in those teen years yet, GEL. Incredible alien space pod people take over your loving children!)

Because a person falls to the temptation of Satan doesn't mean they were not SAVED before. You are condemning what they experienced in the first place, and by doing so may harden their hearts permanently against God. And that would be TRAGIC!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[WayneH]

Hey Gel....

A few things - first let ME say - I have a 16 year old and a 13 year old - both blue eyed Blonds.. and they have been the most wonderful kids.... I know you will raise your kids up in the Lord and they will be great kids.. like Mom...

Wanted to share something with You GEL... I am taking a Bible Study - using a book titled "Changed into His Image and going thru the 9th Chapter - it brought up these verses.. Very Interesting... Ephesians 1:13 and 14 as well as Ephesians 4:30... these went along with 2 Cor. 5:5

Take care - kiss the youngens...

God Bless... and Hey Gel... Thanks - its taking ME some time - but I will learn..

 

[supermagdalena]

No one answered me. Are you saying that every time I sin, my salvation is in jeopardy? Or not?