Bible VS Organized Religion

[Arius]

Greetings to the church of God (not the name of the Organized Religion or denomination thereof) to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord!

This is a call for all "Believers" in our uncreated God revealed in the Bible, whom His Son Word, who when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth, born of a woman, and was named Jesus Christ so he may reveal to us the One True and the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator of all things created, the Great "I Am". His Father and our Father, His God and our God.

Notice I did not call upon either "Christian or any of its many denominations", or any "other Organized Religions", but said that this is a call to ALL Believers in our uncreated God, the One True and the Only Possible Infinite and Eternal Creator of all things created "I Am" mentioned in the Bible, .. wherever they may be!?

You may say: "Well hellooo there Arius, that is the God we all worship!"

My response; That's exactly what I though too, until I was excommunicated for not having enough 'faith' in my Denomination and its Teachers/Pastors/Elders, for they told me 'there is One God, and it's in this Denomination!'" and when I asked them: "How about all the other Denominations?"
I was told: "There is only One road and One gate that leads to Heaven, not hundreds of denominations with hundreds of their doctrines, and you have to choose. So tell us, do you, or do you not believe that this is the only right path!? Where is your 'faith' Brother, have you talked to that 'other' denomination and loose your faith?"

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Yes, .. I lost 'faith', but not in Christ, and as in 1 Cor 1:11-13 I am IN Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, as described in John 1:1-

The question is, what sort of faith are we talking about? In my next post...

 

[Tigger45]

Bible vs Organized religion?

Biblical Judaism & Christianity are both highly organized.

 

[Arius]

Bible vs Organized religion?

Biblical Judaism & Christianity are both highly organized.

I agree, more so than any other Religion aside maybe of Islam, you agree?

Thank you for your response @Tigger45

 

[Arius]

People like social status and to be happy
I'd hope to be able to not offend God even if I've disappointed my fleshly parents
I'd like people to have peace, understanding, humbleness. God did help harlots and other criminals or victims...low and high. There's so much better than the counterfeits of the world...when people can truly believe Jesus Christ.
That's who they want to marry
But people get caught by all the pretty girls and glittery churches
I'm sure He'll get what He wants by His Word.
Amen

I agree, I would hate to offend God, especially referring to Him as if He was one of the "created gods" that we now have so many of out there, right? That's why it is imperative to know who our Creator God mentioned in the Bible really is, or to have "evidence" of God .. don't you think?

 

[Tigger45]

I agree, more so than any other Religion aside maybe of Islam, you agree?

Thank you for your response @Tigger45

I would tend to agree although I have little knowledge of Islam.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Hey, I'm liking the thread! You bring up some interesting points.

It's true that we are to seek evidence. Several examples come to mind, the first being when Moses is sent to lead Israel out of Egypt:

Exodus 4:

1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, Yahweh hath not appeared unto thee.​

After which Yahweh gives him three signs, the rod turning into a snake, his hand turning leprous, and the water turning to blood, so that Israel

Exodus 4:

5 ..may believe that Yahweh God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.​

There are many occasions of signs being asked for and given when one is encountered by a prophet, an angel, or even by Messiah Yahushua Himself:

Matthew 24:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

In which He proceeds to give almost an entire chapter's worth of signs.

And again, His beloved disciple John even tells us:

1 John 4:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.​

and he even tells us how to try them in the rest of the chapter.

Blind faith is not Scriptural. But perhaps we can't always see with our eyes the evidence that is given us.

Praise HE WHO IS forever!

 

[christianforumsuser]

I agree, I would hate to offend God, especially referring to Him as if He was one of the "created gods" that we now have so many of out there, right? That's why it is imperative to know who our Creator God mentioned in the Bible really is, or to have "evidence" of God .. don't you think?

As a man I suppose I can only to claim to interpret and quote some things...saying I understand..but my acts and expressions might display to your perception if I'm closer to Him in a regard to talk about it to the extent of the context it applies
Some are so far out in their own thoughts of where their genealogy went, for whatever cause/reason, they deny with their lips His existence because they can't see what they consider "His existence"
And in His Word there's more than enough evidence to say why we need Him
I really hope He will have His will accomplished to His pleasure and have His children
To have experience first or secondhand some small things in this cold world, or even how boring some days seem without purpose
In everything I hope He soon fills us, but some need humbled and emptied for what they are. Why did they end up that way? There's lots of depths of stories from perspectives, even lies and mistakes of men
And wasn't it He who offended us, or some of us? While He visited and asked how much these little children or mere men who considered themselves such grand figures were following the Law...
Everyone expresses himself eventually. I hope I can go to Him how He intended

 

[Arius]

Hey, I'm liking the thread! You bring up some interesting points.

It's true that we are to seek evidence. Several examples come to mind, the first being when Moses is sent to lead Israel out of Egypt:

Exodus 4:

1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, Yahweh hath not appeared unto thee.​

After which Yahweh gives him three signs, the rod turning into a snake, his hand turning leprous, and the water turning to blood, so that Israel

Exodus 4:

5 ..may believe that Yahweh God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.​

There are many occasions of signs being asked for and given when one is encountered by a prophet, an angel, or even by Messiah Yahushua Himself:

Matthew 24:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

In which He proceeds to give almost an entire chapter's worth of signs.

And again, His beloved disciple John even tells us:

1 John 4:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.​

and he even tells us how to try them in the rest of the chapter.

Blind faith is not Scriptural. But perhaps we can't always see with our eyes the evidence that is given us.

Praise HE WHO IS forever!

Excellent points Brother @Neal of Zebulun, you have strengthened my soul and uplifted my spirit, exactly what I needed because of the unorthodoxy of the subject!

And you are so right that: "we can't always see with our eyes the evidence that is given us." .. that is when we open our 'spiritual eyes'! I think about the hardened criminals who never knew Christ, who were abused as children and turned to drugs and crime as adults, .. they go to prison and start reading the Bible, and wham! Their spirit is awakened and they see Christ as if He was talking to them personally.

I just keep in mind that: "No one has seen God at any time, .. for God is Spirit, and only those in the spirit can worship/know Him!"

This is what many Bible Scholars don't get sometimes, and end up misinterpreting scripture, they rely way too much on their physical eyes, what they read interpreted from a physical/worldly perspective, from definitions of words that over a long time have been altered.

Like for instance Religion, .. or Organized Religion that has established a doctrine that they stick with regarding who God is, who they think Jesus is, how to interpret Revelations and so on. I'm not saying we can understand it all, but when I look at all the Religions in the world, especially the Christian Religion and all the denominations thereof, would they, or even could they accept God as He is revealed in the Bible?

Could a religion even survive by accepting the One True and Only Possible Creator revealed in the Bible? To my surprise, this is the very reason that "Evidence of God" is not required in the Christian Religion, but this dangerous version of "faith" is encouraged; "blind faith".
Sure the Words from the Bible are wonderful, and edifying, but who is God since there are so many out there?
What evidence can we as Believers, as disciples give of His existence? There has to be more than just: "Well, I just believe!" And when you ask them about God, they tell me about some three-in-one 'idea' of God like in the Trinity Doctrine.

For instance this very Debating-Sight, such wonderful and encouraging words coming from everyone, yet they hold an unBiblical man-made Doctrine above the Bible!?

So I sincerely, with the inmost and deepest thoughts of my heart, with all the love for my fellow humans that I can muster ask: What is Greater, our Organized Religion, or the Word of God as revealed in the Bible?

Sadly, the answer is right there in the Forum Rules which spells out, maybe not verbatim but it is made pretty clear that the trinity-gods-Doctrine is the "Foundation of the Christian Religion!"

So what if Jesus repeatedly denied that he was God, The Christians claim he is!

I mean think about it, what if another Christian Denomination started to worship the Fiery Angel that appeared to Moses as God? At least that would be more Biblical than the Trinity-gods, right?

 

[com7fy8]

I was excommunicated for not having enough 'faith' in my Denomination and its Teachers/Pastors/Elders, for they told me 'there is One God, and it's in this Denomination!'"

Even if they are wrong about being the only way, this does not mean that every thing they do and teach is automatically wrong.

There is organization. Our Apostle Paul appointed Timothy to ordain qualified people to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. But our Apostle Peter makes it clear that they are to lead by example >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

The question is, what sort of faith are we talking about?

Our Apostle Paul says, "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6). And he says,

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, God proves Himself to us by sharing His very own love with us, "in our hearts". So, "faith working through love" is not blind, but has us each personally sharing with God Himself in His own love.

 

[Chesterton]

It's weird how "organized" somehow became a bad word.

 

[gadar perets]

Fact: There are thousands of gods, .. but only One who is uncreated.

Can anyone tell me which One that is? How would you "prove" the One True Creator God from amongst all the other gods, many who are creators also?

Yeshua said his Father, Almighty YHWH, is the "only true God" (John 17:3). This is verified throughout the pages of both the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

I don't normally write such long posts, but here goes. He who has eyes to read it, let him read it:

This is what many Bible Scholars don't get sometimes, and end up misinterpreting scripture, they rely way too much on their physical eyes, what they read interpreted from a physical/worldly perspective, from definitions of words that over a long time have been altered.

You're absolutely right on this point. One word that has been altered is "God." I'll show what I mean further along in the post.

What evidence can we as Believers, as disciples give of His existence? There has to be more than just: "Well, I just believe!" And when you ask them about God, they tell me about some three-in-one 'idea' of God like in the Trinity Doctrine.

I think the teaching on the Trinity is wildly misunderstood, even by those who preach it. Again, it relates to the meaning of the word "God." I'll talk about it a little later in the post.

For instance this very Debating-Sight, such wonderful and encouraging words coming from everyone, yet they hold an unBiblical man-made Doctrine above the Bible!?

Well, I wouldn't say it's un-Biblical, and I hope they don't hold it above the Bible itself. You'll notice that in the Statement of Faith, it says that any member who denies "the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ" or those who challenge "Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ" are not allowed in the "Christians Only" areas of the forum.

So when they say we must take into account Paul, then they must mean that their understanding of the Nicene Creed takes into account even these passages:

1 Corinthians 15:

27 For he [the Father] hath put all things under his [Christ's] feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

1 Corinthians 11:

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.​

Keep in mind, the meaning of the word "God" that most people have is wrong, and as we shall see, these two passages in no way deny "the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ."

So I sincerely, with the inmost and deepest thoughts of my heart, with all the love for my fellow humans that I can muster ask: What is Greater, our Organized Religion, or the Word of God as revealed in the Bible?

The Word of God, Christ Himself is greater, just like it says in the above quote from Paul: "all things are put under him," excepting the Father of course.

Sadly, the answer is right there in the Forum Rules which spells out, maybe not verbatim but it is made pretty clear that the trinity-gods-Doctrine is the "Foundation of the Christian Religion!"

So what if Jesus repeatedly denied that he was God, The Christians claim he is!

See, this is a problem that keeps coming up when we have the wrong understanding of the word "God." Let's read John 10:30-36 to know that this is True:

John 10:

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Psalms 82:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.​

You see, if these passages don't make perfect sense, it's because of the incorrect definition of "God."

Let's look at some Hebrew words that are repeatedly translated as "God" in the Old Testament to get a better idea of what it means in context:

Joshua 22:

22 Yahweh God (El) of gods (elohiym), Yahweh God (El) of gods (elohiym)..
​

Genesis 33

20 And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe-Israel (El of elohiym of Israel.)​

Deuteronomy 10:

17 For Yahweh your God (Elohiym) is God (Elohiym) of gods (the elohiym), and Lord of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:​

To cut to the chase, this is essentially saying that Yahweh is the most High "God," just as Paul readily points out in his writings. And of course, he was following what Yahushua Christ Himself teaches:

John 14:

28 ..my Father is greater than I.​

And yet at the same time these passages do not deny the existence of other "gods," because as Yahushua Christ points outs, even we are "elohiym."

For instance, look at these passages in Exodus. Look at what word "judges" is translated from:

Exodus 21:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (elohiym); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.​

Exodus 22:

8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (elohiym), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges (elohiym); and whom the judges (elohiym) shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.​

You'll notice that these are strictly talking about flesh and blood people.

Now at this point, before someone thinks I'm disagreeing with the Nicene Creed in the concept of Oneness (I am NOT) read this with me:

Mark 12:

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:​

Malachi 2:

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God (El) created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?​

Do you see how Malachi says "Have we not all one father?" and then, "the covenant of our fathers?"

He's not suddenly contradicting himself about the Father. And he's not contradicting the rest of the OT when he says "one God/El."

To understand this better, look at what Paul tells us "one" essentially means:

1 Corinthians 12:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit [the Holy Spirit].

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord [Yahushua Christ].

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all [Father Yahweh].​

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.​

14 For the body is not one member, but many.
​

This is the Trinity in a nutshell. And as you have read, we are a part of "God" (that is the most high "God/El" Yahweh), but only through Christ's Body. This is why we are called "elohiym," in the New and Old Testament.

So you can see how that necessarily makes Christ Himself "Elohiym" too, even though the Father is above Him, and He is above us. He in no way denies that he is fully a part of Elohiym.

Look at this site's Statement of Faith again, in the Nicene Creed where it says "ONE God." This is one of two references that are brought up:

Ephesians 4:

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

This is speaking specifically of Yahweh, "the Father Almighty."

And it completely agrees with what Christ Himself prays for the saints:

John 17:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

This is what "One," "Trinity," and "God" really mean, and the Nicene Creed no where disagrees.

The problem is that the New Testament copyists or translators removed Yahweh's Name and replaced it with "God" just like the KJV does, and this leads to confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:

33 ..God [Paul probably said "Yahweh" here] is not the author of confusion..​

And yet most Christians are utterly confused on this Singular topic.

Praise Yahweh, through Yahushua Christ!

 

[Arius]

As a man I suppose I can only to claim to interpret and quote some things...saying I understand..but my acts and expressions might display to your perception if I'm closer to Him in a regard to talk about it to the extent of the context it applies

Yes, many of us can 'act' the part, even sounded out with the outmost deep-felt, sobbing prayers, quoting Scripture (never can go wrong quoting Scripture) .. like on Sunday, but deep down in our heart: "what they can't see throughout the week won't hurt anyone." For decades that's how I lived.

Some are so far out in their own thoughts of where their genealogy went, for whatever cause/reason, they deny with their lips His existence because they can't see what they consider "His existence"

YES, .. that's it, "They can't see 'what they consider' His existence" .. So true. That's what I am asking here, since we all have the Bible, shouldn't we have a universal idea of "His existence"? What's with all the Denominations, right? We are talking about "Bible God" after all.

And in His Word there's more than enough evidence to say why we need Him

Yes there is, I agree!

I really hope He will have His will accomplished to His pleasure and have His children
To have experience first or secondhand some small things in this cold world, or even how boring some days seem without purpose
In everything I hope He soon fills us, but some need humbled and emptied for what they are.

You know, from a lifelong of observation, the 'purpose' seems to be, .. as simple as this may sound, .. but it is "life/living". No matter under what harsh conditions, people still want to live. Something about 'living', and of course that's the message in the Bible, all about "life/living", .. in this case 'forever'!

Why did they end up that way? There's lots of depths of stories from perspectives, even lies and mistakes of men
And wasn't it He who offended us, or some of us? While He visited and asked how much these little children or mere men who considered themselves such grand figures were following the Law...
Everyone expresses himself eventually. I hope I can go to Him how He intended

"How He intended?" .. from what I can understand it would be next to impossible for us to fulfill. From the Scriptures, He intends 'perfection', and nothing less:
Mathew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God bless you!

 

[Arius]

Even if they are wrong about being the only way, this does not mean that every thing they do and teach is automatically wrong.

I agree, .. I was pointing out the 'purpose' of this so called organization/Church. I thought it was to "lead us to God through Christ", .. not "keep us in the Religion at all cost!" .. you know what I mean?

There is organization. Our Apostle Paul appointed Timothy to ordain qualified people to "take care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. But our Apostle Peter makes it clear that they are to lead by example >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

Our Apostle Paul says, "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6). And he says,

I agree 100%. I believe there is a difference between an organized church meeting, where leaders, Elders (as you said above) chosen because of their example-living, to BE an example of living, .. and an Organized Religion where the Minister/Pastor gets his "Divinity-degree" in a School of Divinity, or Trinity Collage. Haven't we read that becoming a Diviner/medium to divining spirits who for now rule from the supernatural realm;

Leviticus 19:26
‘You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor shall you practice divination or soothsaying.
Ezekiel 12:24
For no more shall there be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Ezekiel 13:23
Therefore you shall no longer envision futility nor practice divination; for I will deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

.. an 'abomination' to the Lord our God!

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, God proves Himself to us by sharing His very own love with us, "in our hearts". So, "faith working through love" is not blind, but has us each personally sharing with God Himself in His own love.

"faith working through love" is not blind, but "blind faith working through love" IS.
Mother Teresa was a perfect example of this. While helping the poorest of the poor, she prayed to idols, and proselytized millions to follow in her footsteps, all by her idea of 'faith', through a very genuine love for the poor. I rather die of starvation than be led astray by a 'helping hand'.

God bless you.

 

[Arius]

Yeshua said his Father, Almighty YHWH, is the "only true God" (John 17:3). This is verified throughout the pages of both the Old and New Testaments.

I agree that the 'name' is verified throughout the pages of both the Old and New Testaments, .. but
YHWH, Yahweh, Yeshua (Yahshua) etc. can be anything and anyone, here is an example:

Yahweh The Name OF A Pagan god

What we need is not just a name, but an identity. Just like there are many Yeshua's out there, or Jesus's, and anyone could 'legally' rename themselves Yeshua, or even YHWH, even you could, .. so much for names, right?

For example I can ask you: Who is your God that you love and worship? You can answer: "YHWH" and I could say: There are many versions of YHWH and Yeshua (Yahshua) mentioned in the Bible, which 'version' is yours? In other words, people often miss-identify a person, many serve long prison sentences because of it. This rarely happens when we "know that person", where we have personal relationship with him.

So please tell me: Who is this YHWH and Jeshua to you?
Do you just know the names, or do you know them personally?
If you KNOW them personally, can you define them for me?

Thank you and God bless you my friend.

 

[dlamberth]

There are many versions of YHWH and Yeshua (Yahshua) mentioned in the Bible, which 'version' is yours?

My desire is to not get involved in this discussion other than to say that my version is "The Light of God".

 

[Arius]

I don't normally write such long posts, but here goes. He who has eyes to read it, let him read it:

Thank you dear friend!

You're absolutely right on this point. One word that has been altered is "God." I'll show what I mean further along in the post.

Ancient of Days, Father/Abba, "Most High" and the Hebrew names Elohim, El-Shaddai, Yahweh, Jehovah and Adonai, we know who the Bible is referring to. Just like there are a bunch of names for Jesus; Advocate, Lamb of God, Judge, Lord of lords, Prince of Peace, Bridegroom, King of the Jews, Bright and morning Star, .. and so on, take your pick from any of these, and if you use it in the proper context, I will kno exactly what you are talking about!?

I don't think altering the word YHWH to God is any problem. The problem is the identity of YHWH or God. I could go and change my name to YHWH, wouldn't make me God our Creator, or take God off His throne, .. right?

[quote ="Neal of Zebulun"] I think the teaching on the Trinity is wildly misunderstood, even by those who preach it.[/quote]

Then why preach and teach it? Isn't the Bible clear enough on who God is without introducing a confusing doctrine that even the inventors of it don't understand!? I believe we know who God is, who Jesus is, and who the god of this world is, including who us little gods created in Gods image are? Why throw a wrench in all this, is God the author of confusion?
I think not, but we know who is, right?

[quote ="Neal of Zebulun"]Again, it relates to the meaning of the word "God." I'll talk about it a little later in the post.[/quote]

Yes, every one of the names of both God and His son Jesus Christ I just mentioned above have different meanings, but it does not change 'who' they are. But I will gladly hear you out!

[quote ="Neal of Zebulun"]Well, I wouldn't say it's un-Biblical, and I hope they don't hold it above the Bible itself. You'll notice that in the Statement of Faith, it says that any member who denies "the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ"[/quote]

There you go, because I do deny the "deity" of Jesus Christ, because, .. according to the Bible, it is a blasphemy to refer to the Word of God, the Son of God as a "deity" meaning; god or goddess, as in the Greek theos, includes all the pagan gods.
Pharaohs were 'divine beings, gods', our God mentioned in the Bible is "Holy and Spirit", not divine, or Devine, or any 'supernatural demon'. That's clearly blasphemy, just look up divine/Devine and supernatural in the Bible and see how God feels about those things?

[quote ="Neal of Zebulun"]or those who challenge "Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ" are not allowed in the "Christians Only" areas of the forum.[/quote]

I will defend Paul's Apostleship as I would any Scripture teaching. But because I hold to the Bible/Scriptures on those other strictly Forum Religious rules, I cannot go into the Christian only Forum. Why?
Because those Doctrines are the Foundation of the Christian Religion, and are NOT Biblical. The ONLY reason I would even want to go there is to hopefully open the "spiritual eyes" of some of those wonderful Bible reading fellow citizens who, just as I for most of my life, have been indoctrinated with.

[quote ="Neal of Zebulun"]So when they say we must take into account Paul, then they must mean that their understanding of the Nicene Creed takes into account even these passages:

1Corinthians 15:

27 For he [the Father] hath put all things under his [Christ's] feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

1Corinthians 11:

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.[/quote]

I don't know about the Nicene Creed, I have no need for it. I just go by what I read in the Bible, which is pretty clear to me! In my Discipleship, my faiths foundation is the Bible and the Words of God within it. I don't see Nice mentioned anywhere in there?

* God is Spirit (not a supernatural Devine/demon),
* who resides, or most of His attention is in Heaven (and not in the earths supernatural realm. Look up who reside in earths supernatural realm. God could be in a tent, in an Ark, it doesn't mean God is restricted to those places)
* John 1- explains clearly who Jesus is, who he was, how and why God created all things that were ever created, .. everything.
<to be continued>​

 

[Arius]

<continued>

The Word of God, Christ Himself is greater, just like it says in the above quote from Paul: "all things are put under him," excepting the Father of course.

Yes my dear friend, we are definitely on one mind on that, the Word of God, who is now also Jesus Christ (or whatever other of the about 100 Scriptural reference-names you want to use for Jesus) is above all, .. including all principalities and powers, both in this world and in Heaven.

See, this is a problem that keeps coming up when we have the wrong understanding of the word "God." Let's read John 10:30-36 to know that this is True:

John 10:

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Psalms 82:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.​

You see, if these passages don't make perfect sense, it's because of the incorrect definition of "God."

OK, going just by the verses you quoted above, I don't see any confusion? Not one. Lets go down the list:
* 30 I and my Father are one.

Yes, just as we Disciples of Christ are becoming 'one' with God, through Christ. We will not become God or Christ, but in "one mind, heart and soul" with Him. Those who don't become one with Him, will never enter into His Everlasting Kingdom! There will be no "Religions, or Denominations there ( I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos), for we all shall be one with Him.

* 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
The Jews were evil, blind and leaders of the blind. They understood what Jesus meant, they were actually waiting for their Messiahs appearing right at that time. But remember that; right from the start, from the time of his first ministry where he said: “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” they wanted to kill him, and now they concocted a blasphemy, which he never said. Just as you point it out next here.

Jesus didn't say: "I am God here to die for you, so I can offer a sacrifice for myself, of myself in your behalf" or anything even close to that, .. anywhere in the entire NT, or the Old. And if your Yahweh is made up of many parts (as you say below) then when Joshua/Jesus died, the whole trinity god had to die. Just because my arm falls asleep, or goes gangrene and have to be cut off, don't mean I died.

Yahuwshua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

There you go, Jesus clarified it to them, even quoting scripture how God refers to us as children of God, little gods, and that he never said he was God, but again that he was the one his Father sent into the world, .. "The son of God".

Let's look at some Hebrew words that are repeatedly translated as "God" in the Old Testament to get a better idea of what it means in context:

Joshua 22:

22 Yahweh God (El) of gods (elohiym), Yahweh God (El) of gods (elohiym)..
​

Genesis 33

20 And he erected there an altar, and called it Elelohe-Israel (El of elohiym of Israel.)​

Deuteronomy 10:

17 For Yahweh your God (Elohiym) is God (Elohiym) of gods (the elohiym), and Lord of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:​

To cut to the chase, this is essentially saying that Yahweh is the most High "God," just as Paul readily points out in his writings. And of course, he was following what Yahushua Christ Himself teaches:

John 14:

28 ..my Father is greater than I.​

And yet at the same time these passages do not deny the existence of other "gods," because as Yahushua Christ points outs, even we are "elohiym."

Yes, .. we are little gods, what else could us "created in Gods image" be? He calls us Children of God, so little gods is nothing outstanding but simply logical no?

For instance, look at these passages in Exodus. Look at what word "judges" is translated from:

Exodus 21:

6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (elohiym); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.​

Exodus 22:

8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (elohiym), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.

9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges (elohiym); and whom the judges (elohiym) shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.​

You'll notice that these are strictly talking about flesh and blood people.

Yes, .. we are little gods and little judges, and God is our Father, the Great Judge. He is NOT of flesh but Infinite Spirit.
Deuteronomy 4:11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice.

Now at this point, before someone thinks I'm disagreeing with the Nicene Creed in the concept of Oneness (I am NOT) read this with me:
Malachi 2:

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God (El) created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?​

Do you see how Malachi says "Have we not all one father?" and then, "the covenant of our fathers?"

Yes, "One Father, our Creator God", and when he is talking about the "fathers" he means elders like Abraham, Isaak and Jacob. I don't see where you are going with this?

He's not suddenly contradicting himself about the Father. And he's not contradicting the rest of the OT when he says "one God/El."

To understand this better, look at what Paul tells us "one" essentially means:

1 Corinthians 12:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit [the Holy Spirit].

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord [Yahushua Christ].

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all [Father Yahweh].​

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.​

14 For the body is not one member, but many.
​

This is the Trinity in a nutshell. And as you have read, we are a part of "God" (that is the most high "God/El" Yahweh), but only through Christ's Body. This is why we are called "elohiym," in the New and Old Testament.

So you can see how that necessarily makes Christ Himself "Elohiym" too, even though the Father is above Him, and He is above us. He is no way denies that he is fully a part of Elohiym.

"The body is not one member but many members", which in the spiritual sense makes up the "body of Christ", .. His Church. Don't get carried away with this friend, God is not flesh, nothing of "Infinite/God" is created. God IS, as in "The Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit" who is conscious.

Infinite (not infinity) but Infinite is God, and Infinite is Mind, and when He told Moses to tell His people that "I Am" has sent you, He was acknowledging His consciousness.

Infinite is conscious: "I Am" The reason God takes a created being like the Fiery Angel with Moses is because He has no physical created body, so He, a Mind goes and uses whatever of His creation to communicate with us.
Infinite is Mind, and he put/breathed a little of His Infinite into the dust He made, and it, the dust became conscious, and He called him Adam.

Our mind is Infinite, you can put as many universes as you wish into your mind, and it would still remain Infinite.

You cannot see Infinite, just as you cannot see my mind and I cannot see yours.

Infinite is 'borderless', so you cannot put, or have anything besides or next to Infinite. Since Infinite is borderless, all 'things" created by God is In Him, there is nothing and no one outside of or besides Infinite.

Look at this site's Statement of Faith again, in the Nicene Creed where it says "ONE God." This is one of two references that are brought up:

Ephesians 4:

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

This is speaking specifically of Yahweh, "the Father Almighty."

And it completely agrees with what Christ Himself prays for the saints:

John 17:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

This is what "One," "Trinity," and "God" really mean, and the Nicene Creed no where disagrees.

The problem is that the New Testament copyists or translators removed Yahweh's Name and replaced it with "God" just like the KJV does, and this leads to confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:

33 ..God [Paul probably said "Yahweh" here] is not the author of confusion..​

And yet most Christians are utterly confused on this Singular topic.

Praise Yahweh, through Yahushua Christ!

Who is Yahweh?
A. Yahweh is God.

Who is God?
A. God is really Yahweh, Elohim

End of conversation on names. I can tell you my name, but you will never truly know me by that! So don't think you know God because you picked one of the many names from the Bible that refer to God. That's what Religions do, make God something that fits with their individual religion.

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

Then why preach and teach it?

Why preach and teach the Trinity? Because Christ said to:

Matthew 28:

18 And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

There you go, Jesus clarified it to them, even quoting scripture how God refers to us as children of God, little gods, and that he never said he was God, but again that he was the one his Father sent into the world, .. "The son of God".

Yes, .. we are little gods, what else could us "created in Gods image" be? He calls us Children of God, so little gods is nothing outstanding but simply logical no?

And yet you say that Yahushua Christ, the only begotten Son who is Master over everything under the Father is not Elohiym?

I don't think altering the word YHWH to God is any problem. The problem is the identity of YHWH or God. I could go and change my name to YHWH, wouldn't make me God our Creator, or take God off His throne, .. right?

Why is it that so many people become irrational over the fact that His Name is יהוה? The reason it's wrong to replace His Name is because it goes against His will:

Exodus 3:

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, יהוה God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

Psalms 8:

9 O יהוה our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!​

John 12:

28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.​

Psalms 29:

2 Give unto יהוה the glory due unto his name; worship יהוה in the beauty of holiness.​

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​

To argue it's pronunciation would be one thing, but to completely replace it with a title? That's just wrong.

Seek Yahweh, through Yahushua Messiah, in the Holy Spirit, AMEN.

 

[Arius]

Sorry, I get confused with all the different spellings, in different languages:

Yeshua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ – yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshua" – Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which, through the Latin Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus

So from now on, I will use the English version for both our Infinite Creator; God, and His son; Word, who after coming down from Heaven and born of woman was named; Jesus. We could go into Hungarian if you like: Isten and Jezus, or Serbo-Croatian: Bog i Isus, .. but we are in the US, so let's just go with English, and the English Bible (pick your favorite version, we can work out the details from any version, except any unauthorized version.)

Well, if you know God personally, I assume you are talking about Bible God, correct?
Where did He come from?
How would you 'describe Him'? (Deity, old white man with a beard laying on a cloud, .. ?)
How do you communicate with Him?
If I were to ask you if He had a personal name, what would that be?

Who is Jesus?
Where did he come from? (I don't mean from Heaven to earth)
How would you describe him? (Angel, man, Cherubim, ..?)

God bless you.