Bible Translations

DeaconDean

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I never thought I would see the day,that Christians consider people who rely on the King James Bible part of a cult.
That's the only reason I posted anything,not to debate Bibles anymore.

:sigh:

Brother,

KJVOnlyism is defined as:

"The King James Only movement is advocacy by a loosely associated group of Christians, that the King James Version of the Bible is superior to other English translations, and that other versions, especially those based on Westcott and Hort's revision of the text of the Greek Testament, are not to be trusted and are based on corrupted manuscripts. Adherents of the movement believe that the KJV is the last and best of a series of translations based on what they consider the most reliable of Greek New Testament manuscripts, the Textus Receptus or Majority Text and most new translations of the Bible are inferior to the King James, and are not as true to the original text. They disapprove of the versions which use the minority text known as the Alexandrian Text or are based upon it. King James Only believers would say that the Alexandrian texts contain the accumulated corruptions of different scribes over many years, in a manner that the Aaronic priests and Masoretes would never have tolerated when making copies of the Scriptures. They see the King James Version as the greatest English translation ever produced, needing no further enhancements."

Source

Let us not forget that the Johannine Comma (i.e.: 1 John 5:7-8) was not an issue until 1520. WHen questioned about it, Erasmus somehow defended not including it, this is until a codex somehow showed up that included it. No Greek MS contains this prior to the 16th century.

Source

"When Erasmus was informed that the passage had been found in Codex 61, a 16th century manuscript then in England, he included it, though he notes in his Annotationes that he did not believe the Comma was genuine.*"

Erasmus and the Textus Receptus, William Combs, Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal, Spring 1996, p.50; n.70

And we also know the King James translators used Theodore Beza's Codex for the book of Acts. So considering that, if the King James translators are correct, Acts 2:38 indeed teachs that to have your sins washed away, its not the blood but water that cleanses.

I can also show that as many as 18 scribes work on Beza's Codex.

SCRIBAL HABITS IN CODEX SINAITICUS, VATICANUS, EPHRAEMI, BEZAE, AND WASHINGTONIANUS IN THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW, GREGORY SCOTT PAULSON, A DISSERTATION SUBMITTED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH, NEW COLLEGE, IN CANDIDACY FOR THE DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY, EDINBURGH, UK, 2013, CHAPTER 5, p106

There are some KJVOnlyists that go so far as to say that if you don't use, read, study, teah, etc, from the KJV, your not saved. Which in turn, elevates the KJV to an idol of sorts. To be worshipped.

So when I say:

"KJVOnlyism elevates the King James Version to a level it should not be."

It is not said lightly.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Dave-W

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I never thought I would see the day,that Christians consider people who rely on the King James Bible part of a cult.
Not "rely on;" but "idolize." There is a difference.
 
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now faith

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:sigh:

Brother,

KJVOnlyism is defined as:

"The King James Only movement is advocacy by a loosely associated group of Christians, that the King James Version of the Bible is superior to other English translations, and that other versions, especially those based on Westcott and Hort's revision of the text of the Greek Testament, are not to be trusted and are based on corrupted manuscripts. Adherents of the movement believe that the KJV is the last and best of a series of translations based on what they consider the most reliable of Greek New Testament manuscripts, the Textus Receptus or Majority Text and most new translations of the Bible are inferior to the King James, and are not as true to the original text. They disapprove of the versions which use the minority text known as the Alexandrian Text or are based upon it. King James Only believers would say that the Alexandrian texts contain the accumulated corruptions of different scribes over many years, in a manner that the Aaronic priests and Masoretes would never have tolerated when making copies of the Scriptures. They see the King James Version as the greatest English translation ever produced, needing no further enhancements."

Source

Let us not forget that the Johannine Comma (i.e.: 1 John 5:7-8) was not an issue until 1520. WHen questioned about it, Erasmus somehow defended not including it, this is until a codex somehow showed up that included it. No Greek MS contains this prior to the 16th century.

Source

"When Erasmus was informed that the passage had been found in Codex 61, a 16th century manuscript then in England, he included it, though he notes in his Annotationes that he did not believe the Comma was genuine.*"

Erasmus and the Textus Receptus, William Combs, Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal, Spring 1996, p.50; n.70

And we also know the King James translators used Theodore Beza's Codex for the book of Acts. So considering that, if the King James translators are correct, Acts 2:38 indeed teachs that to have your sins washed away, its not the blood but water that cleanses.

I can also show that as many as 18 scribes work on Beza's Codex.

SCRIBAL HABITS IN CODEX SINAITICUS, VATICANUS, EPHRAEMI, BEZAE, AND WASHINGTONIANUS IN THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW, GREGORY SCOTT PAULSON, A DISSERTATION SUBMITTED TO THE UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH, NEW COLLEGE, IN CANDIDACY FOR THE DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY, EDINBURGH, UK, 2013, CHAPTER 5, p106

There are some KJVOnlyists that go so far as to say that if you don't use, read, study, teah, etc, from the KJV, your not saved. Which in turn, elevates the KJV to an idol of sorts. To be worshipped.

So when I say:

"KJVOnlyism elevates the King James Version to a level it should not be."

It is not said lightly.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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This Book of Acts translation was brought to the public eye by John MacArthur back in the 80s.
Since He has amended his teaching.
The issiue I personally have with the Critical text is the many deletions from the Schripture.
I suppose being a translation the translator can leave out what he deems unnecessary.
The divine nature of Christ is changed in many translations.
I am not debating nor condemning people but I will provide one example out of many:

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
This is from the N.I.V ,as well others say the same thing.
They use the term God comanded.
Here is the King James:
Hebrews: 11. 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Now both versions state the same thing in John 1
KJV
John: 1. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

NIV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

The continuity of the NIV is compromised by the self contradiction in agreement in John and
Out of sorts in Hebrews.
There exist 200 deletions from the King James in the NIV.
But I stopped by for fellowship, and the cult comment seemed a bit troubling.
God Bless

Here again, you missed the point.

KJVOnlyist insist that the KJV is the "preserved word of God".

Explain to me, how is it the KJV is the "preserved word of God"? Did God's word not exist in say the "Geneva Bible"? Did it not exist in the "Bishops Bible"? Did God not preserve His word in any bible prior to the AKJV?

I have even been in arguments here on the forums with KJVO people who use:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
" -1 Cor. 13:10 KJV

To say the KJV is not only the "preserved word of God", but also that is the "perfect word of God".

Let me say this, concerning historical Christian dogmas, none hinge, none stand or fall on any of the disputed texts.

Is the KJV "perfect"? NO!

I'll admit that it's probably at worst 97.9% and 99.5% correct. If it is not 100%, it is not perfect.

The Jack Daniels company sells its liquor at 90 proof. That means it contains 45% alcohol. It would be against the law for them to advertise and sell their liquor 200 proof. That would mean it was 100% alcohol.

Same principle applies to the scripture. If it is not 100%, it is not perfect! The only "perfect" I know of was the Lord Jesus Christ.

The reason why I brought up the Codex Bezae issue was because of not only was it used for the KJV, but because in one verse in chapter 2, will forever separate Catholics and Baptists.

Catholicism says you are baptized to have your sins washed away.

Baptists say you are baptized because your sins have been washed away.

Even your "NIV" and the KJV, as rendered, agrees with Catholicism.

"Repent and be baptized,every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." -Acts 2:38 (NIV)

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," -Acts 2:38 (AKJV)

Where the real issue come into play is in the Greek word rendered "for" in this verse. As the King James translators rendered it, Acts 2:38 says: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (eis-in order to) the remission of sins.

"Πέτρος δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς, Μετανοήσατε, [φησίν,] καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ὑμῶν, καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος: " -Acts 2:38 (GNT)

However, eis is one of those words that has several different meanings. In Matthew we see:

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." -Matt. 12:41 (AKJV)

"ἄνδρες Νινευῖται ἀναστήσονται ἐν τῇ κρίσει μετὰ τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης καὶ κατακρινοῦσιν αὐτήν: ὅτι μετενόησαν εἰς τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ, καὶ ἰδοὺ πλεῖον Ἰωνᾶ ὧδε. " -Mt. 12:41 (GNT)

The same Greek word is used here (eis) except the King James translators rendered it "at". A better rendering would have been "because of". B. H. Carroll points this out extremely well. (The Theory of Baptismal Regeneration, B.H. Carroll)

Nineveh did not repent (eis) for/in order to have Jonah preach, they repented (eis) because of the preaching of Jonah.

This is one instance where the KJV is wrong, least wise from a rendering point.

And Paul agrees in his picture what baptism really symbolizes:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" -Rom. 6:3-5 (KJV)

Baptism is symbolic of us dying with Him, being buried with Him, and being raised with Him. Jesus was never baptized "for" (eis) any remission of sin.

Here is where I say Fundamentalists got it right:

"The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts." 1878 Niagara Creed, Point 1.

KJVOnlyists even argue the "verbal, plenary inspiration" applies to the King James translators. And when you get to this point, you definitely have elevated the KJV to a place it should not be.

Is the KJV perfect? No, the original preface to the AKJV admits this.

Is the KJV the "preserved word of God"? No.

Oh well, I guess we'll not see eye-to-eye.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Dave-W

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What should we Idolize if we cannot trust God's Word?
Go read the first of the Ten Commandments.
Go read the first commandment for Gentile believers in Acts 15.

No gods before ME. No idols.

We are not to idolize anyone or anything. PERIOD.
 
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DeaconDean

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Go read the first of the Ten Commandments.
Go read the first commandment for Gentile believers in Acts 15.

No gods before ME. No idols.

We are not to idolize anyone or anything. PERIOD.

Funny, I had that same exact same answer but deleted it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Dave-W

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KJVOnlyist insist that the KJV is the "preserved word of God".
I think the ONLY version that has even a snowball's chance of saying that is the most ancient of the Peshita manuscripts written in first century Aramaic, not Greek.

For more information on that I suggest that you read the Introduction section of George Lamsa's New Testament translation. He goes into great detail on the history of the various Aramaic versions, and why he used manuscripts that pre-date the TR and the Syriac by 3 centuries.
 
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now faith

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I think the ONLY version that has even a snowball's chance of saying that is the most ancient of the Peshita manuscripts written in first century Aramaic, not Greek.

For more information on that I suggest that you read the Introduction section of George Lamsa's New Testament translation. He goes into great detail on the history of the various Aramaic versions, and why he used manuscripts that pre-date the TR and the Syriac by 3 centuries.
 
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Dave-W

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religon is demonic
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Demonic????
 
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TaylorSexton

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...denominations are demonic...

Do you have Scripture to support this?

Everyone belongs to a denomination. That the group of which one claims membership does not have a website or a headquarters does not mean that they do not belong to a denomination.

Furthermore, denominations, while certainly not ideal, are necessary is this fallen world. We are called to be separate from error. For example, Unitarians and Trinitarians simply cannot have fellowship, not should they. Do denominations form over peripheral issues? Sure. However, to say that denominations should not be, and that everyone who claims the name of Christ (which would include many, many false teachers) should be unified in body is to cause Christianity to be meaningless.

Rather, we are instructed to "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17). In other words, mark out false doctrine, and separate from the people that teach it. Hence, denominations.
 
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OzSpen

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Legalism is demonic,religon is demonic denominations are demonic
Go back to Rome where it all belongs

Seems as though you are reading a different Bible to mine. James 1:26-27 (NIV) states:

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.​

Therefore there is 'religion' that God accepts. It is NOT demonic. It is 'pure and faultless'.

I'll stick with what the Bible states on religion that God our Father accepts. I will not be persuaded by your presuppositions that you've dumped on us with your assertion here.

Oz
 
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