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Bible Ignorance About God's Israel

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Davy, May 24, 2022.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Romans 2:28

    (CSB) For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh.

    (ESV) For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

    (ESV+) For R19no one is a Jew R20who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

    (Geneva) For hee is not a Iewe, which is one outwarde: neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    (GW) A person is not a Jew because of his appearance, nor is circumcision a matter of how the body looks.

    (HCSB) For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and true circumcision is not something visible in the flesh.

    (KJV) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    (KJV+) ForG1063 he isG2076 notG3756 a Jew,G2453 which is one outwardly;G1722 G5318 neitherG3761 is that circumcision,G4061 which is outwardG1722 G5318 inG1722 the flesh:G4561

    (NKJV) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

    (NLT) For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.

    (YLT) For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;

    .
     
  2. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Stop projecting. Did Solomon speak the truth before God and the congregation of Israel or not?
     
  3. EclipseEventSigns

    EclipseEventSigns Member

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    This thread is a typical example of ignorance of the history of Israel. Many people believe that there were "10 lost tribes" when Assyria came and carted off the northern portion of Israel (the 10 tribes). As if everyone stayed in their prescribed tribe to live. It is stated that this did not happen. There are and always have been a representation of all 12 (actually 13) tribes at all times down to the present day.

    This began at the point when the country had a civil war and split into Judah and Israel. Many of the northern tribes who were faithful followers did not want to be part of the idol following. So they moved permanently to the south, in Judah. There have always been a representation of all tribes through the ages.
    "And those who had set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came after them from all the tribes of Israel to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the LORD, the God of their fathers." 2 Chron 11:16
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am not 'projecting', as you say. I am quoting BIBLE SCRIPTURE. I can't help it if you don't like that Scripture...

    Gen 48:16-20
    16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

    17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

    18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

    19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


    20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
    KJV


    The 'seed' of Ephraim was to become literally, "a multitude of nations". And Jacob said let his name (Israel) be named upon the two lads Ephraim and Manasseh.

    In Solomon's day, his kingdom was but ONE NATION, called the kingdom of Israel, NOT a multitude of nations. And even in Solomon's day, God rent the kingdom from his son's hand, Rehoboam, and God gave ten tribes to Jeroboam, one born of the seed of Ephraim! (1 Kings 11).

    1 Kings 11:29-39
    29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:

    30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:

    31 And he said to Jeroboam, "Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:


    32 (But he shall have one tribe for My servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

    33 Because that they have forsaken Me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways, to do that which is right in Mine eyes, and to keep My statutes and My judgments, as did David his father.

    34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David My servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept My commandments and My statutes:

    35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.

    36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David My servant may have a light alway before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen Me to put My name there.

    37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.


    38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in My ways, and do that is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.

    39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.
    KJV


    So how's that for projecting?
     
  5. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When a person can't bring themselves to give a simple answer to a question and say, "Yes Solomon told the truth before God and the congregation of Israel". Then write several paragraphs to avoid such a conclusion and instead express "So how's that for projecting?". Yes your fabricating something that's still rejecting the truth and just keep playing identity politics as replacement theology.
    Are you willing to tell everyone the proper modern names of these new lands? Or are you going to avoid commenting plainly here too?
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I didn't write several paragraphs, as you imagine, I gave Scripture proofs of what I have said, and it ain't opinion either.

    I can't help if folks like yourself doesn't like that Scripture which declares God splitting the old kingdom of Israel and giving Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim ten tribes to rule over as 'Israel'. And I'll tell you what else that 1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 13 Scripture exposes. It shows that those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea in that time, known as Jews, DID NOT represent the "kingdom of Israel", but only the ten northern tribes under one born of Ephraim did.

    Since you apparently don't like the "multitude of nations" prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become, you probably don't like the following Scripture either...

    1 Chron 5:1-2
    Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

    2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
    KJV


    The above Scripture is clear that God's Birthright in final wound upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. And what do ya know, that falls right in line with the Genesis 48 prophecy of Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations"! This is why even today, we no longer see a king sitting upon a throne in Jerusalem of the house of David, and many other promises that involve God's Birthright first given through His servant Abraham which wound upon the heads of Ephraim and Manasseh.
     
  7. EclipseEventSigns

    EclipseEventSigns Member

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    That's not accurate according to Scripture. As I pointed out above, 2 Chron 11:16 says all of the tribes were represented in Judah after the civil war and down to this day.
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I showed most certainly is... accurate.

    The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the title of 'Jew' is what those returning from the Babylon captivity back to Jerusalem called themselves, and that the title is derived from the sole tribe of Judah. He said all living in the area of Judea took that title of Jew. So that meant foreigner converts too.


    Here in red is the Scripture you have missed...

    2 Chron 11:12-17
    12 And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side.

    13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

    14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

    15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

    16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.


    17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
    KJV


    Your assumption, which is false, is that ALL of the northern ten tribes left Jeroboam and sided with Judah. That is not what that Scripture declares. It declares that only a REMNANT of the ten tribes refused Jeroboam's calf idols and went south to join with Judah. So what happened to the REST of the ten northern tribes under Jeroboam, of the "kingdom of Israel"? They remained in the northern lands, until God caused the kings of Assyria to come and take them captive first, to the lands of Assyria and of the Medes, never to return as God's people.

    Thus there were TWO captivities of God's people in Old Testament history. The first one was only to the northern ten tribes of the "kingdom of Israel" by the kings of Assyria. God ended their kingdom and scattered them among the nations, as He had forewarned. But the Judah "kingdom of Judah" in the south at Jerusalem-Judea remained only.

    Then about 120 years later, God would bring Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, upon the Jews of the "kingdom of Judah", and take them captive to Babylon for 70 years, and only a small remnant of those would return to rebuild the city and temple. The larger portion of the "house of Judah" chose to stay in Babylon, because God had promised to take care of them there, so they got comfortable. Then those Jews of the southern kingdom who remained in Babylon were later scattered through the countries also like the ten tribes were. And thus we have Apostle James' salutation "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1, KJV)
     
  9. EclipseEventSigns

    EclipseEventSigns Member

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    I said nothing of what you claim. Stop misquoting. The Scripture does not say what you claim it does.
     
  10. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You... are the one that needs to stop misrepresenting things, even what you had said!

    I said in my earlier post about what the Scriptures show:
    "It shows that those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea in that time, known as Jews, DID NOT represent the "kingdom of Israel", but only the ten northern tribes under one born of Ephraim did."

    Your response to that was:
    "That's not accurate according to Scripture. As I pointed out above, 2 Chron 11:16 says all of the tribes were represented in Judah after the civil war and down to this day."


    My last post MADE WHAT I SAID OBVIOUS DIRECTLY FROM BIBLE SCRIPTURE.

    Now if you want to REJECT the actual Bible Scripture I showed you, that's your problem. So don't go PROJECTING your problem onto others like myself.

    And furthermore, there are MORE Bible Scriptures about that time that proves what I'm saying about the two separate kingdoms, with ONLY the northern ten tribe kingdom under Jeroboam being named the "kingdom of Israel"!
     
  11. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem isn't the blue and red type It's what's written in black. You can't bring yourself to say Solomon spoke the truth about those promises relating to Ephraim and instead falsely claim that it's me that doesn't like Ephraim. You also avoided answering the second question.
    These are great big gaping holes your narrative framework. Who are these present day nations that have replaced Israel that you are referring today?
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Firstly, no evidence that Solomon wrote the Book of 1 Kings. The author of 1 and 2 Kings is not given.

    And in 1 Kings 11 about God rending the kingdom from Solomon's son Rehoboam, it is a HISTORY by God's divine guidance that He gave one of Ephraim ten tribes to rule over.

    So if you DO NOT BELIEVE the Books of 1 and 2 Kings were written by divine guidance, then it means you don't believe any other Bible Book was written by divine guidance either. Is that what you want us to believe about you?
     
  13. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do believe books of Kings was inspired by God in quoting Solomon's speech before God and the congregation of Israel.
    You can't restore something that at one point you never had in the first place. The apostles believed it too, "So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?Acts of the Apostles 1:6

    I believe Solomon spoke the truth do you?
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Once again, there is NO evidence that Solomon wrote the Books of 1 and 2 Kings. Solomon is not speaking of himself in 1 Kings 11.

    It instead is written ABOUT Solomon, and his son Rehoboam, and Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim whom Solomon had appointed as a ruler over the northern ten tribes prior to a falling out, so Jeroboam fled to Egypt. When Rehoboam took over the kingdom at Jerusalem from his father Solomon, leaders of the ten tribes went to Jerusalem to ask Rehoboam to ease the burden his father Solomon had put upon them. Rehoboam said he would make things harder on the ten tribes, so the ten tribes parted and broke off from following Rehoboam. Only the tribe of Benjamin sided with Rehoboam and Judah at Jerusalem-Judea. The leaders of the northern ten tribes then sent for Jeroboam to return, and he did.

    God's prophet Ahijah found Jeroboam in a field wearing a new coat, and took the new coat off him, and tore it into twelve pieces. He then gave Jeroboam ten pieces, and said God had given him ten tribes and that he would be king of Israel if he would follow Him like His servant David did.

    Rehoboam at Jerusalem, then tried to bring the whole kingdom back together after God had made Jeroboam king over Israel instead. So Rehoboam gathered an army at Jerusalem, only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and sought to go north and bring the ten tribes back into the fold. God stopped Rehoboam, and told him this split was of Him, and to not go up against the ten tribes.

    That is when GOD... split the old kingdom of Israel (12 tribes) into TWO separate kingdoms, the "kingdom of Judah" with Rehoboam, Solomon's son over it, and the "kingdom of Israel" with Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim over ten northern tribes. The southern "kingdom of Judah" was made up of only two tribes initially, Judah and Benjamin. The capital city of the "kingdom of Judah" at the south was Jerusalem. The capital city in the north over the ten tribe "kingdom of Israel" was at Samaria.

    Later once Jeroboam, king of Israel, setup two gold calf idols in the north, some small remnants of the ten tribes refused to worship them and went south, and joined with Rehoboam's kingdom at Jerusalem. The remaining larger portion of the ten tribes stayed in the north under Jeroboam, king of Israel. Because Jeroboam also had made common priests of the people, the Levites in the north also left the ten tribes and went south, and joined with Judah and Rehoboam.

    That was all history. It happened, and it was NOT Solomon telling it. And anyone with common sense having read the 1 and 2 Kings well knows Solomon could not have written it, since it covers a period of history over a span of time MUCH LONGER that Solomon's life.
     
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't believe, but know, that you are Biblically illiterate, and seek to make a joke out of the matter of who wrote 1 and 2 Kings.
     
  16. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Unlike yourself when it comes to your illiteracy of distorting what I'm writing, I can safely point out that I did not say Solomon wrote Kings, the author is writing down the speech as the testimony that happened before God and the congregation of Israel. At worst I was not being clear enough to get past your defence of this flawed replacement theory you have.
    This is evidence which you're beginning to understand because you are avoiding to say, "Solomon was lying before God and the congregation of Israel". Because then the joke would be on anyone claiming those words.
     
  17. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Norbet said in post #71:
    "You can't bring yourself to say Solomon spoke the truth about those promises relating to Ephraim and instead falsely claim that it's me that doesn't like Ephraim."

    Those are YOUR words, not mine. You refer to Solomon having spoken those promises about Ephraim, when Solomon never spoke those things in 1 Kings 11; it was GOD Himself that spoke those promises to Jeroboam of Ephraim, through His prophet Ahijah, as written.

    So your conversation on this isn't worth anything, since you can't even focus in 1 Kings 11 just who is speaking there.
     
  18. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no good reason in the pursuit of truth to change the topic and continue to focus this. To avoid the truthfulness of Solomon's speech would be irresponsible.

    The author credits them to Solomon speaking before God and the whole congregation of Israel. Did Solomon speak the truth or are you unable to say, "Solomon spoke the truth" as well?
     
  19. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK, time to pull out the stops about what God's Word teaches about His 'ISRAEL', and squelch the false Jew's falsehoods about today's Israel.

    1. Per 1 Kings 11, because Solomon rebelled in allowing pagan idolatry into the original kingdom of Israel, God split old Israel into TWO separate nations, and thus two separate kingdoms.

    2. Solomon's son Rehoboam, of the house of David, remained as king of Judah, over the "kingdom of Judah" in the southern lands of Jerusalem-Judea. He had only TWO tribes with him initially, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Eventually the Levites all left the north and sided with Rehoboam, along with a SMALL REMNANT out of the ten tribes (2 Chronicles 11:11-17). These made up the JEWS, that title originating from the sole tribe of Judah.

    3. God gave Jeroboam, of the tribe of Ephraim, TEN TRIBES to rule over in the northern lands, called the "kingdom of Israel". THESE WERE NOT CALLED JEWS. And this "kingdom of Israel" as written, was made up of ONLY the ten northern tribes of Israel, meaning the MAJORITY of the children of Israel. Thus THESE REPRESENTED THE TRUE 'ISRAEL' at that time.

    4. Both kingdoms then began to war against each other (1 Kings 14:30).

    5. Bible prophecy after that split when saying, "Israel", "house of Israel", "kingdom of Israel", Samaria (its capital city), "Ephraim", "Joseph", etc., is ONLY SPEAKING OF THE NORTHERN TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL, and not the Jews. ONLY when Scripture after the split says something like "the whole house of Israel" does it mean ALL 12 tribes. Other than that, after the split, ISRAEL is ONLY about the northern ten tribes. So even when Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", He was specifically pointing to the TEN TRIBES that were scattered, and they as a majority would accept The Gospel. That fulfillment is actually taught in opposition by today's Jews, even by deceived believing Jews!

    6. As per 1 Kings 11:32, God promised He would always leave ONE TRIBE at Jerusalem for David's and Jerusalem's sake. Those are represented by the HOUSE OF JUDAH only, the Jews, even for TODAY.

    7. Jeroboam, was of the tribe of Ephraim. God made him king over Israel at that split. But Israel then was represented by ONLY the ten northern tribes. Because of king Jeroboam's calf idol worship he setup in the north, God eventually got tired of it, and sent the kings of Assyria upon the northern kingdom to take it away. Only the southern "kingdom of Judah" (3 tribes) would be left in the southern lands.

    8. Per 2 Kings 17, the kings of Assyria took all the seed of the northern ten tribes, the "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel", and removed them all to the lands of Assyrian and the Medes. These would NEVER return to the holy land as a people. They became LOST, hence the term 'ten lost tribes of Israel'.

    9. Per God's prophet Hosea, God foretold what He would do to the ten northern tribe "house of Israel", how He would scatter them and they would not find their way back. They would lose knowledge of His sabbaths and feast days, and new moons, and thus their identity as Israel. God would given them over to the full strength of their Baal worship they desired, because they forgot Him.

    He said He would eventually lead them into the 'wilderness', to new lands. And there, He would allure her, and speak comfortably to her, and give her vineyards from thence. And in that day, they would no more call Him "Baali", but "Ishi" (Husband). And there He would betroth them unto Him in righteousness, in faithfulness, and in judgement forever. All that He said SPECIFICALLY to the TEN TRIBE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and NOT to the Jews of the "house of Judah". The Jews have their own prophecies for the future that He gave. Hosea was specifically involving the ten tribes AND THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.

    (Continued...)
     
  20. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I used to think in the same way you have presented here. But I am rethinking the sinai covenant of the kingdom of priests and what that is or means.
    A kingdom of priests, the covenant made with Levi.
    Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:


    Ex 28:9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
    Ex 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
    Ex 28:12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.
    Ex 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. {set … : Heb. fill in it fillings of stone } {sardius: or, ruby }
    Ex 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
    Ex 31:5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
    Ex 35:9 And onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod, and for the breastplate.
    Ex 35:27 And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate;
    Ex 35:33 And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
    Ex 39:6 And they wrought onyx stones inclosed in ouches of gold, graven, as signets are graven, with the names of the children of Israel.
    Ex 39:7 And he put them on the shoulders of the ephod, that they should be stones for a memorial to the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
    Ex 39:10 And they set in it four rows of stones: the first row was a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this was the first row. {sardius: or, ruby }
    Ex 39:14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

    The priestly garments were for a representative ministry before God, of twelve tribes.
    Ex 28:2 And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty.
    3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.
    4 And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

    9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:
    10 Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.
    11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold.
    12 And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

    Did this cease when the kingdom was divided? I don't think so.

    Anointed 04899 Hebrew
    Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


    04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh

    from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}

    AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39


    Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
    Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:

     
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