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Bible Myth #3 We are all sinners

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by Peter J Barban, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. unbelievable1

    unbelievable1 Member

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    God created what was good
    We didnt remain that way

    It's the reason why Christ came into the world

    Christ would tell us "There is none good but God"

    Try declaring our goodness and righteousness apart from the one who came into the world to do for man what man could not do for himself:

    Wash where God sees
     
  2. Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

    Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 Active Member

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    I actually learned today that law must have ended , because insteed of Levitical priesthood which was untill John the Baptist ( Luke 16:16) we now have King which is High Priest also - Jesus Christ himself , he was not of tribe of Levitic so law must have ended before he died for us ( Hebrews 4:14-16).
     
  3. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    what i read from this post seems true to me, or at least according as i understand it, however, i don't dare judge irreligious and non-occult people for not officiating/not performing sacramental actions

    Blessings
     
  4. unbelievable1

    unbelievable1 Member

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    I don't know where you got that from my post.
     
  5. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    what was got(ten) from your post?!

    Blessings
     
  6. unbelievable1

    unbelievable1 Member

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    Not that I was judging those outside the body

    But apparently that's what you got(ten) from it
     
  7. Peter J Barban

    Peter J Barban Well-Known Member

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    Did you know that the New Testament calls believers saints, or holy ones, 67 times.

    Did you also know that the New Testament calls believers sinners 0 times.

    According to the Bible, Christians are saints, not sinners. Saints can and do sin, but that does not make them sinners in the Bible.
     
  8. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    i just said/clarified that (just in case), i didn't accuse/judge you

    Blessings
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    People are born into a Sin condition just as a fish is born wet.
    There is none who are dry, no not one.

    Unless of course you are in a Garden and God is walking beside you.
    Then you are sinless. For that time.
     
  10. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    not exactly

    according to the words of the Lord Jesus Christ every human is born sinless:

    Mark 10:13-16 (NASB) "they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.” And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them."

    every human is born sinless, which is why no person is guilty of sin from their birth, but some people became sinful because of the power of the wicked one, and the true God is the Savior:

    John 9:1-7 (NLT) "As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. “Rabbi,” his disciples asked him, “why was this man born blind? Was it because of his own sins or his parents’ sins?” “It was not because of his sins or his parents’ sins,” Jesus answered. “This happened so the power of God could be seen in him. We must quickly carry out the tasks assigned us by the one who sent us. The night is coming, and then no one can work. But while I am here in the world, I am the light of the world.” Then he spit on the ground, made mud with the saliva, and spread the mud over the blind man’s eyes. He told him, “Go wash yourself in the pool of Siloam” (Siloam means “sent”). So the man went and washed and came back seeing!"

    and because sin and death come through people committing spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness (Romans 5:12-14), He says woe to the spiritual offenders:

    Matthew 18:1-14 (NASB) "At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. “If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. [“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.] “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? “If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

    every sinner was a sinless child in the beginning of their life, but some people became sinners by converting to heretical/idolatrous religions, which is why Jesus says it is better for such a person to forsake the idolatrous/heretical practices and theories (Matthew 18:8-9)

    the "Garden of Eden" is the very Grace in which every human is born, but some people fell from (that) Grace by beginning and continuing to sin

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The message is that "Permit the children to come to Me" people must trust God just like little children trust in others " whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

    The concept of man being sinless is not even possible.

    24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Even children are not allowed back in.

     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    This has nothing to do with sinless babies.
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    No even in the ballpark:

    Psalm 51:5
    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Romans 5:12
    Therefore, just as
    sin came into the world
    through
    one man
    ,
    and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

    1 John 1:8-10

    If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Romans 3:23
    For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    This says nothing about being born sinless. It is about
    you need to be childlike and loose your ego before God.
    I would think such an important idea would have more
    than a shadow of support?

    Ecclesiastes 7:20
    Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

    John 3:3
    Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly,
    I say to you, unless one is
    born
    again
    he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    Romans 5
    8 But God proves His love for us in this:
    While we were still sinners,
    Christ died for us. (But not for children?)
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  15. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    have you ever had children?! - what you preach here is just a betrayal; Jesus says categorically that the Kingdom of God belongs to the children and adult people that are pure in heart like the children (Mark 10:13-16), and everyone who exchanges the perfect truth for a lie is a traitor betraying their neighbor/brother (Romans 1:22-25); according to people like you no one will inherit abundant and eternal life, because all people and souls are sinners (as if everything the true God created is unclean of itself?! - Romans 14:14-20, and as if He is guilty of everything He ever did?! - 1 Timothy 4:1-5), as if you never read from the Bible that there had also been righteous/holy people that worked for overall salvation and have been resurrected and taken up in glory, i.e. serving the true God is a matter of working for overall salvation to abundant and eternal life in Him, including in His Son Jesus Christ, while condemning others is just a satanic deed/work, so some people work only for salvation, while others work for non-salvation and destruction for many, and why?!?!, who benefits from that?!, who are the sons of salvation and who are the sons of destruction ultimately?!

    so if, God forbid, you are very sick and need a physician/doctor to treat/heal you, and no matter how many hospitals/clinics you visit, everywhere doctors/physicians tell you that they treat/cure only insiders, and not outsiders, i.e. that doctors treat/cure only doctors and important people such as politicians, how will you react to that?!, especially if, God forbid, your beloved person needs urgent treatment/cure?!, so everything God made made it for the common good (1 Corinthians 12:7), or why did Jesus Christ drive clerics out of the temple?!, because they performed clergy services only against payment and if there was a poor person that had no money to pay them, they simply didn't perform any service for them, and on top of that the clergy services they offered were quite esoteric/occult rather than only holy (as the services of those that are mentioned in Acts 19:13-16), and this is called "unrighteousness/iniquity" in the Bible, because what is the meaning of the word "equality"?! - after all, the word "iniquity" is actually another word for "inequality"; at the very least you know that if many people have a medical support for their families, but you don't —— for yours, you will be inclined to think and say that such a thing is not fair; so the Bible is not a book only for scanners, but the Word that is recorded in it is just a "seed"(outline/draft), and there is a need for deep insight on the part of those who read it, which is possible through true faith in the One Who is really the true Lord God (the seed must be cultivated, IOW, the outline must be developed)

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  16. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    Jesus categorically says that it is just not possible that any newborn baby be sinful from birth, because in order that it be possible for a person to sin, they must first be born and only then they will be able to sin, or how could an unborn person sin when they have not yet been born?!; also, it is not possible that an unborn baby be guilty of his/her parents' sins, at least because he/she has not yet participated in their sins, for in order that it be possible for a person to participate in their parents' sins, he/she must first be born and only then he/she will be able to participate in sins of their parents - this is exactly what Jesus says in John 9:3 (the matter at hand is the fact that no person is born sinful/a sinner)

    Blessings
     
  17. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    you don't understand Scripture, there are biblical words and expressions whose meanings can't be found anywhere in this world, nor in the Strong's lexicon, because they are revealed only through true faith (2 Peter 3:15-16, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16)

    in Psalm 51:5 the author confesses that he was spiritually born in iniquity and sin, because the religion he followed(his mother) turned out to be more or less unclean/heretical, as in the case of the jews, scribes and pharisees that Jesus denounced, because that jews' religion was full of heresies

    in Romans 5:12-14 St Paul says that there had been a whole generation of people that committed spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness since the day of the Fall (the expression "one man" just indicates the typical image of each of them), and that sin and death entered into and settled down in the world through them; he says that many people had been seized by the system of (spiritual) unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness - some of them as its servants, others as its victims (Romans 5:14) - here is the same passage with inserted explanations (in the parentheses):

    Romans 5:12-14 (KJV) "by one man(also: through the generation of the unrighteous spiritual workers/servants) sin(i.e. the devil as well as the system of spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness, a.k.a. the kingdom of the evil one) entered into the world, and death(i.e. and the (spirit of) deterioration) by sin; and so death passed upon all men(i.e. and so deterioration affected many humans), for that all have sinned(i.e. because many were seized by the system of (spiritual) unrighteousness/wickedness - some as its servants, others as its victims): For until the law sin was in the world(i.e. because the "darkness" was in the universe even before the nascence of human spirituality/religiosity): but sin is not imputed when there is no law(i.e. but there is no sin where there is no spiritual unrighteousness/wickedness). Nevertheless death(i.e. the deterioration) reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(i.e. even over people that had not committed spiritual lawlessness/wickedness)"

    in 1 John 1 St John says that humans sin if they practice the faith according to their own mind, not according to the perfect truth of the true God, and from that perspective if some people do it but claim that they don't sin, they lie... - here is the same passage with explanations:

    1 John 1:1-10 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say(i.e. but if we sin and say) that we have no sin(i.e. or if we, juxtaposing God with men, say that not humans are sinful), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If(i.e. but if in such circumstances) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If(i.e. but if in such circumstances) we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar(IOW, we thus make Him out to be guilty of sin), and his word is not in us."

    in Romans 3:9-20 St Paul says that the religious people are not better than the irreligious and non-occult ones only because they are religious, which is why he says in the 19th verse that whatever condemnation the written law of Moses and other biblical prophets defines it condemns people that are under the law i.e. the religious ones that sin - as he says in the previous chapter:

    Romans 2:17-27 "Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the law, and make your boast of God, And know his will, and approve the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which have the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? you that preach a man should not steal, do you steal? You that say a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you that abhor idols, do you commit sacrilege? You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?"

    the irreligious and non-occult people may be under the law mostly as victims of the system of spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness - there is no other way

    in 2 Corinthians 5:17 St Paul doesn't mean that a person can become and be a new creature only if they are religious, because Christ is Christ of all souls in the infinite universe, regardless of whether they are religious or irreligious:

    Romans 3:21-31 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and on all them that believe(i.e. that are faithful at least to good, because Jesus' sacrifice saves them): for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God(i.e. because the system of human(666) spirituality/religiosity brings only sin and death to all); Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No: but by the law of faith(i.e. the law at least of faithfulness, especially to overall salvation). Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews(i.e. religious people) only? is he not also of the Gentiles(i.e. a God of the irreligious and non-occult people)? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith(i.e. the righteous religious worshipers due to their righteous religious faith), and uncircumcision through faith(i.e. and the irreligious and non-occult people at least by believing in or being faithful to save them when for one reason or another they themselves cannot practice the faith). Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law."

    Blessings
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  18. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    are you claiming that the true God hasn't made people be born sinless?!, is He guilty of their sins?!, because if He hasn't made them be born sinless and each of them is born sinful, then each of them would be able to judge God for not making them be born sinless, because each of them would have the full ground to do it

    in Ecclesiastes 7:20 Solomon means that if any person is spiritual/religious according to their mind, then such a person is certainly sinful, because only the faith of the Lord or the faith that is according to the God's righteousness is sinless, which is why he says "on earth", which according to the biblical terminology means "based not on the Kingdom of God"

    in John 3:3, "born again" means a person that has the righteousness of God to work for overall salvation in Him, because the "Kingdom of God" in that case is the so-called "third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) - there is a difference between Saviors and ordinary users, because some people are Saviors even like Jesus Himself, while others have been users rather than Saviors

    why do you think St Paul means only religious people in Romans 5:8, by saying "us"?!, we all are humans, regardlles of whether religious or irreligious - this is precisely what he means by "us" - remember what Christ says in Matthew 5:43-48, i paraphrase here: be good to/take good care of all people just as your Heavenly Father causes there to be Grace not only in the lives of good people but also in the lives of the bad ones, and causes there to be purification not only for religious people but also for the irreligious ones, be so perfect in love (as He loves all)

    Blessings
     
  19. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    No people are born sinless. We are born into a world where
    we are not in constant communion with God all all times like
    in Paradise or Heaven.

    We are born into a sin condition just as a fish is born wet.
    None are dry, no not one.


    I can't speak to your conclusion that we can judge God
    and hold Him responsible for our Sins and it's His fault.
    That is a poor conclusion.
     
  20. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    "SINNERS" : DEFINED!

    Psalm 1:1 (ALL NASB)
    How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
    Nor stand in the path of sinners,
    Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!

    of sinners...Hebrew 2400...chatta'...
    III.exposed to condemnation, reckoned as offenders
    a criminal, or ONE accounted guilty:—offender, sinful

    Matthew 9:10-11,13
    Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples,
    “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?”...
    “But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE [fn]COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,'
    for I did not come to CALL the righteous, but sinners.”

    sinners...Greek 268...hamartōlos...I.devoted to sin...A.not free from sin...sinful

    sinner (NOUN)= DICTIONARY
    a PERSON who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts.
    synonyms: wrongdoer · evildoer · transgressor · miscreant · offender · criminal · trespasser

    SINNER = ONE WHO SINS!...before or after salvation!

    Psalm 25:18
    Look upon my affliction and my trouble, And forgive all my sins.

    BELIEVERS receive forgiveness of sins as a benefit of salvation.
    UN-BELIEVERS DO NOT!


    Acts 10:43
    Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

    ROMANS 3:
    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested,
    being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;
    for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned (ARE SINNERS!) and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.

    1 Timothy 1:15...a BELIEVER!
    It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,
    among whom I am foremost of all.

    1 John 1...For BELIEVERS only!
    5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
    7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
    we have FELLOWSHIP with "one another",(BELIEVERS)
    >>>and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.<<<
    8 If we say that we have no sin (AFTER SALVATION),
    we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us
    .
    >>>9 If we CONFESS (agree with God about) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.<<<
    10 If we say that we have not sinned (AFTER SALVATION), we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
     
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