Biblical Contradictions

HitchSlap

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Where does it say they traveled similtaneously to places at once. Can you really point that out to me in the scriptures.
That’s the point...they didn’t travel simultaneously to separate destinations. Both accounts have Jesus leaving Bethlehem, one to Narazeth after Jewish temple rituals, blithely unaware of baby genocide, and the other to Egypt due to Herod’s insecurities.

It’s more likely that an overzealous scribe familiar with the Hosea passage interpolated the Egypt story in an attempt to square that circle. Both birth narratives are highly suspect regardless, as Luke and Matthew both heavily copied Mark, which doesn’t include a birth narrative.
 
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Tinker Grey

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That’s the point...they didn’t travel simultaneously to separate destinations. Both accounts have Jesus leaving Bethlehem, one to Narazeth after Jewish temple rituals, blithely unaware of baby genocide, and the other to Egypt due to Herod’s insecurities.

It’s more likely that an overzealous scribe familiar with the Hosea passage interpolated the Egypt story in an attempt to square that circle. Both birth narratives are highly suspect regardless, as Luke and Matthew both heavily copied Mark, which doesn’t include a birth narrative.
On top of which Hosea 11:1, usually cited as "Matthew's" source, is ripped out of context.

Hosea 11:1 says:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
But verse 2 says:
But the more they were called, the more they went away from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

How is vs 1 about Jesus, but vs 2 isn't? Why would anyone consider vs 1 a prophecy at all?

[/off topic]
 
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HitchSlap

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On top of which Hosea 11:1, usually cited as "Matthew's" source, is ripped out of context.

Hosea 11:1 says:
But verse 2 says:

How is vs 1 about Jesus, but vs 2 isn't? Why would anyone consider vs 1 a prophecy at all?

[/off topic]
Great point.
 
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dougangel

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That’s the point...they didn’t travel simultaneously to separate destinations. Both accounts have Jesus leaving Bethlehem, one to Narazeth after Jewish temple rituals, blithely unaware of baby genocide, and the other to Egypt due to Herod’s insecurities.

It’s more likely that an overzealous scribe familiar with the Hosea passage interpolated the Egypt story in an attempt to square that circle. Both birth narratives are highly suspect regardless, as Luke and Matthew both heavily copied Mark, which doesn’t include a birth narrative.

People have tried to tell u this in different ways. especially John put alot of effort into it. But I'll try again.

Responses to Bismikaallahuma : Did Jesus, Mary and Joseph go to Egypt or to Nazareth?

Matthew provides enough data to help us reconcile the two accounts. Herod's order to kill all children two years old and under is a strong indication that the Magi did not arrive immediately after the birth of Jesus, but some time afterwards. Otherwise it would have been quite foolish for Herod to issue such a command if Jesus were only an infant. We are not told how old Jesus was at the arrival of the Magi. He may have been a one-year-old or even 18 months. Whatever the age, it seems clear, that the Magi's visitation didn't occur only days after Christ's birth.

Luke, on the other hand, states that Jesus was still an infant when Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth:

"On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, ‘Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord’), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: ‘a pair of doves or two young pigeons’ ... When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him." Luke 2:21-24, 39-40

Comparing two reports about different events that took place nearly two years apart, would anyone expect these two reports to be identical?

In light of the preceding considerations, it does certainly not take a rocket scientist to see that these verses are not at all contradictory or irreconcilable. It becomes rather easy to resolve Menj's alleged error.

Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem to present the new born infant in the temple. From there, they went back to their home in Nazareth. A short time later, the holy family decided to return to Joseph's ancestral hometown and Jesus' birthplace, namely Bethlehem in Judea. This is where Matthew picks up. When the Magi found the child Jesus, he was already up to two years old. Being told in a dream about Herod's desire to kill the child, Joseph left his home and took his family to Egypt until the death of Herod. Fearing that Herod's son Archelaus would search them out if they returned to Bethlehem, the holy family once again returned to Nazareth and settled there.

Bethlehem was 4-5 days from nazareth on foot. Bethlehem was Josephs ancestrial family home with his relatives. It is possible they travelled there several times and it wasn't documented. That is not a contradiction.
If one off the accounts said they didn't go to either bethlehem, nazareth, Jeruselem. That would be a contradiction.
 
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HitchSlap

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People have tried to tell u this in different ways. especially John put alot of effort into it. But I'll try again.

Responses to Bismikaallahuma : Did Jesus, Mary and Joseph go to Egypt or to Nazareth?

Matthew provides enough data to help us reconcile the two accounts. Herod's order to kill all children two years old and under is a strong indication that the Magi did not arrive immediately after the birth of Jesus, but some time afterwards. Otherwise it would have been quite foolish for Herod to issue such a command if Jesus were only an infant. We are not told how old Jesus was at the arrival of the Magi. He may have been a one-year-old or even 18 months. Whatever the age, it seems clear, that the Magi's visitation didn't occur only days after Christ's birth.

Luke, on the other hand, states that Jesus was still an infant when Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth:

"On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, ‘Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord’), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: ‘a pair of doves or two young pigeons’ ... When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him." Luke 2:21-24, 39-40

Comparing two reports about different events that took place nearly two years apart, would anyone expect these two reports to be identical?

In light of the preceding considerations, it does certainly not take a rocket scientist to see that these verses are not at all contradictory or irreconcilable. It becomes rather easy to resolve Menj's alleged error.

Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem to present the new born infant in the temple. From there, they went back to their home in Nazareth. A short time later, the holy family decided to return to Joseph's ancestral hometown and Jesus' birthplace, namely Bethlehem in Judea. This is where Matthew picks up. When the Magi found the child Jesus, he was already up to two years old. Being told in a dream about Herod's desire to kill the child, Joseph left his home and took his family to Egypt until the death of Herod. Fearing that Herod's son Archelaus would search them out if they returned to Bethlehem, the holy family once again returned to Nazareth and settled there.

Bethlehem was 4-5 days from nazareth on foot. Bethlehem was Josephs ancestrial family home with his relatives. It is possible they travelled there several times and it wasn't documented. That is not a contradiction.
If one off the accounts said they didn't go to either bethlehem, nazareth, Jeruselem. That would be a contradiction.
I appreciate these explanations. It helps me to understand how others rationalize biblical contradictions. It really is fascinating to me, the psychology of it all. Everyone seems to have levels of cognitive dissonance they're willing to accept, until a certain line is crossed, and we all have lines. Where those lines are is the interesting part. Please, keep them coming.

For the record, I believe both birth narratives are complete fabrications. The anonymous authors were not present at the time of Jesus' birth, and as such, the detail of these stories is impossible to know, as Mary or Joseph never recorded anything.
 
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dougangel

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On top of which Hosea 11:1, usually cited as "Matthew's" source, is ripped out of context.

Hosea 11:1 says:
But verse 2 says:

How is vs 1 about Jesus, but vs 2 isn't? Why would anyone consider vs 1 a prophecy at all?

[/off topic]

What you have to understand, Is Jesus is spiritually, symbollicaly Israel.
Many of those scriptures have been fullfilled in reality already in actual OT Israel in the physical.
So the book of Matthew is alluding too, pointing too or copying a OT phrase that has been fullfilled already physically. Matthew(book of) does this many times. Allusions are a legitimate type of prophecy. Hosea 11 goes into many different topics.

Hosea 11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
( The son of God is called out of Egypt )
2 The more [the prophets] called them, the more they went from them: they sacrificed unto the Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
( Jesus the prophet called to them but they went from him, rejected him )
 
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dougangel

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Forget contradictions. There are entire sections of the Gospels that have either been added or deleted, depending on which manuscript you are reading.

The early church leaders chose and rejected writings and cannonised them. I have no problem with that. The way the NT came together is pretty amazing. The cannonised writings are the ones that have an anoiting on them.
 
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HitchSlap

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The early church leaders chose and rejected writings and cannonised them. I have no problem with that. The way the NT came together is pretty amazing. The cannonised writings are the ones that have an anoiting on them.
The NT came together over several centuries, and had bitter fights and arguments over what should/n't be included. In fact, to this day, different denominations include books that others will not.
 
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dougangel

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The NT came together over several centuries, and had bitter fights and arguments over what should/n't be included. In fact, to this day, different denominations include books that others will not.

With the passage of time the Church discerned which writings were truly Apostolic and which were not. It was a prolonged struggle taking place over several centuries in which the Church decided what books were her own. As part of the process of discerning, the Church met together in council. These various Church councils met to deal with many varied issues, among which was the canon of Scripture.

These councils met to discern and formally confirm what was already generally accepted within the Church at large. They did not legislate Scripture as much as they set forth what had become self-evident truth and practice within the Churches of God. The councils sought to proclaim the common mind of the Church and reflect the unanimity of faith, practice, and tradition of the local Churches represented.
The Church Councils provide us with specific records in which the Church spoke clearly and in unison as to what constitutes Scripture. Among the many councils that met during the first four centuries, two particularly stand out:

1. The Council of Laodicea, which met in Asia Minor, around A.D. 363. This council stated that only canonical books of the Old and New Testaments should be used in the Church. It forbade reading other books in Church. It enumerated the canonical books of our present Old and New Testaments, with the exception of the Apocalypse of Saint John. This is the first council which clearly listed the canonical books. Its decisions were widely accepted in the Eastern Church.

2. The Third Council of Carthage, which met in North Africa, around A.D. 397.This Council, attended by Augustine, provided a full list of the canonical books of both Old and New Testaments. The 27 books of the present day New Testament were accepted as canonical. It also held that these books should be read in the Church as Divine Scripture to the exclusion of all others. This Council was widely accepted as authoritative in the West.http://www.orthodoxresearchinsti...

Interestingly, the first known attempt to establish a canon occurred in 170 AD - it is known as the Muratorian Canon - this list includes all of the currently accepted New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. This attests to the authenticity of the books included in the cannon due to the early adoption of truly inspired New Testament writings, and the consistency of the consensus in the Christian church with regard to which books were included in the canon.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/...

THis is my understanding of THe subject. I have no problem with it. I have read the NT a few times and parts of it many times. What jesus said how he lived his life. The prophecies about the world. The truths in it. Convince me it is the truth about life. THeres a few things I don't understand but nothing major. The themes are very consistant through out the NT. Yeah sure there are anomalies but not that many considering how many different writers there are. The anomalies convince me it wasn't contrived.
 
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HitchSlap

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With the passage of time the Church discerned which writings were truly Apostolic and which were not. It was a prolonged struggle taking place over several centuries in which the Church decided what books were her own. As part of the process of discerning, the Church met together in council. These various Church councils met to deal with many varied issues, among which was the canon of Scripture.

These councils met to discern and formally confirm what was already generally accepted within the Church at large. They did not legislate Scripture as much as they set forth what had become self-evident truth and practice within the Churches of God. The councils sought to proclaim the common mind of the Church and reflect the unanimity of faith, practice, and tradition of the local Churches represented.
The Church Councils provide us with specific records in which the Church spoke clearly and in unison as to what constitutes Scripture. Among the many councils that met during the first four centuries, two particularly stand out:

1. The Council of Laodicea, which met in Asia Minor, around A.D. 363. This council stated that only canonical books of the Old and New Testaments should be used in the Church. It forbade reading other books in Church. It enumerated the canonical books of our present Old and New Testaments, with the exception of the Apocalypse of Saint John. This is the first council which clearly listed the canonical books. Its decisions were widely accepted in the Eastern Church.

2. The Third Council of Carthage, which met in North Africa, around A.D. 397.This Council, attended by Augustine, provided a full list of the canonical books of both Old and New Testaments. The 27 books of the present day New Testament were accepted as canonical. It also held that these books should be read in the Church as Divine Scripture to the exclusion of all others. This Council was widely accepted as authoritative in the West.http://www.orthodoxresearchinsti...

Interestingly, the first known attempt to establish a canon occurred in 170 AD - it is known as the Muratorian Canon - this list includes all of the currently accepted New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. This attests to the authenticity of the books included in the cannon due to the early adoption of truly inspired New Testament writings, and the consistency of the consensus in the Christian church with regard to which books were included in the canon.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/...

THis is my understanding of THe subject. I have no problem with it. I have read the NT a few times and parts of it many times. What jesus said how he lived his life. The prophecies about the world. The truths in it. Convince me it is the truth about life. THeres a few things I don't understand but nothing major. The themes are very consistant through out the NT. Yeah sure there are anomalies but not that many considering how many different writers there are. The anomalies convince me it wasn't contrived.
Cool.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The doctrine of plenary, verbal inspiration is CERTAINLY affected!

....plenary, schmenary! I think the whole idea about inspiration of the Bible is over-hyped (and not really clear); it's also not really needed as extensively as is often claimed by Christians in order to support their faith in Christ.

All that HAS to be believed, at bare minimum, is that we think God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, somehow gave bare bones sparks of impetus to the New Testament writers to write as best they humanly could about their experiences and/or understandings about Jesus. The writings themselves, being the products of men and women who spiritually followed Jesus when He was tangibly a historically human presence, are in this sense "inspired," even if they are still merely expressions trapped in the artistry of human language for a human audience. And in saying this, I'm adapting a queue or two, or insinuations, from the likes of Paul Tillich or Langdon Gilkey, as well as from Peter Enns and Kenton L. Sparks, among other more philosophically expansive Christian scholars.

In essence, all there needs to be is some "represented truth" inherent within the New Testament writings over which we end up surprisingly stubbing our toes after having ignorantly trodden over it time and time again, some "truth" that can't be dispelled, no matter how many Richard Carriers or Richard Dawkins come along in a given time and no matter how many dirt-clods are thrown at the Church's door.

:cool:
 
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Uber Genius

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The doctrine of plenary, verbal inspiration is CERTAINLY affected!
Right but verbal plenary inspiration is NOT a Central doctrine!

Where in the early creeds to we see any such concept?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No, really, HitchSlap. It's going to depend on which Christian group you ask, as well as to which religious Jewish group you ask. For a more extended and insightful discussion on the expanse of views on both the nature of biblical inspiration and the concept of inerrancy, see Thorsen and Reeves (2012), What Christians Believe About the Bible: A Concise Guide for Students.
 
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HitchSlap

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No, really, HitchSlap. It's going to depend on which Christian group you ask, as well as to which religious Jewish group you ask. For a more extended and insightful discussion on the expanse of views on both the nature of biblical inspiration and the concept of inerrancy, see Thorsen and Reeves (2012), What Christians Believe About the Bible: A Concise Guide for Students.
You’re telling me.
 
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John 1720

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The below image represents the first 3 sigma bands of the normal curve. Now, if I were to test 10,000 students, I could statistically be confident that the grades of 9,973 of them would fall somewhere into the 3 bands of this grading category. So it would be fair for me to say that "almost all" of the students tested would be in this 3 sigma band of grades. Conversely, it would also be apropos to state comparatively that "very few of the students" would be normally or typically be outside this band.
The point is that the present modern text of the NT, which utilizes the wealth of the many, many Greek Manuscripts in our possession is able to determine the most accurate text. The modern reconstruction of the NT would better this statistical rating given above and shown below by about another sigma band.

2
std normal curve 3 sigmas.gif
The Context for "Cool" I believe is in reference to a previous post about the eventual approval of the canonical New Testament; to which I mean to add some qualifiers relative to the integrity of the Scripture of the NT which we are able to derive from our earliest copies.

So what books were eventually accepted as Canonical, and as originating from the hand of an apostle, eyewitness, or the scribe of an eyewitness or apostle, is a very different question than asking do we have or can we determine the original text of the New Testament. I would further state that modern translations, in light of the wealth of early texts within our possession, do in fact statistically and in all probability, falls somewhere within a normalcy of 4 to 5 sigmas; this approximately with respect to representing the original copies (i.e the autographs). Lastly it can be proven that it is a blatantly false assertion that any councils on doctrine altered or purposefully corrupted any of the text in order to espouse supposedly 'new' or so called 'evolving' doctrines.

Hence posts listing all the various councils up to the 4th century really have nothing to do with manuscript (MS) text modifications, which by all accounts were already firmly established centuries before they took place. We also have in our possession many early Greek and Syriac manuscripts substantiate this.
So really conspiracy theories relative to NT Texts have no basis in fact, especially relative to councils, and moreso posts which illustrate these doctrinal councils were at the end of the 4th century or later.
Regards, Pat
Here is a collection of early Papyrus which has been used in recovering and hence restoring the text with integrity.

MS
Matthew P1, 19, 21, 25, 37, 45, 53, 64, 67, 70, 77, 101, 103, 104
c. 150–250 (2nd–3rd century)

Large fragments
Mark P45c. 250 (3rd century)

Large fragments
Luke P4, 69, 75, 45
c. 175–250 (2nd–3rd century)

Large fragments
John P6, 22, 28, 39, 45, 52, 66, 75, 80, 90, 95, 106
c. 125–250 (2nd–3rd century)

Large fragments
Acts p29, 38, 45, 48, 53, 74, 91
Early 3rd century

Large fragments
Romans p27, 40, 46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
1 Corinthians p14, 15, 46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
2 Corinthians p46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
Galatians p46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
Ephesians P46, 49
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
Philippians P16, 46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
Colossians p46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
1 Thessalonians p30, 46, 65
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments P30
2 Thessalonians
c. AD200-225 Early 3rd century

Fragments
1 Timothy
א
c. 350 (4th century)

Complete
2 Timothy
א
c. 350 (4th century)

Complete
Titus p32
c. 200 (late 2nd – early 3rd century)

Fragment
Philemon p87
3rd century

Fragment
Hebrews p12, 13, 17, 46
c. 175–225 (2nd–3rd century)

Fragments
James p20, 23, 100
3rd Century

Fragments
1 Peter p81, 24, 72
c. 300 (late 3rd – early 4th century)

Fragments
2 Peter p72
c. 300 (late 3rd – early 4th century

Fragments
1 John p9
3rd century

Fragment
2 John
א
c. 350 (4th century)

Complete
3 John
א
c. 350 (4th century)

Complete
Jude p72, 78
c. AD 300 (late 3rd or very early 4th century)

Fragments
Revelation p18, 24, 47, 98, 115
c. 150–250 (mid 2nd to mid 3rd century)

Fragment
P90 (Oxyrhynchus)
John 18.36-19.7
Date of Autograph :96 AD
Date of Actual: 150-200 AD
Timespan: 50-100years

P104 (Oxyrhynchus)
Matthew 21.34-37, 43, 45
Date of Autograph:
60-65 AD
Date of Actual: 150-200 AD
Timespan: 90-140 years

P98 (IFAO)
Revelation 1.13-2.1
Date of Autograph: 90 AD
Date of Actual: 150-200 AD
Timespan: 50-100 years

P46 (Chester Beatty Papyrus)
Romans 5.17-6.3, 5-14; 8.15-25, 27-35; 10.1-11.22, 24-33, 35; 16.1-23, 25-27; Hebrews; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Ephesians; Galatians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 Thessalonians 1.1, 9-10; 2.1-3; 5.5-9,
23-28

Autograph: 50’s-70’s AD
Copy: 200 AD
Timespan: 150 years

P66 (Bodmer Papyrus)
John 1.1-6.11, 6.35-14.26; fragment of 14.29-21.9
Original 90’s AD
Copy 200 AD
Timespan 110 years

P67
Matthew 3.9, 15; 5.20-22; 25-28
Autograph: 60-65 AD
Copy: 200 AD
Timespan: 140 years

We have far, far many more copies of early MS than any other historical literary work in existence. Yet you do not hear skeptics claim we do not know about the Caesar or the Roman Emperors that followed him. This abundance means we can reconstruct the text of the MT within 4 sigmas. This is better than the normal curve shown at the top of this post. So it can confidently be stated that our modern translations faithfully reproduce the original texts and teachings of Jesus and that any deviation from the original texts have either highlighted in footnotes or extracted. In short any suppose deviations from the original text would be relegated to an obscure outlier with respect to the text we have in our possession.

Cheers, Pat
 
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