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Bible Typo??

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by timewerx, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, 2 Samuel 24:1 is David speaking and not God.

    "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."" (2 Samuel 24:1).

    David said, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

    This is not God saying this.

    Also, how did God move David to say to the others to have a census?

    Did God push David by doing a miracle in order to take a census? No.
    We get the details of what happened by looking at 1 Chronicles 21:5.
    God used the devil to move David to take a census.
    Granted, God was not forcing David to take a census here.
    The choice was still ultimately up to David.
    When David was being moved, or incited, or enticed, it is talking about how David was being tempted by the devil.

    So again, there is no contradiction (Unless the reader wants to see one).

    My suggestion:

    Believe God's Word is perfect and without error. Do not try to correct God's Word but let God's Word correct you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  2. Theo Book

    Theo Book Member Supporter

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  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The order was to take a census. The sin was inflating the results.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    That is what was being counted in both passages.
     
  5. FatalHeart

    FatalHeart Wisdom's Associate

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    It's not really that big of a deal because it's obviously both. Satan and God were involved and coming from different places. It's like the verses in Matthew and Luke about the donkey and John showing that both were correct, but only mentioned one type of donkey. Just because a perspective is incomplete doesn't make it wrong and just because another perspective comes along that says something different doesn't mean the first perspective is wrong either. They can both be right, both different details of the same thing.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Okay. Let’s read it.

    “And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.” (2 Samuel 24:9).

    “And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.” (1 Chronicles 21:5).​
    ‭‭
    1. Israel in 2 Samuel 24:9 is talking about VALIANT men who drew sword.
    Israel in 1 Chronicles 21:5 is talking about ALL of those who drew sword.
    In other words, there is a difference between VALIANT men who drew sword vs. ALL men who drew sword.

    2. Judah in 2 Samuel 24:9 is talking about just men of Judah generally speaking.
    Judah in 1 Chronicles 21:5 is talking about those men who DREW THE SWORD.
    In other words, there is a difference between men of Judah vs. men who drew sword.

    That is why the numbers are different.
    It is not talking about two different events.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Adding valiant isn't enough to show it's the same event. Unless you can concretely show that valiant men with swords is definitely different than men with swords then I take the two differing reasons for the consensus (God in one, Satan in the other) and the different numbers as being evidence of two times a consensus was ordered by God. Perhaps he expected the second one to not be inflated again? I also posted other differences...Judah and Benjamin not being mentioned in one. There's more differences that I didn't point out as well.
     
  8. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

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    I like as some have referred to, Job. But if we think of Job, we think of God testing us. When we fail the test, it is because the devil tempted us and we succombed to his way. The test came from God, the temptation came from Satan. When we fail a test, it often results in God's anger/punishment/rebuke such that we learn from our mistakes.
     
  9. AFrazier

    AFrazier Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I know that this is not going to be exactly helpful, except in principle. But I once did a word study on these two passages because of what looked like a contradiction. It was my plan and intent to use them to demonstrate an inconsistency to someone else. However, after doing the word study, I concluded, to my own personal dissatisfaction at the time, that they said essentially the same thing. The contradiction exists more in the translation than it does in the original.

    Do the word study of the full sentences. I honestly don't remember how I concluded what I concluded, but I promise that you'll find the two passages are consistent with each other.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Satan stood up against Israel accusing the nation; and God saw that satan's accusations very likely had a foundation in reality; so His justice (and anger at the possibility of sin (which was the accusation of the devil)) required that He allow satan to incite David to number Israel, which when David did so, proved the devil's accusation to be true.

    As in the case with Job, when the devil was behind all that Job went through; and yet all of Job's friends at the end of his trial comforted him over all the pain and suffering that the Lord had put him through.

    It appears to me to be a matter of perspective. Sometimes all of the details were not given to certain characters in the Bible or even the human authors of it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I would say that it is a sin to read your Bible with the purpose of looking for contradictions. People who have found them only prove that Matthew 7:7-8 holds true even when you are looking for the wrong thing. Also, there is always a reconciliation if you look for that instead.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My point for bringing up the differences of the valiant men was to show that they are talking about different people groups to offer an explanation on the differences in numbers. The point about the valiant men was showing how to reconcile the two different accounts between 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21.

    As for 2 Samuel 24, and 1 Chronicles 21 being the same event:

    Well, we know these two chapters are talking about the same event because:

    #1. David told Joab to number the people of Israel (2 Samuel 24:1) (1 Chronicles 21:2).

    #2. Joab gave the sum total of the number of people unto David (2 Samuel 24:9) (1 Chronicles 21:5).

    #3. David said he sinned greatly before the Lord as a result of his census taking (2 Samuel 24:10) (1 Chronicles 21:8).

    #4. God communicates to the prophet Gad so as to tell David in offering him a choice out of three types of possible punishments (as a result of his sin) (2 Samuel 24:11-13) (1 Chronicles 21:9-12).

    #5. Pestilence befalls Israel and 70,000 men die (2 Samuel 24:15) (1 Chronicles 21:14).

    #6. When the angel of the Lord was about to destroy Jerusalem, God had changed His mind about destroying them and David confessed of his sin again unto the Lord when he had seen the angel that smote the people (2 Samuel 24:16-17) (1 Chronicles 21:15-17).​

    There is more to the story that line up between these two chapters, but hopefully this should suffice to show you it is the same event being described between 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I understand but I feel a soldier with a sword, willing to fight for Israel is a valiant man so the word isn't needed. I mean, is there a non-valiant man with a sword who equally is ready to defend and fight?
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It doesn't matter what you feel is valiant or not, the Bible is describing a unique different people groups by explaining these kinds of different details (like using the word "valiant" to differentiate between the other people groups). This is how I reconcile the discrepancies in numbers and it is totally logical. If you disagree, then that is your choice (of course). But it makes perfect sense to me.

    In fact, in history: It is not uncommon for kings to tell their military commanders to take with them on special missions those men who are most valiant or courageous (so that the mission can succeed). For not all men are the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Of course it matters. You haven't shown a valid difference. All who are willing to fight for something means they are valiant, whether the word is used or not.

    I reject the valiant vs. non-valiant theory because it doesn't make any sense. Plus, there are other differences in the accounts. The better idea is there these are two different accounts, which explains the difference in numbers and why Judah and Benjamin are mentioned, then not mentioned in the other...it also makes sense that God would test them once, see them falsify the numbers and later test them again to see if they would avoid lying...they failed the second time by lying again.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If you seriously do not get it, then I cannot help you. I explained it in the best way I know how. So lets agree to disagree (if you do not accept my explanation).

    My suggestion is to pray about it. For it looks like you still have work to reconcile this passage. Personally, I have no problems with these two chapters working together.

    Anyways, may the Lord bless you in the mean time until you find the answer one day.

    Peace and love to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Same to you.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have no problems with these two chapters working together as one event. I feel very comfortable in what they both say. If God desires me to see something different here, I believe He will show me in time. For the Lord has corrected my thinking on other explanations on supposed contradictions I have ran into before.

    For God is good.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I was already able to infer that.
     
  20. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Supporter

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    It can be used generically but when speaking of a certain individual it is prefaced with 'the' in the Hebrew, 'ha'.

    The transliteration however is 'satan', not shaytan. In Hebrew it is שָׂטָן

    You will notice the 'dot' on the left side of the shin , when it is there is is pronounce without the 'h' sound. When it is on the right side, it is pronounced with the 'sh' sound.

    In the case of 1 Kings 11:14 it reads

    וַיָּקֶם יְהוָה שָׂטָן לִשְׁלֹמֹה, אֵת הֲדַד הָאֲדֹמִי: מִזֶּרַע הַמֶּלֶךְ הוּא, בֶּאֱדוֹם

    But in Job 1 we read:

    6 Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    The Hebrew is this:

    וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם--וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל-יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם-הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם.

    The word שָׂטָן is prefaced with a hey or hei הַ

    Therefore it says, 'the Adversary also came with them' הַשָּׂטָן

    In the Chronicles 1:21 passage it is 'adversary', not THE adversary.
    וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן


    1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

    In 2 Samuel 24:1

    1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them, saying: 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'


    It is not changing who moved David, either Satan or the LORD, but it's just saying that the LORD used an Adversary to put the idea in Davids head to do a census.
     
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