Bible Israel Controversy

[Temp9]

I cannot post links due to a low post count. However, if you go to YouTube.com and search "Post-Trib Moment #49 The Nation of Israel" and also "Why Israel Became a Nation in 1948," both by uploader sanderson1611 you'll see the two short videos that I'd like to link to.

Is what Pastor Anderson says in those two short videos true in terms of being supported by the Bible? Should Christians not support modern-day Israel? If so, why? Just trying to learn.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I cannot post links due to a low post count. However, if you go to YouTube.com and search "Post-Trib Moment #49 The Nation of Israel" and also "Why Israel Became a Nation in 1948," both by uploader sanderson1611 you'll see the two short videos that I'd like to link to.

Is what Pastor Anderson says in those two short videos true in terms of being supported by the Bible? Should Christians not support modern-day Israel? If so, why? Just trying to learn.

My first recommendation is not to watch any videos by Steven Anderson, besides being a crackpot he's on record of saying, explicitly, that the KJV Bible is itself God because of a very, very, very wackadoodle interpretation of John ch. 1. And when I say he said the KJV is God, I mean he picked up his KJV lifted it up in the air and said, "this is God" "Behold your God".

So unless one is watching his videos for their entertainment value because of how cringeworthy they are, I'd say stay way way way clear from them.

Dispensationalists will say that Christians should support the modern nation of Israel out of a belief that the creation of Israel in 1948 fulfills divine prophecy.

It's basically a unique belief among Dispensationalists.

Most Christians aren't Dispensationalists, and most of Christianity has no particular opinion about Israel other than that it's a nation that exists in the world, like Canada, the United States, Mexico, the UK, Spain, or Cambodia. And many, if not most, Christians feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians, many of whom are Christians themselves, and as such are usually caught in the crossfire between Israeli militarism on the one side and some Palestinian extremists on the other. Churches have been vandalized by Israeli ultra-nationalists, Christians have been forced out of their homes--homes and land that have been in the family for generations--by forced Israeli settling of Palestinian land. So many Christians, myself included, while having no particular opinion about Israel itself as a nation are very, very concerned and upset with the particular actions undertaken by the Israeli government and military against the Palestinian people--and we would like to see real peace in the land. The Christians of Palestine include the oldest Christian communities in the world, the Palestinians themselves often being descendents of the earliest Christians in the world--Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans who have dwelt in the land since the time of Christ. As well as being the location for holy sites such as the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[football5680]

I cannot post links due to a low post count. However, if you go to YouTube.com and search "Post-Trib Moment #49 The Nation of Israel" and also "Why Israel Became a Nation in 1948," both by uploader sanderson1611 you'll see the two short videos that I'd like to link to.

Is what Pastor Anderson says in those two short videos true in terms of being supported by the Bible?

I don't believe in the rapture or anything but what he said about Israel today is pretty much true.

Should Christians not support modern-day Israel? If so, why?

Christians should not support Israel based on Biblical grounds because the Bible does not support this notion. A Christian can support Israel for some other reason and there would be nothing wrong with that. For example, during the Cold War Israel was our only ally in the region and all the Arab countries around them were supported by the Soviet Union so based on this it would make sense to support them. The Cold War is over so I can't really justify the kind of unconditional support they receive. I do not oppose their existence but they have simply become a burden and we get nothing out of the relationship. We give away Billions of dollars to them when they are a well developed country with a large economy which doesn't make sense.

 

[Knee V]

I have never heard of this guy, but anyone with "1611" in their name I will have nothing to do with.

That said, regardless of whatever this guy may have said, I do not support the modern nation-state of Israel. I see it as prophetically insignificant, and they have been terrorizing innocent people for decades now, forcing people out of their homes, and walling them into ghettos. They slaughter and degrade the Palestinians whether they are part of Hamas or not. They are a genocidal nation, no better than Hamas.

And for my Dispensationalist and Zionist friends, save yourself the trouble of saying that I'm "cursed" for "not standing with Israel" or whatever. It will fall on deaf ears, and I really don't care if that is your opinion.

 

[PaladinValer]

Putting it simply, there is no room in historic, orthodox, authentic Christianity for the likes of Dispensationalism, KJV-Onlyism, conspiracy theory, or psuedohistory.

Avoid videos, books, etc, that teach these things like the Black Death.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I have never heard of this guy, but anyone with "1611" in their name I will have nothing to do with.

That said, regardless of whatever this guy may have said, I do not support the modern nation-state of Israel. I see it as prophetically insignificant, and they have been terrorizing innocent people for decades now, forcing people out of their homes, and walling them into ghettos. They slaughter and degrade the Palestinians whether they are part of Hamas or not. They are a genocidal nation, no better than Hamas.

And for my Dispensationalist and Zionist friends, save yourself the trouble of saying that I'm "cursed" for "not standing with Israel" or whatever. It will fall on deaf ears, and I really don't care if that is your opinion.

I have quit attending a handful of churches when I walked by their tables that have a bunch of pamphlets and a few happened to have very pro-Israel ones on it with the same thinking.

I have the disagreement that the modern nation of Israel is the same as the biblical Israel. Just because they're 90% Jewish doesn't mean its the same Israel.

 

[Gunny]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has not broken his covenant with His chosen people and their land.

A very unpopular (Biblical) viewpoint these days to the onslaught of replacement theology.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Hum.. what does their exile teach us?

 

[miamited]

Hum.. what does their exile teach us?

Hi CS115,

That God is true to His word. God said that He would remove them from their land, and He did. God also said that after a time He would return them to their land, and so He has.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[football5680]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has not broken his covenant with His chosen people and their land.

A very unpopular (Biblical) viewpoint these days to the onslaught of replacement theology.

Is somebody who is not a physical descendent of Abraham but practices modern Talmudic Judaism part of the chosen people?

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)

Being a physical descendent of Abraham means nothing if you disobey God and are in rebellion against him. God did not break the covenant, the Jews did.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. (John 5:46)

If modern Jews were truly following what Moses and the rest of the prophets wrote, they would be Christians. The true chosen people do the will of God and denying the Son of God is not his will.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Is somebody who is not a physical descendent of Abraham but practices modern Talmudic Judaism part of the chosen people?

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)

Being a physical descendent of Abraham means nothing if you disobey God and are in rebellion against him. God did not break the covenant, the Jews did.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. (John 5:46)

If modern Jews were truly following what Moses and the rest of the prophets wrote, they would be Christians. The true chosen people do the will of God and denying the Son of God is not his will.

Yeah I was always under the assumption the New covenant doesn't replace the old, it continues the old.

 

[PaladinValer]

Is somebody who is not a physical descendent of Abraham but practices modern Talmudic Judaism part of the chosen people?

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)

Being a physical descendent of Abraham means nothing if you disobey God and are in rebellion against him. God did not break the covenant, the Jews did.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. (John 5:46)

If modern Jews were truly following what Moses and the rest of the prophets wrote, they would be Christians. The true chosen people do the will of God and denying the Son of God is not his will.

This is authentic, orthodox, historic Christianity.

There is no such thing as "Replacement Theology"; it is a purgative label by those who reject orthodox Christian theology on the subject.

The Church is the continuation of Israel, not its replacement. The Remnant were those Jews who accepted Christ. All other Jews are not part of the true Israel, but they are welcome to join Her just as much as any Gentile, for they were called first and it was theirs' first to claim.

All Jews who do become something other than Jews: they become Christians, just as Gentiles become Christians when they convert, for in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, just Christian; a (re)new(ed) creation.

 

[drjean]

The "replacement theology" that abounds today (and has for quite some time) is apostasy.

One can read all through the NT, even in Revelation, how God speaks of his chosen nation Israel... after the believers of grace have been raptured...and all 12 tribes are still around btw.

We are blessed if we bless Israel...and cursed if we curse her. That's pretty plain to me (pray for the peace of Jerusalem!)

I have not viewed those videos, short on time...


Those in the OT who connected with the chosen people and followed their God, were included by God. Even Jesus in the NT ---Who sought only the Jew prior to His death and resurrection--allowed for the 2 of great faith, both Gentiles (woman, centurion)...

 

[PaladinValer]

The "replacement theology" that abounds today (and has for quite some time) is apostasy.

No such theology exists...

...and Presbyterianism adheres to Covenant theology, which is quite Amillennial.

One can read all through the NT, even in Revelation, how God speaks of his chosen nation Israel... after the believers of grace have been raptured...and all 12 tribes are still around btw.

Sorry; this is not Christian theology.

We are blessed if we bless Israel...and cursed if we curse her. That's pretty plain to me (pray for the peace of Jerusalem!)

The country of Israel today is not even a continuation of the country of Israel of yesteryear, so again, this is not a Christian belief. It is, quite honestly, quack history.

Those in the OT who connected with the chosen people and followed their God, were included by God. Even Jesus in the NT ---Who sought only the Jew prior to His death and resurrection--allowed for the 2 of great faith, both Gentiles (woman, centurion)...

I strongly recommend discussing this with your Presbyterian ordained minister, because your theology is not in line with orthodox and historic Presbyterianism. Both Calvin and Knox would have rejected any non-Amillennialism, being students of St. Augustine's theology.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No such theology exists...

...and Presbyterianism adheres to Covenant theology, which is quite Amillennial.



Sorry; this is not Christian theology.



The country of Israel today is not even a continuation of the country of Israel of yesteryear, so again, this is not a Christian belief. It is, quite honestly, quack history.



I strongly recommend discussing this with your Presbyterian ordained minister, because your theology is not in line with orthodox and historic Presbyterianism. Both Calvin and Knox would have rejected any non-Amillennialism, being students of St. Augustine's theology.

Shhhhh! Don't be throwing around those crazy things called facts around. People might actually learn something.

 

[Gunny]

Hi CS115,

That God is true to His word. God said that He would remove them from their land, and He did. God also said that after a time He would return them to their land, and so He has.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Amen and Amen, my brother in Christ


In Christ,

Gunny/James

 

[PaladinValer]

Shhhhh! Don't be throwing around those crazy things called facts around. People might actually learn something.

Let's be fair and give anyone a chance to reply first. Yes, what is suggested in your post is common here, we need to always give folks a true and honest shot, and then go from there.

 

[Gunny]

The "replacement theology" that abounds today (and has for quite some time) is apostasy.

One can read all through the NT, even in Revelation, how God speaks of his chosen nation Israel... after the believers of grace have been raptured...and all 12 tribes are still around btw.

We are blessed if we bless Israel...and cursed if we curse her. That's pretty plain to me (pray for the peace of Jerusalem!)


Those in the OT who connected with the chosen people and followed their God, were included by God. Even Jesus in the NT ---Who sought only the Jew prior to His death and resurrection--allowed for the 2 of great faith, both Gentiles (woman, centurion)...

AMEN AND AMEN!

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Let's be fair and give anyone a chance to reply first. Yes, what is suggested in your post is common here, we need to always give folks a true and honest shot, and then go from there.

So, is your opinion that the current state of Israel is not the same as the historical biblical Israel? Judging from other posts people believe they are one and the same.

If they aren't...why is that?

 

[PaladinValer]

So, is your opinion that the current state of Israel is not the same as the historical biblical Israel? Judging from other posts people believe they are one and the same.

If they aren't...why is that?

It cannot be.

First off, the promises to Israel by God...the covenant...is not even in dispute. That's what a lot of people who use the false term of "Replacement Theology" don't seem to get. The actual dispute is what Israel is. What is Israel? How do we know who are God's People?

We know this because we become them by adoption. All, men and women, Jew or Gentile, become an adopted son of God by their baptism, for in it we are baptized in Christ's death, burial and descent, and resurrection.

Are Jews who are not adherents of Christ saved? No. The NT makes that very clear. But what of the Remnant? That's very easy: they are the Jews who did not abandon God and accepted Him Incarnate as Lord and Savior. All the others have rejected His salvation and will be Judged accordingly if it is His Will.

In both Judaism and Christianity, there has always been the importance of "ancientness" and "history". Judaism is all about the history of a nation and its relation with God; Christianity is no different, except its nation is all nations...all people in Christ. One nation of nations, if one wants to put it this way; a God that shows no partiality and is a respecter of no one. Without a historical link, the country of Israel cannot be the successor, and it cannot even be a spiritual one because of what happened in both the Gospels and in proven history: in the Gospels, the temple was broken, telling us the end of Judaism as of any merit. That was further enforced by its destruction a few decades later. Judaism is a dead religion, but God did not forsake anyone, for in Christ's blood is a new and final covenant; a continuation of salvation's history and with His relationship with His people. This time, however, it is with everyone, for God did not incarnate solely for Jews but, being human...just being incarnate...becoming part of creation by taking creation unto Himself...He includes now all peoples...all things into His saving embrace.

But this is all in Christ. What is the Mystical Body of Christ? The Church; the community in which we are initiated into by baptism. The Church isn't the replacement but the continuation of the True Israel; the Covenants, which Jesus condensed and summarized in how they should have all been followed in His Two Great Commandments, are still there. The only things gone are the old theologies no longer necessary because of Him and His Sacrifice: no more ritual/holiness laws...no more ritual purity...no more social laws. He was the Torah and nailed it. In Him we find our salvation, and our entering into Him is our accepting of this continued covenant and membership with Abraham and all our spiritual forefathers.

This is Christianity. All else is not.