Biblical, Enclosed Flat Earth and Firmament

Do you think enclosed flat earth is possible from scripture, or think it's IMPOSSIBLE?

  • Possible

  • IMPOSSIBLE


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Zoii

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As I said in the OP, I'm on the fence but defending flat earth for now because I defended the globe for nearly 50 years. I'm not a troll and I don't know how to hack. This is a very uncomfortable topic for 99% of the people I present it to. We're all in love with the globe. I let it go and it's liberating. I'm here to discuss facts and scripture proving we're NOT on a flying spinning ball. I've heard all your arguments before I came here and they don't convince me.

Do me a favor in the next week or next weekend. Spend a day or a few hours searching for proof and confirmation of flat earth and let the science, math and the globe go temporarily. Search for flat earth proof for a bit and if you still feel the same way at least you will get answers to most of your questions. Open the the 200 proofs video, copy the url and open a new tab. Watch little bits at a time for a few days. 200 flat earth proofs. I think you'll find that there are MORE essential things NASA and science can't explain. Exactly how does the flat earth fail in your studies?
So the numerous experiences of astronauts were delusions, the images and tracking of satellites are conspiracies...... Ok enough. I just shake my head how these types of issues arise with christian cohorts making Christianity look like a bunch of kooks.
 
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The Times

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That does not prove a globe. You're not the first one debatiing flat earth to come up with that.

It doesn't? Oh Really!
Then I have established from your response that your position is not based on an evidentiary discourse, but one based on faith, in the dismissing of evidence provided to you.

You cannot have electromagnetic patterns that are directional, without a spin and a shape that produces them. I am an Engineer, so I would like to ask you what is your qualifications?
 
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patrick jane

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It doesn't? Oh Really!
Then I have established from your response that your position is not based on an evidentiary discourse, but one based on faith, in the dismissing of evidence provided to you.

You cannot have electromagnetic patterns that are directional, without a spin and a shape that produces them. I am an Engineer, so I would like to ask you what is your qualifications?
I'm not good with math. Tell me what the thing does, what it's called and a basic explanation of how it works. I'm just saying that if you found proof of the globe in your pictures and calculations then somebody before you did too, and the debate would be over for the whole world. If you don't watch ANY of the 200 proofs for flat earth video, we'll be here all night. I'm getting overwhelmed because it's me against 3 or 4 people. I keep saying this thread is for scripture and my Conspiracy flat earth thread is for science and technology data.

I'm not trying to deflect, I type slow and I'm trying to reply to everybody. Scriptures here and science in Conspiracy thread. If we can do that it will help me.
 
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JackRT

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I must say I had a reasonable faith until I came to CF. Since then I have seen such outrageous things stated in Gods name with requisite verses to match, that I find Christians and Christianity increasingly alienating and fast approaching cave-man status.

I can relate to that completely. I have been a Christian for over 70 years and a scientist for about 50 years and sometimes I just have to shake my head in disbelief. Since I began to seriously look at my faith about 35-40 years ago I have noticed some very disturbing behaviour. Most Christians do not know their own history much less understand it, I could extend this to history in general. A great many also have a very rudimentary understanding of science--- even though they might be technologically savvy. I think that it might be a combination of these two factors that makes this sort of Christian particularly vulnerable to denialism and conspiracy theories. I must admit that it perplexes me and concerns me greatly.
 
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JackRT

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I keep saying this thread is for scripture and my Conspiracy flat earth thread is for science and technology data.

OK, have it your way. I concede completely that Biblical cosmology fully supports a flat earth and all the other mythology that aggregates around it. The only question here being is if this is the "God breathed truth" or the words of men trying to present their beliefs to an almost entirely illiterate prescientific people. I withdraw from this thread as any future participation of mine is completely futile.
 
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patrick jane

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So the numerous experiences of astronauts were delusions, the images and tracking of satellites are conspiracies...... Ok enough. I just shake my head how these types of issues arise with christian cohorts making Christianity look like a bunch of kooks.
I have seen the entire interview of the astronauts who first "went to the moon" it's sad how they had to lie, You can tell easily. They are stuttering and reading off cards and can't describe what it was like, all of them contradicting each other. I can post a short clip or the worst parts. Also, take a good look at the pics below.

Sorry if this offends you, I'm not trying to make people angry or upset. I can explain satellite, how the conspiracy could be achieved and any other questions if you bear with me. I'm answering several people. My Conspiracy thread is supposed to be for science and technology evidence for both sides and this thread is for Biblical related content. I can't get anybody to listen to that. If you watch all or just a little of the 200 flat earth proofs, ALL of your questions will be answered. I watched in chunks over two days. 200.
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patrick jane

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OK, have it your way. I concede completely that Biblical cosmology fully supports a flat earth and all the other mythology that aggregates around it. The only question here being is if this is the "God breathed truth" or the words of men trying to present their beliefs to an almost entirely illiterate prescientific people. I withdraw from this thread as any future participation of mine is completely futile.
I would love to answer any questions in the conspiracy thread including science and technology evidence. If you'd watch a part or parts of that 200 flat earth proofs video, you would get answers to most all of your questions. I'll do my best to answer any question or find the aswer. It's a tough subject and I'm trying to reply to several people now. I also type bad and with only my right index finger.

I'm saying the Bible says for sure we're in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos but I see it when I read literally. It's possible that God used simpler descriptions and we we weren't meant to know back then. Give me another chance.
 
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Hieronymus

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As I said in the OP, I'm on the fence but defending flat earth for now because I defended the globe for nearly 50 years. I'm not a troll and I don't know how to hack.
Yeah, that's what you WOULD say, isn't it ?? :D ;)
I'm kidding.
And i'm sorry for not being nice.
I do that whan i get a little frustrated.
This is a very uncomfortable topic for 99% of the people I present it to.
Trust me, there are hardly any topics i'm too uncomfortable with.
I dove into the whole "Pizzagate" thing, and it doesn't get more uncomfortable than that.
Hmmm... Maybe some depopulation stuff is even worse though, depends on how you look at it.
I have this 'need to know' to understand the world better, even when it is scary, worrying and depressing.
And even when it means i will be ridiculed by the oblivious as being a "conspiracy theorist".
We're all in love with the globe. I let it go and it's liberating. I'm here to discuss facts and scripture proving we're NOT on a flying spinning ball. I've heard all your arguments before I came here and they don't convince me.
Well, i just explained to you i did let go, because i'm not "in love" with the globe model, and i even prefer the flat earth model, because it's Biblical.
I take the Bible VERY seriously, and i don't take the scientific consensus and teachings for granted.
I'm not always sure what to think though, because i'm not an expert and some things are simply beyond my knowledge and understanding. As a consequence not all of my convictions and beliefs are rational or reasonable.
For example, i lean towards a young age of creation, rather than bazzillions of years, but i'm not sure, but i decide to go by faith because it's consistent with God's history book, also known as the Bible.
And afterall, enough of it is proven to be recorded history, from Genesis 9 onwards.
The antediluvian age is rather uncertain, for obvious reasons.
...but i digress...
Yes, all flat earthers with ears no their heads have heard the objections.
But the fact that they don't have flat earth explanations for them doesn't seem to discourage them somehow.
To me that means they have made their minds up permanently, regardless of the problems the flat earth model has.
And lo and behold:
Do me a favor in the next week or next weekend. Spend a day or a few hours searching for proof and confirmation of flat earth let the science, math and the globe go temporarily. Search for flat earth proof for a bit and if you still feel the same way at least you will get answers to most of your questions. Open the the 200 proofs video, copy the url and open a new tab. Watch little bits at a time for a few days. 200 flat earth proofs. I think you'll find that there are MORE essential things NASA and science can't explain.
You give me the same non-answer to the unanswered questions...
"do more research".
I just told you i have been down that path already, and since i have too much time on my hands, i have spent hours, days doing so.
Exactly how does the flat earth fail in your studies?
I will repeat the main problems, i have this text to copy paste for when flat earthers comment on youtube:

PROOF the earth is a spinning globe: Sextant (navigation), night sky varies with latitude, slightly less gravity on the equator than on the poles due to centrifugal force, maps and distances. This is impossible in a flat earth model. No need for flying freemasons and their ambiguous video footage.

Others have pointed out many more things in this topic.
I would be happily convinced the earth is flat if they did have answers.

Let me explain why i have a problem with the flat earth propaganda:
Because it's mainly Bible believers who are flat earthers, it makes Christians look like fools, and as a consequence it makes the belief in Christ look like foolishness.
This is a problem we as Christians who are supposed to spread the Word could do without.
There are already more than enough reasons people are convinced by, to dismiss Jesus Christ and the Bible.
Personally i believe this hype to be a psyop which was started for the purpose of sowing more disbelief in Christ and his people and the Bible.
I resent that.
 
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patrick jane

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Yeah, that's what you WOULD say, isn't it ?? :D ;)
I'm kidding.
And i'm sorry for not being nice.
I do that whan i get a little frustrated.
Trust me, there are hardly any topics i'm too uncomfortable with.
I dove into the whole "Pizzagate" thing, and it doesn't get more uncomfortable than that.
Hmmm... Maybe some depopulation stuff is even worse though, depends on how you look at it.
I have this 'need to know' to understand the world better, even when it is scary, worrying and depressing.
And even when it means i will be ridiculed by the oblivious as being a "conspiracy theorist".Well, i just explained to you i did let go, because i'm not "in love" with the globe model, and i even prefer the flat earth model, because it's Biblical.
I take the Bible VERY seriously, and i don't take the scientific consensus and teachings for granted.
I'm not always sure what to think though, because i'm not an expert and some things are simply beyond my knowledge and understanding. As a consequence not all of my convictions and beliefs are rational or reasonable.
For example, i lean towards a young age of creation, rather than bazzillions of years, but i'm not sure, but i decide to go by faith because it's consistent with God's history book, also known as the Bible.
And afterall, enough of it is proven to be recorded history, from Genesis 9 onwards.
The antediluvian age is rather uncertain, for obvious reasons.
...but i digress...
Yes, all flat earthers with ears no their heads have heard the objections.
But the fact that they don't have flat earth explanations for them doesn't seem to discourage them somehow.
To me that means they have made their minds up permanently, regardless of the problems the flat earth model has.
And lo and behold:
You give me the same non-answer to the unanswered questions...
"do more research".
I just told you i have been down that path already, and since i have too much time on my hands, i have spent hours, days doing so.
I will repeat the main problems, i have this text to copy paste for when flat earthers comment on youtube:

PROOF the earth is a spinning globe: Sextant (navigation), night sky varies with latitude, slightly less gravity on the equator than on the poles due to centrifugal force, maps and distances. This is impossible in a flat earth model. No need for flying freemasons and their ambiguous video footage.

Others have pointed out many more things in this topic.
I would be happily convinced the earth is flat if they did have answers.

Let me explain why i have a problem with the flat earth propaganda:
Because it's mainly Bible believers who are flat earthers, it makes Christians look like fools, and as a consequence it makes the belief in Christ look like foolishness.
This is a problem we as Christians who are supposed to spread the Word could do without.
There are already more than enough reasons people are convinced by, to dismiss Jesus Christ and the Bible.
Personally i believe this hype to be a psyop which was started for the purpose of sowing more disbelief in Christ and his people and the Bible.
I resent that.
I now believe in the 6 Day creation and maybe the earth is around 10,000 to 6,000 years old. That includes the firmament. I haven't shown you a lot of scriptures yet but you probably know most of the. Of course, the flat earth fails when you start with globe numbers, data and calculations. I'm going to post the video again right now because I've asked a few people to watch it all or in chunks over a few days or even a week. it's about 2 hours because it takes a while to explain 200 things briefly.
200 flat earth proofs


 
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Gideons300

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Oops ! :doh::doh::doh:I somehow read 'disappear'.
I'm sorry. :oops:Yeah i agree.
But when everything goes it's normal little way, and people are content and not really in need of God, the unbelievers don't care and the believers have little to offer i.m.o.
People find themselves wondering about God and their fate when peril stares them in the eyes.
At least, speaking for myself, i started seeking Truth when my life had totally collapsed.
And now i can help others with hope and faith when they are in a rough spot.
What an awesome testimony. You are quite correct. More often than not, it takes a massive crisis to awaken people to their great need. God will give us what we need before He gives us what we want. A huge change is on the horizon for the church, and it is good change. Our eyes are about to be opened to the value of the pearl of great price, and the fact that we are asked to sell all our pearls to get it will soon be viewed as a bargain, not something to run from.

May God bless you, dear brother

Gideon
 
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The Times

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There is no where in scripture that explicitly states that the earth is a flat 2D object, sitting on four stilettos, like a table.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isaiah 24:20)

The Wobble effect, which is also felt when an escalator exhibites a push/pull effect, because the induction drive motor cannot maintain constant speed. When the earth's electromagnetic drive starts to be perturbed by the electromagnetic forces of other planetary bodies, then its magnetic field generator is disturbed and this disruption causes changes in inertia, that will be felt by an observer on the surface, as a push/pull force, much like a push/pull effect on an observer travelling on an escalator with a faulty drive system, that cannot maintain constant speed. So Isaiah describes this effect, as a reeling to and fro like a drunkard.

Real world problems, require real world consistent scientific measured data and mathematically modeled solutions

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (Isaiah 40:22)

A circle in the real world does NOT exist, because it is a two dimensional plane, which when traversed into 3D is a sphere. So a circle vantage point for Isaiah is a sphere in the real world. We live in a 3D universe and time being the 4rth dimension, which allows the animation of 3D objects. Isaiah was seeing a cross section of earth as an observer.

If I see a photo, the photo shows a 2D image. I know that what ever I see on a photo has to be interpreted into a 3D model. If you saw a photo of a ball, you would not say that it is a circle, because you know that the shape must have a stable real world structure for it to exist.

An atom is viewed as a circle, yet its modelled characteristics are of a stable sphere, with orbiting electrons, that are unstable charged particles, which need the overall balancing forces of the spherical atom, in order to exist. If a electron is dislodged from an atom, then the atom can become unstable and energy is released. The atomic bomb works on the concept of breaking apart this bond and causing the matter to annihilate itself and to convert into energy. Earth must be a stable sphere that is able to be placed in an environment like space, for it to maintain its integrity, without crumbling into none existence.

Take for example an object when put under water at pressure, whilst considering the forces imposed on it on all directions, what shape would give it structural stability? Now apply this to earth and the forces imposed on it, from the ocean, that is space. If earth was flat, then it would flake away, like the coastal land mass that is eroded by the continual forces of oceans impacting it.

Do you get the picture in layman's terms?
 
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patrick jane

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There is no where in scripture that explicitly states that the earth is a flat 2D object, sitting on four stilettos, like a table.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isaiah 24:20)

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (Isaiah 40:22)
A circle is fine for flat earth too, it actually makes more sense. The earth ONLY MOVES due to God's anger and wrath. You found one scripture, from Google no doubt. There's at least one more. Find a place or a verse where the earth "moves" or is shaken and it's not by God doing it. The curtain and spreading make more sense than the globe. He also uses the word "tent". NEXT !!!
 
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The Times

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200 flat earth proofs

Correction. You can state 200 flat earth arguments. These are not proofs.

Proofs are what I have stated below.....

Real world problems, require real world consistent scientific measured data and mathematically modeled solutions

The 200 are none related disjointed arguments that have no consistent applications elsewhere, except for the purpose of arguing a postion within a faith discourse. The Mormon and the JW can do the same thing, but arguments will never be proofs, unless they are mathematically modelled, consistently applied across many real world applications and are measurable.

My question to you is....

Where is your measured data?
What equipment did you use to gather your data?
What methodology did you use in your experiment?
The mathematical models that compare expected result as compared to the measured result?
Can you apply the above to other real world applications?

The alleged 200 proofs that are claimed are 200 none related arguments, disjointed at best and lacking in all areas of scientific discovery and engineering practice.

If we built bridges and planes like this, no bridge will be standing and no plane will fly. Roll the dice.

The Rollete of Flat Earth arguments are dismissed, because an Engineer never looks to how appealing an argument is, but how a argument can be looked as a problem and a solution provided. Since the 200 arguments can not even be seen as arguments, then there is really no argument to begin with.
 
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The Times

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A circle is fine for flat earth too, it actually makes more sense. The earth ONLY MOVES due to God's anger and wrath. You found one scripture, from Google no doubt. There's at least one more. Find a place or a verse where the earth "moves" or is shaken and it's not by God doing it. The curtain and spreading make more sense than the globe. He also uses the word "tent". NEXT !!!

Circle does not exist in the real world. This is basic elementary stuff. The circle is a 2D shape, a cross section of a 3D sphere. Much like the cross section of the moon's reflected light.

Flat Earth is not real, it is a 2D model of a circle, that needs to be interpreted into a 3D real world shape, which is a sphere.
 
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patrick jane

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There is no where in scripture that explicitly states that the earth is a flat 2D object, sitting on four stilettos, like a table.

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. (Isaiah 24:20)

22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (Isaiah 40:22)
We are like grasshoppers on an enclosed flat earth with a dome over us. Work on these scriptures tonight when you lay down. What else would have to stop if the sun and moon stopped. Explain that with a spinning flying "universe". I have the original Hebre for th dome description also. Just tell me when you're ready for all the scriptures.

Amos 9:5-6 KJV -
The Lord God of hosts,
The One who builds his upper chambers in the heavens
And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth,
He who calls for the waters of the sea
pours them out on the face of the earth,
The Lord is His name.

Joshua 10:12-14 KJV -
Then spake Joshua to the Lord
in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lordhearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel.

Job 37:18 KJV - Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
 
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Zoii

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I have seen the entire interview of the astronauts who first "went to the moon" it's sad how they had to lie, You can tell easily. They are stuttering and reading off cards and can't describe what it was like, all of them contradicting each other. I can post a short clip or the worst parts. Also, take a good look at the pics below.

Sorry if this offends you, I'm not trying to make people angry or upset. I can explain satellite, how the conspiracy could be achieved and any other questions if you bear with me. I'm answering several people. My Conspiracy thread is supposed to be for science and technology evidence for both sides and this thread is for Biblical related content. I can't get anybody to listen to that. If you watch all or just a little of the 200 flat earth proofs, ALL of your questions will be answered. I watched in chunks over two days. 200.
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You know I find it incredulous how Christians feel so free to make a statement, supported by no evidence, and happily call it truth. What evidence do you have that those astronauts were forced to lie.

As a christian to besmirch someones reputation based on no evidence - its simply ignorant and ... well it might be christian in your view to attack someones record, but its certainly unethical.

What these men and others that followed did, required extreme knowledge and skill, and bravery. Our world owes a debt of gratitude to the Russians and Americans [and now other agencies] who pioneered, and you feel so casual to call them all liars.

Christianity is fast exhausting my tolerances.
 
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patrick jane

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Correction. You can state 200 flat earth arguments. These are not proofs.

Proofs are what I have stated below.....



The 200 are none related disjointed arguments that have no consistent applications elsewhere, except for the purpose of arguing a postion within a faith discourse. The Mormon and the JW can do the same thing, but arguments will never be proofs, unless they are mathematically modelled, consistently applied across many real world applications and are measurable.

My question to you is....

Where is your measured data?
What equipment did you use to gather your data?
What methodology did you use in your experiment?
The mathematical models that compare expected result as compared to the measured result?
Can you apply the above to other real world applications?

The alleged 200 proofs that are claimed are 200 none related arguments, disjointed at best and lacking in all areas of scientific discovery and engineering practice.

If we built bridges and planes like this, no bridge will be standing and no plane will fly. Roll the dice.

The Rollete of Flat Earth arguments are dismissed, because an Engineer never looks to how appealing an argument is, but how a argument can be looked as a problem and a solution provided. Since the 200 arguments can not even be seen as arguments, then there is really no argument to begin with.
The problem you'll have understanding the facts of flat earth will stem from you using the Fake globe data and trying to compare it to flat earth. The reality is, we don't know. I'm going to post and image and this is what I believe as do many others , I'm now hearing. I thought of it before I heard it.

Here's the basic premise. In the top image you'll see the flat earth in the middle surrounded by a wall of ice all the way around. The frozen land could extend thousands of miles beyond the wall. We can't get far enough due to fuel capacity, communications, landing and refueling areas, bad weather, temperatures and other possible factors. We put a rocket high enough to see the earth wasn't what we thought in 1959.

I have a lot of information about that and other agencies that began at that moment including NASA itself. That's off topic. The point is we aren't being told the truth. I'll post and image about that. The 3rd image will be a circle squared which is absolutely possible with a flat earth and would explain the Four Corners of the earth in the Bible as also the Four Quarters in scripture.See the square and the circle and pretend it's thousands of miles of land. You have the circle and the four corners far beyond the ice wall.
Also imagine the blue circles is flat and much smaller.

You do have to take a leap of faith of sorts and imagination We take countless leaps of faith everyday.

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patrick jane

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You know I find it incredulous how Christians feel so free to make a statement, supported by no evidence, and happily call it truth. What evidence do you have that those astronauts were forced to lie.

As a christian to besmirch someones reputation based on no evidence - its simply ignorant and ... well it might be christian in your view to attack someones record, but its certainly unethical.

What these men and others that followed did, required extreme knowledge and skill, and bravery. Our world owes a debt of gratitude to the Russians and Americans [and now other agencies] who pioneered, and you feel so casual to call them all liars.

Christianity is fast exhausting my tolerances.
Bye. Thanks for the lecture. Go "help" somebody else, please. Thank you. Pictures and the behavioral analysis of the press conference by experts is my evidence. Don't worry about who I besmirch. I'm unethical, I didn't make the pictures and do the analysis. It's called Fair Use.
 
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