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Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Miss Shelby, May 8, 2002.

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  1. tericl2

    tericl2 A Work in Progress

    AMEN!! :)
  2. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    This verse has been dissected pretty much word by word, and letter by letter, to this point.

    However it just dawned on me the what Ben is ignoring, is the fact that the falling away is caused by "sin".

    Falling away it could be said is a sin in itself, however, that is not the sin in veiw here.

    Sin causes death, forgiveness of sin requires the "shedding of blood"

    Since, the "Sins" of this one individual, where covered by the shed blood of Jesus, which is what this verse is teaching.

    The THEORY of OSNAS presumes to teach the result of this sin unto death, alienates this person from the faithfulness of God, and in reality denies the power of God to preserve his own from the effects of SIN, in spite of themselves. Which is a blasphameous claim, a denial of the power of the BLOOD that has bought him.

    So if it possible that person could lose his "SALVATION".

    It is therefore impossible to bring this individual back to repentance and saving faith in Jesus, since this person has been their before. And contray to the Word of God, the BLOOD of the Lamb of God did not cover this future SIN which caused him to fall away.

    And though he seek forgiveness "carefully with tears" it would be impossible to receive forgiveness for the "sin" which caused him to "fall away" as he would have to cover that "sin" with BLOOD.

    The question then is, If any person who has been made a partaker, and has tasted of the heavenly gift, if he should fall away, what blood sacrifuce can he bring to GOD which would be acceptable for forgivennes of the "SIN", which caused him to "fall away"

    In the light of the total some of Gods word, the answer is NONE, because, "NO OTHER BLOOD CAN TAKE AWAY SIN"

    Ben you need to stand back and consider Heb 6 in the light of the WHOLE WORD of GOD.

    Anyone who claims to be a child of God, has received the Spirit of truth, who leads into the truth, it is necessary that we not put our faith in man, but in God.

    Heb 10
    39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    We have a high priest who ministers in the true tabernacle not made with human hands, who has entered in by the shedding of his own blood, and who has made ONE sacrfice "once and for ever", and now sitteth at the right hand of majesty;

    HEB 7
    25 SIZE=4]Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them .[/SIZE]

    God blesses those that honor his word.

  3. Erwin

    Erwin Well-Known Member

    I am moving this to the new Soteriology forum since this is more relevant there. :)
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    According to the Greek, supported by all of the translators, the REASON it is "adunatos", is because of their UNBELIEF.

    WHILE THEY ARE FALLING! If they fell because of "free will", then they "will not return to repentance WHILE they are free-will-falling". The meaning of the verse is crystal clear---not to just Ben johnson, but to the translators of the King James, of the NIV, of the NASV, and verifiable from the Greek.

    SEEING AS, SINCE, BECAUSE, WHILE they crucify Christ to themselves anew and put Him to open shame...

    But it is not crystal clear to those who cling to "OSAS"...
    "For God showed His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". He loved us before we were Christian, while we were unsaved. Is it such a stretch to imagine that He will still love us, though we disbelieve and perish???

    "I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. So then as through one transgresion there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    That is not "what Ben is ignoring", it is PRECISELY what ben has been SAYING ALL ALONG!

    "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ...lest any of you be hardened by the decietfulness of SIN!"
    ...but FIRST, it requires repentance! Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins!
    Sounds like a good idea to me. How about: "You who are seeking to return to justification-by-law, you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace!"? Or, maybe: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."? Maybe I should read, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things you will never stumble, and in this way the ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN WILL BE ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED YOU!"? Or, coult it be: "My brethren, if any among you wanders from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."?

    Did you mean any of THAT rest-of-the-Bible???

    ALL RIGHT, your turn. Tell me which part of the Bible I should read, that I may clearly understand "predestined-election"?

    I'm being sincere here...
    10:22 "Let us draw near with a sincere (true) heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us HOLD FAST the confession of our hope WITHOUT WAVERING, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together... For if we continue sinning willfuly after receiving the knowedge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins but a certain terrifying expectation of a judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer ppunishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regaded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace??? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay'. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people. It is a TERRIFYING THING to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becomin sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.

    Therefore do not throw away your confidence...

    Therefore do not throw away your confidence...
    Therefore do not throw away your confidence...

    ...which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise...


    For yet a little while He who is coming will come, and will not delay; But My righteous one shall live by faith; and if he shrinks back My soul has no pleasure in him (Hab2:3) But we are not of shrinking back to destruction, but of those who have faith to preserving the soul."

    How, in the world, can there be "predestined-election" in this? Paul (if he wrote Heb) challenges us to "NOT THROW IT AWAY", encouraging us as "those who have faith to not shrink back".

    With all respect, carefully asked, in absolute brotherly love, do you all actually read the context around the "proof-Scriptures" you offer?

    Heb7:25: "Hence, also, He is able to save forever (completely) those who draw near to God (Jms4:8) THROUGH JESUS, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Question: does He save them here, in spite of themselves? Or does He save those who draw near to Him???)

    I do believe, that "we-who-are-OSNAS", honor His word. Unless, we can be shown the "error of our way", that "Predestined-Election", or "relationship-without-fellowship" or "mere-head-belief-without-changed-hearts" or "He-will-NEVER-let-you-leave", that any of those exist in Scripture...
  6. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member


    Hebrews the letter to church at Jerusalem is grounded in the work of the Levitical priesthood, an understanding of the book of Leviticus is essential for properly interpreting Hebrews, Isreal's sin had continually interrupted God's fellowship with His chosen covenant people Israel. Therefore, He graciously and sovereignly established a system of sacrifces that symbolically represented the inner repentance of sinners and His divime forgiveness,

    This epistle is a study in contrast, between the impefect and incomplete provisions of the Old Coveneant, given under Moses, and the infinetly better provisions of the New Covenant offered by the perfect High Priest, the Lamb of God, His only Son and the Messiah, Jesus Chrst.

    Included in the better provisions are; a better hope, testament, promise, sacrifice, substance , country and resurrection. Those who belong to the New Covenant dwell in a a completely new, are citizens of a heavenly kingdom, they worship a heavenly Saviour , have a heavenly calling, receive a heavenly gift, they worship a heavenly Saviour, look for a heavenly city whos maker and builder is God, and have their names written in heaven.

    One of the key themes of Hebrewss is direct access to the throne of grace before God, which is that ALTAR mentioned in Leveitus chap 17 verse 11, and therefore a child of God may approach the throne of God boldly; this is the primary teaching; that every believer follows Jesus the Saviour into the very presence of God, and He Jesus is the advocate for them if they sin; because the law under the old covenant could never take away sin,

    Hebrews can be summarized as follows: Beleivers in Jesus Christ as God's pefect sacrfice for sin, have the perfect High-Priest through whose ministry everything is new and better than under the old covenant law.

    I think you might be beating KC's dead horse, because I doubt you or anyone else has ever or will ever meet anyone that can say with assurance I was saved, I lost my salvation and I gained it again.

    A more perfect example of the power salvation has by grace through faith is given in "terics" testimony, were he was saved of God early in his life, fell out of fellowship with God through sin in his life, and then through the loving nurtureing and calling of God whereby he goes out to seek his lost sheep, returned him back to His flock; its all of GOD's doing.

    Rest in these words;

    Jhn 10
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    This is the assurance, that passes all understanding.

    Blessings as you keep seeking him in his word.

  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Heb12:2 "Keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, the archegos and teleiotes of faith." UH-oh! He's goin' to the GREEK again! ;)

    Archegos: 1.the chief leader, prince
    a.of Christ
    2.one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
    3.the author

    Teleiotes: 1.a perfector
    2.one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

    The question is, did the writer-of-Hebrews, mean that Jesus "UNILATERALLY AUTHORS our faith? We see from the Greek, that it very well presents "author" in terms of "leader". And "perfector" can be understood "as by example".

    You quoted from Hebrews 10 in support of OSAS; I simply read the context, and refuted, I believe very well, the "OSAS" position. You promptly "back-flipped" and asserted: "You must understand Leviticus to understand Hebrews".

    Do you think, "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE", does not apply to EVERY Christian? Do you not find, "...who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and rearded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace..."---do you not find that identical to: "seeing/because/since they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him to open shame (contempt)"? Can we dismiss the ENTIRE BOOK OF HEBREWS as NOT APPLYING TO US TODAY???

    Which makes me wonder---is there a "device" that allows each and every OSNAS passage, to be "discounted" or "ignored"? If a certain passage has advice specific for "Christian-Jews", does not that advice also apply to OTHER Christians? We-who-are-ADOPTED-JEWISH-Christians?

    Is there more than one Gospel?

    If we are to dismiss Hebrews in its entirity, fine. Can we deal with all of the OTHER Scriptures, and not "side-step" or "dance-away-from" them?

    I "understand" John10:28 thusly: "Pluck" is "harpazo", "seize-or-remove-forcibly" (the exact same word used for "rapture" in 1Thess4). The verse says "no ONE can remove YOU FORCIBLY. Does this invalidate the premise that you can be deceived by sin, and fall away willingly? It does not.

    Can "OSAS" proponents deal with the verses WE ("OSNAS" proponents) have submitted, similarly?
  8. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member



    Being deceived isn't necessary a sin initself, deception will lead to sin, for sure

    Jesus warns his disciples "Let no Man decieve you"


    "Sin is a breaking of the law" (1Jhon 3;4)

    I enlarged your key word on the above quote;

    Mt 24
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you .

    Why, can't the elect be decieved, because;

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, , they shall deceive the very elect if it were possible.

    If it were possible , means it is impossible

    1 John 3
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1 John 5
    18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not ; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    Now pay close attention cause, I am going to give you some scriptires to ponder;

    Rom 5
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law . 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    (Notice here 1 Tim 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.")

    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    As I stated before, those that have been born of God are no longer under the law of "sin and death" but under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and is this is true, the the law and "sin and death" has no more power to cause death, and the sins of these are not imputed (or counted against them) because their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.

    Rom 4
    15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    Verse 14 above, Adam did eat, in willful disobedience to Gods commandement, and the result was death entering into the world. again,
    Notice verse 16 above, "many offence unto justifcation"; this speaks of ALL their sins, for the rest of their lives they might commit.

    If you really believe what you want to teach, is true, then you will never see the true teaching of this GREAT TRUTH, God not only choses whom he will save, but he also, gives them everything necessary to make it a reality and then keeps them from the the judgement of the laws and ordinances;

    Col 2
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses ;
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ;

    Phil 2
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Put your faith in Him who is able to guide you into all truth.

    This His exhortation to us.


  9. Julie


    It's apparent to anyone
    that when two things are in complete
    contradiction to each other that they are NOT the same and one is in error . Thats not just judgement but common sense.

    Galatians 6:7
    Be not deceived;

    Luke 21:8
    And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived:

    Matthew 24:4
    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    Mark 13:5
    And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

    1 Corinthians 3:18
    Let no man deceive himself.

    Ephesians 5:6
    Let no man deceive you with vain words:

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    Let no man deceive you by any means:

    2 Timothy 3:13
    But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    1 John 3:7
    Little children, let no man deceive you:
  10. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    To Julie:

    But I could use the same argument against your beliefs. There is AMPLE Scriptural support for OSNAS! How do you accommodate both sides, when BOTH have Scriptural support? YOUR common sense tells you that YOU have the correct interpretation. My common sense tells me *I* do.

    I posted two Scriptural references that pointed to OSNAS, and I never got what I consider to be a satisfactory answer to one of them; the second was completely ignored.

    Where is the "common sense" in that?

  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    I agree. BUt there are those who argue, "It's only a HYPOTHETICAL, it can't REALLY HAPPEN. Just as Rev3:5 doesn't really mean your name can be BLOTTED. It's only a HYPOTHETICAL/RHETORICAL..."

    1Tim4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."The "elect" absolutely CAN be deceived and fall away...
    "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He appeared to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; and in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:4-5 And yet, in chapter 1 it says (8-9) "If we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Which is it---do Christians sin, or not? The answer to both, is "yes". "No one who abides in Him sins". But Christians absolutely sin. It becomes painfully obvious that it absolutely is possible to NOT-ABIDE-IN-HIM. Thus, sin itself is the basis for our "falling-from-salvation". Paul explains this in Rom7 and 8. If we "walk in the flesh", the "old-nature" lives and we sin. We are NOT abiding in Christ. Have we forsaken salvation? Our next action determines that answer. If we continue sinning willfully, we are LOST. But if we REPENT and RETURN to ABIDING in HIM, we are SAVED. Scripture is clear to me...
    Why are our sins "covered by the blood of Jesus"? Is it not by repentance? Are we not forgiven when we receive Him as Lord and Savior? If the WHOLE THING is abiding in Him, then if we CEASE from "abiding", then are we still covered by His blood? (Which is also to say, if we GRIEVE the Holy Spirit, will the seal REMAIN?)
    So then, Paul was WRONG? That in the latter days some will NOT FALL FROM THE FAITH? Or is this just a weeding-out of those who THOUGHT they were saved but NEVER-REALLY-WERE? They were DECEIVED about BEING SAVED???

    You say "God chooses whom He will save". Jesus said "I will call (HELKUO-DRAG0 all men PAS ANTHROPOS THE WORLD to Myself". You say "God saves people in SPITE of themselves", John said "as many as RECEIVED HIM to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name".
    The question remains, what is the mechanism by which He has forgiven us, and made us alive in Him, and blotted out the "CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" (Rom6:23!), what is the WAY that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to work according to His good purpose"?

    What is the MECHANISM? Does God save UNILATERALLY? In SPITE OF US? Or does God save those who RECEIVE HIM? Who CALL ON HIS NAME? Do we have free will or not? Does the Bible say?
    I do. Absolutely. As Jude said, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy..." He is ABLE---but does He do it without our will? Jude ALSO said, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life". Which did Jude believe---divine election, or free will?

    If you really believe what you want to teach...
    It's really a matter of believing Scripture, isn't it? If salvation is "abiding in Christ", if we are saved by God's grace through our faith, if He honors our own free will, then those who do NOT believe, risk eternity. Don't they?
  12. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    Ben, I think you are the one who argues against, this

    You just blew a hole in your argument; If you really believe your name cannot be BLOTTED out, then that means you didn't lose your salvation.

    Read the verse you reference above Rev 3:5, in the lite of;

    1 Jhn 5
    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    You take verses isolate them, to use them to try and prove your point;

    I am wondering If you spend all your time trying to make sense of this position,

    Instead of trying to prove fruitless points; we ought to ;

    Col 4
    "5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.

    Keeping on.

  13. VOW

    VOW Moderator

  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Interesting to note that the Earliest Baptist Churches believed that Christians could fall away from salvation. "

    Good think that I'm not an earliest baptist church huh? ;)
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Hi, Richard. Yes I believe one's name CAN be "blotted from the book". Logically ( :eek: ), if one cannot enter Heaven save for their name being IN the book, then what of children? They MUST begin IN the book, for children who die young go to Heaven (Matt19:14). So EVERYONE is at one time "IN the Book", and those on the wrong path MUST have been "blotted"...
    I isolate? Take outta context? Often it is merely by READING the context that I (rather, SCRIPTURE) totally refutes the "OSAS" view. Did you see the post on Heb10:39? And my response???
    The question remains---we all agree that "salvation is belief in Jesus", the question remains, can a person, later, disbelieve?

    The Bible says YES. Many times...
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "READING the context that I (rather, SCRIPTURE) totally refutes the "OSAS" view. Did you see the post on Heb10:39? And my response??? "

    YOu know I disagree with that statement. Heb 10:39...did you read the passage in John about sheep ONLY following the masters voice? I also think you fail to read the conclusion drawn from that passage and the reason for it. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and ceratin of what we do not see. What part of SURE OF don't ya understand here ;)
  17. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member



  18. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    Interesting to note, Louis, that Baptist teachings on something so volatile have changed! The most heated discussions here are typically between Baptists and those who do NOT believe in OSAS.

    OSAS folks are trumpeting Scripture, yet this INTERPRETATION of Scripture is relatively "new."

    Like I said, interesting.

    Peace be with you,
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "OSAS folks are trumpeting Scripture, yet this INTERPRETATION of Scripture is relatively "new."

    Like I said, interesting. "

    I think my position is a lot older then "earilest baptist churches" *chuckles* Not that interesting at all, not anymore so then the varity of catholic shoot offs that claim to be the true catholics ;)
  20. calvinist

    calvinist Daniel in the Lion's Den

    Dear All,

    I'm sorry but saying that everyone's name is in the book is simply not biblical. Let's be reasonable and refer to scripture.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed with every spirtual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." -Ephesians 1:3-4

    So if He has presdestined us, then all our sins have been forgiven. So how in the world can we lose our salvation on our part? We don't gain our salvation by our part, and we certainly don't lose our salvation by our part. Don't go out and live like God is watching every move you make so He can kick you out of His kingdom. Rejoice in the GRACE that is CHRIST JESUS!
    Deligting in God's Unconditional Election and Predestination,
    "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." -John Piper
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