Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

[Julie]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"In the OSAS way of thinking, you don't make accommodations for that stupidity. "

That's right because people that find God won't turn away. Period. It just won't happen after you have know what its like without him.

Louis (my hero)

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
BTW, in Heb6, the Greek for "impossible" means rather, "without power, weak".

Thus, "In the case of those who WERE true believers, and then fall away, it is without power to restore them to repentance, as they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him in contempt."

The REASON they cannot be "restored to repentance/salvation", is the same REASON that they fell (are falling) away! If that REASON ceases, then so ceases their apostacy!

You need to look at the Strong's again. There are two definitions. The second one being "unable to be done, impossible", which suits the grammatical context of the verse much better than "powerless". Not to mention that the Greek "adunatos" is translated most often (6 to be exact) as impossible and only once as weak. In addition to the 6 times translated as impossible it is also translated once as "could not do" and once as "not possible".

Ignoring the second definition and the fact that it is translated most consistently as "impossible" is simply a smokescreen.

originally posted by VOW
And after they come crashing back to earth, they can pick themselves up, wash themselves off from the filth of the world, and reconcile themselves to God.

This was my whole point when I began my first post. Regardless of whether I believe a person can lose or reject their salvation, Hebrews 6 plainly states that if you do (once you do, when you do) you CANNOT (it is impossible to) be brought back to repentance. There is no gray area in that statement. So, if as you claim, I CAN lose (reject) my salvation...IF I do that then I can never come back to it. Every major translation says exactly the same thing. It is impossible!

For everyones info, I do believe in OSAS. I am merely making this argument from Hebrews 6 to show the error in OSNAS teaching that you can leave and come back repeatedly. According to this verse it would be a one shot deal. You get and then give it up you never get it back.

 

[tericl2]

Lionheart,

Thanks for the encouragement!

God Bless you!!

 

[VOW]

To Tericl:

show the error in OSNAS teaching

The error IN YOUR INTERPRETATION of OSNAS teaching, you mean.

There are faiths (and I belong to one of them) who teach OSNAS. It's fine and dandy to debate them on an intellectual level here in the Forum, but you CANNOT say one or the other belief is in error.

Dat's da rules!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by VOW
To Tericl:



The error IN YOUR INTERPRETATION of OSNAS teaching, you mean.

There are faiths (and I belong to one of them) who teach OSNAS. It's fine and dandy to debate them on an intellectual level here in the Forum, but you CANNOT say one or the other belief is in error.

Dat's da rules!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

If you are going to quote me please do so in the context of what I write. I said, "..the error of OSNAS teaching that if you lose it you get it back." Maybe we should have a rule about mis-quotes and/or quoting out of context??

Are we going to quibble over semantics? Doesn't it seem to be a logical deduction that if I disagree I would think there is an error? Isn't that what most posts on here are pointing out? A perceived error?

BTW, I said I didn't care if you (you in general) were OSAS or OSNAS. But IF you believe you can regain salvation after losing (rejecting) it, that is against what is clearly stated in Hebrews. What does impossible mean to you?

If I am banned or anything of the sort for defending what the Word says (very clearly I might add) then so be it. I try not to offend anyone but in this case the scripture is very clear.

 

[supermagdalena]

Texas interupption time.

Y'ALL! Peace! Love! Happiness! We're all Christians here. God doesn't want us to fight. This stuff makes me sad Cool off, my peeps. Love y'all, be happy.

God Bless.

 

[VOW]

To Tericl:

But IF you believe you can regain salvation after losing (rejecting) it, that is against what is clearly stated in Hebrews.

It is my understanding that the only UNFORGIVEABLE sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. All others, including those in Paul's list in Galatians, ARE forgiveable.

However, if you do not repent of them, you'll lose the Kingdom of Heaven.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Miss Shelby]

VOW:
It is my understanding that the only UNFORGIVEABLE sin is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. All others, including those in Paul's list in Galatians, ARE forgiveable.

ter:

This was my whole point when I began my first post. Regardless of whether I believe a person can lose or reject their salvation, Hebrews 6 plainly states that if you do (once you do, when you do) you CANNOT (it is impossible to) be brought back to repentance.

So if a person said "I don't believe Jesus is Savior."
but later repented of that, would he not be forgiven?

Isn't all sin a denial of God? What is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Michelle

 

[tericl2]

So if a person said "I don't believe Jesus is Savior."
but later repented of that, would he not be forgiven?

See the whole of Hebrews 6:4-6. If you have tasted of the things of God and then you fall away.

"....but later repented of that.." This is exactly what i am talking about. According to Heb 6 it would be impossible for someone to be brought back to repentance.

So, ergo, if you supposedly "reject" or "turn away" from your salvation once you have had it, then you are done. But, if you do get "re-saved", there are only two possibilities left. One, you were never saved to begin with or 2, you never lost it to begin with.

I posted earlier a little bit of my own experience as the proof for me, from my own life, that I cannot and will not ever lose my salvation.

 

[VOW]

To Miss Shelby:

So if a person said "I don't believe Jesus is Savior." but later repented of that, would he not be forgiven?

I direct you to Luke 12:10

Everyone who speaks a word against the Sonof Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I think even that has to be taken into context. If a grieving parent who has lost a child to a brutal death screams and curses God, the Almighty Father would certainly understand the source of the curse. After all, He lost a Son to a brutal death, too.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[VOW]

To Tericl:

So, ergo, if you supposedly "reject" or "turn away" from your salvation once you have had it, then you are done. But, if you do get "re-saved", there are only two possibilities left. One, you were never saved to begin with or 2, you never lost it to begin with.

What about Simon Peter? The Father gave him the wisdom to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Even if you don't believe the Catholic teaching, that's still a pretty powerful symbol. Peter may have been granted the wisdom from the Father, but he definitely acknowledged Jesus as the Christ.

Then Peter denies Jesus three times.

After Jesus's Resurrection, Peter is the first disciple to see Jesus. And Jesus doesn't DEMAND the return of those keys.

Something to think about.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[supermagdalena]

Proof that no one listens to Texans.

 

[Ben johnson]

Everyone seems to be interested in Hebrews 6:4-6. Does it mean "if you fall you can NEVER COME BACK"? Or is it simply a statment that "falling is your OWN CHOICE"?

I just posted on another thread, and since most won't click a link, I'll just copy it here (with all of your permissions...) On the other thread was the question, "Why do you go to the Greek? Do you know more than those who TRANSLATED the Bible"?

_______________________________________________________________________
Do you really think we cannot gain more understanding from the Greek? The translaters, throughout time, were Human. And absolutely capable of mistakes. Maybe not actual mistakes, but differences in opinion. Take the NIV and KING JAMES translation of 1Cor12. The Greek plainly uses the word "me" (pronounced "may"), which is a NEGATIVE RHETORICAL (can ONLY be answered "NO"); but both NIV and KJV get it wrong---they simply translate, "are all apostles? Are all prophets? Do all speak with other tongues?" NASV comes far closer to the Greek intent with, "All are NOT prophets, are they? All are NOT apostles, are they? All do NOT speak with other tongues, do they?" Sadly, this exact "literary device" is missed in all three translations in James 2:14: "That faith can NOT save him, CAN it?" The "me dunamai" is-not-able-to is once again a negative question.

"The kind of faith that produces no works can NOT save you, CAN it!"

When we read James 5:19-20, without the Greek there is no response to the person who claims, "OH that's just death-of-BODY, not SPIRIT!" But it clearly uses the word, "psyche/psuche", (which James' contemporary John clearly uses for "immortal soul" in Rev20:4), and it uses "thanatos" which according to the Greek dictionary I use says "physical-with-implication-of-Hell". Contrast this with James2:26, where "spirit" is "pneuma" (ghost) and "death" is "nekros" (body-death).

(Which leaves the "OSAS" person with only two options---either to declare that "Brethren if any of YOU" was addressed to NON-CHRISTIANS [?!], or the entire letter can be discounted via dispensationism...)

Without the Greek, how would we know what was really written in Heb6:4-6? In KJV and NIV, the word "IMPOSSIBLE" appears in verse 4, but it appears in verse 6 in NAS! And we can LOOK UP the word "IMPOSSIBLE", which is "ADUNATOS"--- 1.without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled 2.unable to be done, impossible . We can clearly see that the stronger meaning is "strengthless, weak"; the "impossible" is the LEAST meaning. Whether or not it is "without strength" or "impossible", the important issue is the reason that restoring repentance is "adunatos".

We furthermore see that "SINCE" does NOT appear in KJV or NIV (but does in NASV); likewise, KJV uses "seeing", NIV uses "because". Which word is in the Greek---SINCE, SEEING, or BECAUSE? Answer is, NONE OF THEM! But all three "interpretations-by-the-translators" really say the same thing as I was contending---that the reason it is "adunatos", is "seeing, since, because of their crucifying-Christ-over-and-over-and-regarding-Him-with-contempt".

In NASV, the word, "SINCE", carries this footnote: while.

"It is adunatos to restore them to repentance, WHILE they are crucifying CHrist to themselves anew, and put Him to open shame."

So, we see, that Ben johnson is NOT "smarter than the learned-translators", but the assertions Mr. Ben made, are perfectly supported BY the translators...

 

[Julie]

VOW-

After Jesus's Resurrection, Peter is the first disciple to see Jesus. And Jesus doesn't DEMAND the return of those keys.

Jesus Christ-

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death .

VOW-

There are faiths (and I belong to one of them) who teach OSNAS. It's fine and dandy to debate them on an intellectual level here in the Forum, but you CANNOT say one or the other belief is in error.

Its obvious that one of them is in error and one is not.

Julie


Psalm 37
28 For the LORD loveth judgment , and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever : but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[VOW]

To Julie:

Its obvious that one of them is in error and one is not.

That is NOT for you to say.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[VOW]

To Julie:

The quote in Revelation is about the keys to Hell, it makes no reference to the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, which Jesus gave to Peter.



Peace,
~VOW

 

[Julie]

That is very good Vow, I didn't think you would see that.
So there must be a difference in the Keys, as there is also a difference between The Kingdom of Heaven vs. the Kingdom of God.

quote:
Its obvious that one of them is in error and one is not.

That is NOT for you to say.

Sorry I already did.
Julie

 

[VOW]

To Julie:

Sorry I already did.

For your personal belief system, Julie, you may say whatever you wish. However, according to the Rules of the Forum, it is not up to you to make that judgment.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[tericl2]

originally posted by Ben johnson
Without the Greek, how would we know what was really written in Heb6:4-6? In KJV and NIV, the word "IMPOSSIBLE" appears in verse 4, but it appears in verse 6 in NAS! And we can LOOK UP the word "IMPOSSIBLE", which is "ADUNATOS"--- 1.without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled 2.unable to be done, impossible . We can clearly see that the stronger meaning is "strengthless, weak"; the "impossible" is the LEAST meaning. Whether or not it is "without strength" or "impossible", the important issue is the reason that restoring repentance is "adunatos".

This is a reply I posted earlier to this theory on the translation of "adunatos". I copied here since some "won't click a link" as it was put in an earlier post.

originally posted by tericl2 You need to look at the Strong's again. There are two definitions. The second one being "unable to be done, impossible", which suits the grammatical context of the verse much better than "powerless". Not to mention that the Greek "adunatos" is translated most often (6 to be exact) as impossible and only once as weak. In addition to the 6 times translated as impossible it is also translated once as "could not do" and once as "not possible".

Ignoring the second definition and the fact that it is translated most consistently as "impossible" is simply a smokescreen.

And regardless of that, if you are "powerless" to come back to repentance, it would still be impossible.

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by tericl2
Lionheart,

Thanks for the encouragement!

God Bless you!!

teric,


Thanks for your testimony, I myself was rebellious and not interested in the things of God, as a youngster, and although I was not raised in a christian household, I cursed and swore at God, and my parents, while growing up.

But God in his infinite mercy saved me, at the age of 33 years.

And my fellowship with him has been wonderfull,not to mention the love he has given me for my parents (who are both in their nineties).

This reminded me of Gods faithfullness, that inspite of ourselves, because he has sworn by his own name sake he will make it come to pass.

This is the real mystery, that a Holy God would want fellowship with a reprobate, defiled, ungodly sinner.

Our security is not based on our performance, whats amazing is that, "while we were yet sinners Christ die for us."

Only those who have been made partakers of the real truth behind this revelation, have received the Holy Spirit promised as the earnest deposit of our inheritance, and its only by His leading are we able to understanding the full measure of the significance of HIS FREE gift we have in Christ.




Thanks again, and keep standing up for the truth.


Richard.