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Bible Ignorance About God's Israel

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Davy, May 24, 2022.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What did Paul say below about those who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit of God?


    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    .
     
  2. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Another argument can be made that reaches the same conclusion against those who like to claim that Solomon was lying in 1 Kings 8:56. While Solomon was uttering those words before his God and the congregation of Israel he did not fall dead on the spot as did Ananias and Sapphira for lying to Him and the entire congregation in the NT. Hence, Solomon did not lie.

    Solomon did not lie about the promises being fulfilled about Israel, it's our modern hubris of believing we know better that drives and keeps British Israelism alive in the minds of the ill informed.
     
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Justified

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    The nation was founded on the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is now obsolete, thus the nation with it. Their demise and end was clearly indicated in the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word used for "Jew" in that means a Judean, which can be anyone who followed the Jew's religion that lived in the land of Judea. It can also mean a Gentile stranger convert to Judaism.

    NT:2453
    Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos); from NT:2448 (in the sense of NT:2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah:

    KJV - Jew (-ess), of Judaea.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    Yet Paul is using it in the SPIRITUAL ISRAELITE sense, like GOD's chosen Israel in righteousness.

    So that has NOTHING to do with your false suggestion that God ended His promises to the 'seed' of Israel.
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I ALREADY COVERED the meaning of that 1 Kings 8:56 verse which was about THAT time of Solomon of God THEN having kept His promises to the children of Israel. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH Israel's rest in final at Jesus' future coming. You are INSERTING a FABRICATION FROM MEN'S DOCTRINES INTO THAT SCRIPTURE where it does not belong, evidently a favorite technique taught by today's fallen seminaries.
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry to have to say it, but that idea is quite ignorant.

    The old covenant is what is obsolete, not the seed of Israel.

    God promised Judah in Jeremiah 24 that He would bring them back to the land and not remove them again. So far, Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 shows that having been fulfilled. Since the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., and their scattering of the Jews from that area then, many of them have returned, especially in 1948 to form the modern nation of Israel.

    Furthermore, Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 said believing Gentiles have come nigh to the promises and covenants to Israel through Jesus Christ. Paul used the label for that as "the commonwealth of Israel"!

    Might want to keep studying your Bible to get your mind aligned with it, instead of some pulpit preacher that goes against it which God did not call.
     
  7. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Justified

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    Well, you can call me ignorant, but the nation and its relationship with God was built on the covenant. It sounds absurd to say that their relationship with God was not a covenanted one, when in fact it was...
     
  8. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can tell you have not... studied your Old Testament histories. There is so much... about God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ written there that gives loads of more detail to The New Testament Scripture, and I can tell this part is completely missing in your understanding.

    Have you never wondered why Jesus promised His 12 Apostles they each would sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? (Matthew 19:28). How will that happen if the nation of Israel is no more?

    And just why... would Apostle Paul use that "commonwealth of Israel" label to apply to Christ's Church involving God's original promises and covenants to Israel? (Ephesians 2).
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Justified

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    Or, maybe you haven't understood it from other perspectives and think yours is right. I use to be a dispensationalist, before I studied the Scriptures for myself that is. How I understand covenants is that they structure redemptive history, and it fits everything in place. When you disconnect the nation of Israel from the Old Covenant, you begin to sound like the one who doesn't know what they are talking about. You're too confident in your position, like I was when I was in your shoes. I was too confident and arrogant when I was an Arminian as well.
     
  10. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Justified

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    Jeremiah 31 is referring to the people, not the nation. They had entrance into the New Covenant upon its inauguration by faith, and we were grafted in the same. God was establishing a new covenant with the people, not the nation. This covenant promised regeneration and the forgiveness of sins. This is only granted to the Church, because the Church was founded on the New Covenant.
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's a short Bible summary that you have missed about this matter...

    1. The Promise by Faith (The Gospel), was first offered to Abraham. Abraham believed God and his Faith was counted as righteousness, and he would become the father of many nations. Thus The Gospel was preached to Abraham, like Paul said in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.

    2. Along with the Gospel Promise, God promised specific blessings to Abraham and his 'seed'. These promises would be as many seed as the stars and sands of the sea, plenty of corn and wine, ruling the gates of one's enemies, the resources and lands as far as Abraham could see, and a king line that would sit on Israel's throne unto all generations. These blessings were called the "birthright", an actual birthright from God that was to be handed down from generation to generation among the children of Israel.

    3. God's Birthright and Promise by Faith was then given to Isaac next.

    4. Then Isaac's son Jacob wrestled with the Angel, and demanded a blessing, and was told his new name would no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because he prevailed as a prince with God. All the birthright inheritances then went to Jacob.

    5. From Jacob the birthright went to Joseph, as Reuben was actually the firstborn, but he slept with one of his father's concubines. So the birthright went to Joseph and Joseph's two sons born to him in Egypt.

    6 Upon Ephraim and Manasseh is where the birthright finally wound up, per 1 Chronicles 5:1-2. In Genesis 35, God promised Jacob that his 'seed' would become "a nation and a company of nations". In Genesis 48, Jacob said that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would become 'great'.

    That last part about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" happened in the Christian West. It is pointing directly to CHRIST'S CHURCH AND THE WESTERN CHRISTIAN NATIONS of history. Per archaelogy and anthropology and the Assyrian tablets, the Jehu Steele, Behistun rock, and even 2 Esdras, etc., the ten scatter tribes of the northern house of Israel migrated westward through the Dariel pass in the Caucasus mountains around the Black Sea, becoming known as Caucasians, and would make up the majority of the western nations of Asia Minor and Europe.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    God did not end His promises to the "seed" of Israel.

    He fulfilled them through the sacrifice of His Son at Calvary.


    Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
  13. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Putting another spin on British Israelism does not change it spots. To give it the correct and proper biblical word, blemish!

    We know who the Jews are today as James 1:1 tells us. "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes of the Dispersion: Greetings." as quoted from the Berean Bible Study version of the good news.

    By the none sensical version of events found in British Israelism, that lie would have people believe that James' original letter didn't arrive until Great Britain and the United States rediscovered it's true genetical roots which was lost and remained hidden for eighteen centuries.

    Placing confidence in the flesh didn't work out for the second temple Jewish nation, it's not going to work any better for any Gentile nation who place confidence in their flesh as claiming to be replacements for Jews today.
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not pushing the idea of British Israelism as you say. The fulfillment of the "multitude of nations" prophecy does not fit your supposed British Israelism theories.

    Gen 48:16-20
    16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

    17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

    18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

    19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


    20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
    KJV
     
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you are trying... to say that when Jesus said "It is finished", that meant all of God's promises and covenants to Israel were then 'finished', as in the sense of 'ended'?

    That's not what Lord Jesus was pointing to at all!

    When He said that upon the cross, He was pointing to His prophecies about His crucifixion and the defeat of the devil!

    It is obvious to anyone that has studied ALL their Bible that there are still many... Bible prophecies remaining about the re-establishing of the nation and people of Israel in Christ's future Kingdom. One can read even their final restoration to the holy lands in Ezekiel 47 and 48.

    Christ's Church is... God's Israel. That is why Jesus is King of Israel, and that will be the name of His Kingdom in the world to come. This is why Apostle Paul also would use the term "commonwealth of Israel" for Christ's future Kingdom...

    Eph 2:11-13
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    KJV
     
  16. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And per God's Word, just who are... the Jews?

    1. Per God's Word, and even the Jewish historian Josephus who lived around 100 A.D., the Jews represented ONLY the southern kingdom of three tribes and the foreigner converts living in the southern lands of Judea-Jerusalem.

    After the split of 1 Kings 11 forward, the Jews were called the "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah", or just "Jerusalem", or even just "Judah" in God's Word. Only those who have studied the Old Testament Books would know about this. These Jews were made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and a small remnant of the northern ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's idols (2 Chronicles 11:14-17). And the rest were foreigners that had crept in throughout Israel's history, like the Kenites of the land of Canaan, and the Canaanites Israel was not able to destroy, and many of the children of Esau which became Jews, king Herod himself having been an Idumean of the children of Esau. Josephus said the title of 'Jew' originated from the sole tribe of Judah.


    2. The ten northern tribes were not known as Jews.

    After God split old Israel in Solomon's day, He gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over Israel. This meant ONLY over the northern ten tribes that lived north of Jerusalem and Judea. (See 1 Kings 11).

    The northern kingdom under Jeroboam was known as the "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel", or "Samaria" (it's captital), or just "Israel", or "Joseph", or "Ephraim". All of those titles are used for the northern ten tribe kingdom after Solomon's days.

    This is why there is much Bible prophecy in the OT prophets that distinguishes the two separate kingdoms and houses. And to not recognize this in Scripture is to be Biblically illiterate.

    Yet I have never claimed to be a Biblical scholar, but I'm well aware of all that, so how's that? It is because I have 'studied' the Old Testament Books along with The New Testament Books. Those not familiar with that Bible history reveal they have NOT... studied all their Bible! And that includes many preachers who preach The Bible in today's pulpits! What a shame, is all I can say, however... God did show in the OT prophets that would happen in the last days, that there would be a famine for hearing The Word of God, and looking everywhere for it and not finding it (meaning looking everywhere to get understanding in it, but not finding it.)
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I am glad you got the part above 100% correct, because everything else depends on this truth.

    Is Christ your king now? Are you a part of His kingdom now? Was He already both Lord (King) and Christ (Messiah) on the Day of Pentecost?

    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


    What is the home promised to the Old Testament Saints in the passage below?

    Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
    Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


    This is the same place Paul was talking about below.

    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


    It is the same place promised to the church in the Book of Hebrews.

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


    It is the same place Christ promised to believers in the verse below.

    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


    Is your future home found in the city described below?

    Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    .
     
  18. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    [QUOTE="BABerean2, post: 76772202, member: 353202"]I am glad you got the part above 100% correct, because everything else depends on this truth.

    Is Christ your king now? Are you a part of His kingdom now? Was He already both Lord (King) and Christ (Messiah) on the Day of Pentecost?
    [/quote]


    Christ Jesus has always... been my King. Didn't you understand Hebrews 7 that points to Jesus in The Old Testament as Melchisedec, King of Righteousness? Might want to expand your understanding a bit, and quit trying to dwell on Pentecost about the original establishing of God's Church.

    I have Jesus' Promise of His Kingdom to come. As of right now, His Kingdom is ONLY manifest today in Spirit through His many-membered body of believers. The "Kingdom Now" Charismatics are the ones who wrongly believe that everyone on earth today will eventually believe on Jesus, and that it's our (His Church) responsibility to create His literal Kingdom here on earth during this Present world. That ain't what God's Word teaches about His Kingdom of the world to come though. That instead is what Christ's enemies today that have crept in among those Charismatic "Kingdom Now" deceived are teaching.


    Oh... how one does LOVE to take Bible Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT! You see, there are AS MANY BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT EXIST TO SHOW THE EARTH... IS WHERE HIS FUTURE KINGDOM IS GOING TO BE ESTABLISHED, and you left all... of those out of your short-sighted summary above! Right now, His Holy Jerusalem is in the heavenly dimension, but it is to come DOWN TO THIS EARTH in the world to come.

    Here's just a few examples...

    Rev 5:9-10
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    KJV


    Rev 21:2-3
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."
    KJV


    How is it, that those above Scriptures are not in YOUR Bible? You didn't mention them, and those above events are not about THIS PRESENT WORLD TIME.


    Yeah, my FUTURE WITH CHRIST JESUS is... found in the City that Paul proclaimed, but only IF I died before it comes down to this earth in the world to come, or on that day when it comes down out of Heaven, whichever one happens first.

    But you obviously have been 'deceived', by Darby's false pre-trib rapture theory no doubt, for those wrongly think and are falsely taught that we are raptured to Heaven to live in the clouds! You guys even write songs about that falseness, "I'll fly away", etc. Even Jim Baker had an epiphany while in prison when he finally got down to actual Bible study, and discovered all that pre-trib rapture theory junk is not written anywhere in God's Word.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Since I produced the YouTube video below which shows the original source of John Nelson Darby's doctrine, you could not be more wrong.


    Genesis of Dispensational Theology



    Revelation 5:9-10 does not say it is on this rotten sin cursed earth.

    See what happens to this planet on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13.
    What was Peter looking for?
    Was he looking for the Jerusalem in Revelation 11:8, or the one in Revelation 3:12?


    .
     
  20. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Well-Known Member

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    And here is answer of Rom 2:28 , Here we have , first , to note the figure of HENDIADYS , LETTER AND CIRCUMCISION and translate it LITERAL CIRCUMCISION .

    And nextwe have to preserve the emphasis marked by the order ofthe words , which we can well do if correctly supply the ELLIPSIS .

    And shall not uncircumcision which by nature fulfilleth the law , condemn thee ( though thou art a Jew ) who , through the literal circumcision , art a trangressor of the law ?

    dan p
     
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