Bible VS Organized Religion

[dlamberth]

I understand, and I was just showing the difference between Organized Religion and being religious about something, .. either good deeds, or going for a nice walk every morning at 6AM. Neither one has to do anything with God, .. or gods.

Is that being "religious"? Or perhaps "spiritual". Being Spiritual need not have anything to do with God(s) either.

 

[Arius]

An Arian and a Socinian walk into a bar...

-CryptoLutheran

Greetings @ViaCrucis that's funny. Only, ..

"Sozzini was the first of the Italian Antitrinitarians to go beyond Arian beliefs in print and deny the pre-existence of Christ "- Wikipedia

I believe in the pre-existence of Christ, .. John 1 - is clear that "the Word was with God" and that God created all things 'through him and for him'.

 

[Arius]

If Birdman becomes obsessed with his wingless self, then that is truth. Or he could change the script of the game himself and create his own truth.

Thanks again for your response friend @TheOldWays

My analogy goes far more than a simple hypothetical assumption;
* The gameworld and Birdman is my creation, nothing in the game can do anything to alter the program (Word/codes/rules) I created them out of.

* Nothing happens with Birdman, or the game, it just sits there (like man after being created from the dust of the earth, just lay there motionless like a pile of dust.)

* When my son calls his friends over and gives them that 'joystick', those characters suddenly receive the 'breath of life' in them, and they become living souls (just an analogy).

* The Soul (my sons friend) that controls Birdman can only do what my program allows him to do. If I clipped the wings of Birdman in the program, the Soul (my sons friend) can come to me and make his complaint (pray). If I feel his complaint justifies his character to get his wings back, I may change the program and do just that, reprogram the wing back (miracle).

God could appreciate that. He wants us to co-create with Him, not blindly follow a script laid down by other men.

Ah yes, .. "Worldcraft", .. that's exactly why that game was created, so the souls (my son and his friends) could take control of those bodies and create things.
It's the same with us here on earth, us controlling our physical bodies to create.

Be careful you don't create your own gods.

Why would I, we are already little gods, created in Gods image just as Jesus told the Pharisees. What we have to worry about is Satan's delusions implanted in our minds and forget who we are, and start thinking we are "Like the Most High".
I understand who I am, and who our Infinite and Eternal Creative Spirit/Mind God "I Am" is also, it's all there in the Bible, as evidenced by observing the world around us, including ourselves (as in science).

This is why I used the computer-game analogy, it fits exactly with our own creation. Matter of fact, never in history could we understand God our Creator, and how He created us, more than we can do now in these Last Days!

Believe what you like, but remember there are many pendulums that seek to snare us and steer us away from God and our role as co-creators.

I hear you my dear friend, and from what I have learned in life, from all the things I've seen, it is truly frightening how Satan has deluded us into actually believing in all his lies!
Like how (snake-tongued) NASA has become the definition of science, when in fact all they do as far as science goes is shoot up rockets, like a father and son team do as a hobby. Only they take in over 10 BILLION dollars a month on average, while the father and son team can barely afford water-rockets.

Everything else about space, the infinite expanding vacuum in 'they don't know what' is all CGI cartoons and artist rendered imagery, reinforced with a globe in every classroom, fake paintings of planets in science books and a plethora of ever-growing sci-fi rhetoric. They actually use pictures of Star wars planets, and announce it as a "New Earth-like planet found only 4.2 billion light years away" and stories like that to keep us amused. Oh yes, and cool looking Sci-Fi Movies.
I wonder how many more blind-faith volunteers signed up for the next NASA's "Mission to Mars" project after the release of the movie "The Martian", .. you know, to go and save Matt Damon!?

Religion doesn't work as well as it used to, so we see new 'religions' pop up today, like conspiracy theories to snare us.

I beg to differ my friend, Religion works better today than it ever did before. Why do you think these 'new religions' are popping up almost daily? It's to keep people all confused, to run around looking for that "right religion that is the closest to God" (as I did half my life), when in fact NO Religion profess our One and Only Possible Creator "I Am". Religion, that is Organized Religion can't afford to let God, especially God, as through the New Revelation of His Son into their churches.

Here is what I can tell you, that both theist and atheists are governed by one Religion created idea, or another, .. reinforced by "blind faith".
You heard the saying: "faith and science don't mix", .. but in reality, todays science which revolves around their cosmos relies solely on "blind faith". Here and there they throw in some real science which they point to in defense of "we are a science organization" but the rest is all lies to keep people from seeking God, their One and Only possible Creator.

As a former conspiracy theory enthusiast and avid rabbit hole explorer, I get the draw, but we must stay 'awake' and not 'fall asleep' in our journey. It's funny that conspiracy theories sell themselves as 'awakening' people, but it's really a path to slumber, like many other paths (politics, religion, sports, etc). Not to say you can't engage with them, you can and sometimes you must but just 'surf' them, and don't jump into the water and get lost in the depths.

Oh yes, I agree with you there! But they do reveal 'some truth', many of which I have never even thought about before? It's those precious "puzzle pieces" that are missing in my search for truth that I take with me.
I found that almost every Religion has some of those pieces of "truths", .. actually they need those, it is what keeps people coming back to them, rather then coming to Christ who can take those precious 'pieces of truths' and reveal that straight-and-narrow path so few is traveling on!

You will find lots of solid things to depend on if you look for them.

True, .. the trick is, knowing its value, and where to use it, .. right?

God bless you.

 

[Arius]

Is that being "religious"? Or perhaps "spiritual". Being Spiritual need not have anything to do with God(s) either.

True, .. this is why "we are to test the spirits", for there are some powerful "Principalities and Powers" out there that can deceive us, right?

 

[Chesterton]

I understand, and I was just showing the difference between Organized Religion and being religious about something, .. either good deeds, or going for a nice walk every morning at 6AM. Neither one has to do anything with God, .. or gods.

They have everything to do with God.

 

[Radagast]

I'm getting rather sick of visitors coming to a Christian discussion forum and telling us our beliefs are wrong.

 

[Radagast]

YHWH is the Father of Yeshua and the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

The Second Person of the Trinity, our Lord Jesus Christ, is fully God, as our SoF says, and therefore He is also YHWH. Furthermore, all things were created by Him.

 

[Radagast]

Also, capitalizing "Word" is just a trinitarian translator trick to make you think the logos is a person rather than a thing (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts).

The Logos is a person or entity. Any other view is misreading the text, and misunderstanding the concept of "Logos" in 1st century thought.

Also, "the Word was God" is a faulty translation which messes with the Greek order of words.

Not so. There are good grammatical reasons for the standard translation.

You quoted Mounce. Why didn't you continue the quotation to the subsequent lines? "That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Greetings @ViaCrucis that's funny. Only, ..

"Sozzini was the first of the Italian Antitrinitarians to go beyond Arian beliefs in print and deny the pre-existence of Christ "- Wikipedia

I believe in the pre-existence of Christ, .. John 1 - is clear that "the Word was with God" and that God created all things 'through him and for him'.

You're not the Socinian here.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[dlamberth]

I'm getting rather sick of visitors coming to a Christian discussion forum and telling us our beliefs are wrong.

Through the years I've even watched Christians come into this open sub-forum of CF and tell other Christians that they were wrong. That kind of thing happens here. This sub-forum, being open means that non-Christians are in the mix with many of them having been Christians once. So, like you, they have their own ideas that they have picked up over time. While I'm writing this though, I'm trying to find a way to humbly suggest that if their replies bother you so much that their making you sick, perhaps this isn't the place for you. Because it just may continue.

 

[Arius]

They have everything to do with God.

So an unbeliever going for a walk every morning for an hour for the past 10 years is because he is religious about God?

Organized Religion has everything to do with gods of the supernatural kind, Deities, .. look up deities, or the supernatural realm, divinations etc. and then see what the definitions are, and then look up what the Bible has to say about them.

Christians go to Schools of Divinity to get a degree in "divination", now look up how God feels about us turning to 'divining spirits' for help or information. King Saul is a good example for that.

 

[Arius]

This, to me, is the essence of the Good News that needs to be preached. Thank You!

Imagine what the world would look like if we actually did become Christ like with Love, Compassion and helping the sick and those in need.

Yes my friend, I can imagine it, but that will never happen as long as a Religion interprets the Bible. It turns out exactly like when the Pharisees preached Gods Word, .. all talk, but their hearts were far from God.
As I said, as long as people go to "Religion and their churches" to find God, they will never find Him. What they will find is "deities that rule from the supernatural realm."

God bless you.

 

[Arius]

I'm getting rather sick of visitors coming to a Christian discussion forum and telling us our beliefs are wrong.

I not only have the right, but an obligation to my Lord Jesus Christ to tell the truth. Besides, I was raised a Christian, and as long as Christians claim to use the Bible, we must stand up to any false teaching of it. Not just my, but your own eternal soul salvation depends on it!

I am not against your Religion, it's the Biblical teachings that is offensive and misleading. Any Religion can use the Bible, even Buddhists use Christ's teachings, just don't claim things that the Bible is clearly against.
Come to think of it, Buddhists make honest references to Christ's teachings, they don't turn him into some deity who divines from the supernatural realm. They just quote what he said.

 

[Arius]

The Second Person of the Trinity, our Lord Jesus Christ, is fully God, as our SoF says, and therefore He is also YHWH. Furthermore, all things were created by Him.

That's true, the Christian Religions SoF does say that, and that is fine as long as you don't claim the Bible, or the Word of God said that. A Religion can claim whatever they wish, that's why we have thousands of Christian Denominations, and they all worship some form of Deity, or some super human power, or some supernatural being.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So an unbeliever going for a walk every morning for an hour for the past 10 years is because he is religious about God?

Organized Religion has everything to do with gods of the supernatural kind, Deities, .. look up deities, or the supernatural realm, divinations etc. and then see what the definitions are, and then look up what the Bible has to say about them.

Christians go to Schools of Divinity to get a degree in "divination", now look up how God feels about us turning to 'divining spirits' for help or information. King Saul is a good example for that.

"Divinity" here refers to theology. It is not a degree in divination, it is a degree in divinity, aka theology. Nobody is studying divination at a Christian seminary.

"Divinity is the study of Christian and other theology and ministry at a school, divinity school, university, or seminary. The term is sometimes a synonym for theology as an academic, speculative pursuit, and sometimes is used for the study of applied theology and ministry to make a distinction between that and academic theology. It most often refers to Christian study which is linked with the professional degrees for ordained ministry or related work, though it is also used in an academic setting by other faith traditions." - Divinity (academic discipline) - Wikipedia

"Definition of divinity
plural divinities
1 :theology
2 :the quality or state of being divine
3 often capitalized :a divine being: such as
a :god 1
b (1) :god 2
(2) :goddess
4 :fudge made of whipped egg whites, sugar, and nuts"
- Definition of DIVINITY (emphasis in bold is mine)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Chesterton]

So an unbeliever going for a walk every morning for an hour for the past 10 years is because he is religious about God?

You said nothing about an "unbeliever" in your original comment.

 

[gadar perets]

He sent a 100% flesh and blood man.

Luke 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Here is where some Christian Religious sect claims: "Can you live forever in Paradise on Earth" so they make Jesus just another man, who will rule with them! But Jesus was NOT just another man born of a woman:

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

I never said he was “just another man”. He was obviously conceived differently than all other men. That does not change the fact that YHWH created him to be a 100% man just as He created Adam to be a 100% man even though Adam didn’t have an earthly father. Yeshua was also the only sinless man.

Revelations 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

Yes, now that YHWH’s spoken words and thoughts became a flesh and blood man, that man is called “The Word of God”. Yeshua is the King of all earthly kings and Lord of all earthly Lords, but he is not the King or Lord of his Father YHWH.

".. and the Word became flesh, .. was named Jesus, .. we beheld his glory as he ascend to Heaven, ..

and promised He will return, and John seen His glorified body as; He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God." Are you sure I'm reading into it? It sounds to me that the whole New Testament claims that Jesus was the Word of God.
But some Religion claims that Jesus was born 100% flesh ignoring the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, a virgin, and gave birth.
Wait, you deny the virgin birth also?

I know he was born of a virgin. Yes, you are reading the Son into John 1:1-5. You are not reading the Son into Revelation 19:11.

So Gods "thoughts" became flesh, .. did he meet Jesus who was of 100% flesh? What did this "thing" YHWH's spoken words and thoughts look like in the flesh? What did he do, because all I know is Jesus the Word of God, I don't know this "thing" who became flesh?

YHWH spoke His Son into existence (the logos/word became flesh). Once the logos became flesh, it was no longer a thing, but a person.

So "it" became flesh, and dwelt amongst us, that's one? Then who was this 100% flesh who claimed to be the 'Messiah' who was born of Mary, that's two? Then there is the baby of a Virgin- Mary who also beget a son through the Holy Spirit, that would be three!? Sounds like another version of a Trinity Doctrine?

That is because you like to twist my words to justify your own false teachings. I already told you I reject the trinity. The baby who was conceived and who was the Messiah is Yeshua. The power of YHWH brought it to pass.

You see I am a simple man, very little schooling, abused near to death almost daily growing up, at least till I was 12, barely learned to read and very little math, so I just stick with the simple English Bible, using several versions to make sure what I read fits with the rest of the Bible. I read what it says, and the Bible says: "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, male and female" and I gave you the Biblical definitions which you can cross reference all you want, it will not change. Here is what I wrote:

John 1 is one of the most 'revealing' chapters in the Bible! It reveals what came before the creation of the world, before God fixed the chaotic world that was then (Gen 1:1) and made it habitable for His next plan (Gen 1:2-), man, who He, throw His Son created in His, and His son Words image; .. "male and female He created them", remember?

We don’t learn doctrinal truth by studying only the English Bible. Nor do we learn it by the commentaries of men. Even a simple child can read Genesis 1:26 and not find “Jesus” there without reading him into the text.

Look, 1. In the beginning was the Word,
this is the Sons beginning, and the 'beginning of all Gods creation, .. which He did through His son Word! God is Infinite. He doesn't "live in infinity", .. He IS Infinite, which is also Eternal. God has no beginning nor end, but His Son Word (now also named Jesus) IS the "Beginning and the End"!

You start out by reading the Son in John 1:1a. Therefore, the rest of your interpretation MUST also be in error. You must go to the Greek word “logos” and determine its meaning (thoughts, speech). Since logos is used in conjunction with the creation of Genesis 1, we MUST understand its meaning in light of that and not add to its meaning as Trinitarian theologians have. How was creation made?

Genesis 1:3,6,9,11,14,20, and 24, all of which begin, “And Elohim (God) said.” YHWH spoke and it was done.
Psalm 33:6,9 says, “By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host by the breath of his mouth. . . For He spoke and it was; He commanded, and it stood fast.”

The Son is nowhere mentioned in Genesis. His Father (Elohim/God) created everything by speaking it into existence via His logos/word.

and the Word was with God,
But of course Gods son Word was with God, he had to be for God to start creating everything through him, .. right?

Your reading of the Son into John 1:1a now begins to skew the rest of your interpretation as you read him into every verse. YHWH’s thoughts and words were with Him just as your thoughts and words are with you.

and the Word was God.

Oh boy how the Christian Religion whacked this last verse out of context. But thanks be to God, we have supporting evidence to what the Lord Revealed to me, and what I show you next. Here it is:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Now look at Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

This is the creation of man, Adam who represents God, .. or Gods image. But we see there that God says to His Son Word: "Let us, .. make man in our image" (remember God created everything through His son Word, so it was obviously him who God was talking to) So let's see where the image of His son is created?

.. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

You see, .. "Let us make man in our image" "Us", that's two, God and his son Word, .. one is Adam, and the other is Eve. So now you understand what "and the Word was God" means Scripturally!?

Just as the Word was God before God beget/created him, Eve was Adam before God beget/created her out of Adam. So "Eve was Adam" before she was "with Adam", .. just as "the Word was God" before "the Word was with God".

"the Word was God" is a faulty translation which messes with the Greek order of words.
Here is an excerpt from one of the most, if not the most widely used Biblical Greek Grammars (Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003.)

I addressed all this already.

Like I said, I am a simple man, but not dumb. Neither do I go with what's the most popular. Jesus picked the simple fisherman and shepherds to preach His Word, and they wrote it down. I'm sure Scholars will find fault in those Fisherman's writings, but I believe Gods message is clear. This is how it all cross references throughout the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, so I will stick with this.

I would think a simple man would understand that his lack of knowledge concerning Greek would be a great detriment to understanding truth. Such a man should yield to one of the best Greek scholars that Christians normally use. I hope pride is not keeping you simple. You say you don’t go with what is most popular, but that is exactly what you are doing by going with the popular Christian interpretation of John 1. That is why you tried to support your belief by appealing to Christian commentators.

 

[gadar perets]

You quoted Mounce. Why didn't you continue the quotation to the subsequent lines? "That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father."

Because I wanted you to see his true interpretation of the text without him reading his trinitarian bias into it. Even though he is a trinitarian, he still does not understand John 1:1 as most Christians do who don't even know Greek.

 

[gadar perets]

You're not the Socinian here.

-CryptoLuthearn

Neither am I. Just because you and I may hold some similar beliefs does not make us Socinians.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Neither am I. Just because you and I may hold some similar beliefs does not make us Socinians.

I'm not a Socinian. Socinianism is the teaching that Jesus did not pre-exist His conception and birth. Last I checked that's what you've claimed to believe.

-CryptoLutheran