Bible Corruptions

Isilwen

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That's an odd inference. No, I'm not saying that.

That is why I asked for clarification.

It sounded as though you were saying that you find;t read the Bible because to do so would mean you are placing it over Christ.

I now understand what you meant. Thank you for the clarification!
 
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Dave G.

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I have the 1984 version, was the first Bible I ever owned and was given to me by my now ex-wife. I also just picked up the NIV Life Application Bible 3rd Edition. It was published on my Birthday in 2019. I like them both.
I don't know anything about your 2019, the 84 should be pretty decent in terms of accuracy. The 1978 is good. I like how the NIV reads by the way, I used one for quite a while till switching to KJV and NKJV mostly. In fact my daughter has one of our original NIV bibles at her house very very well read, she loves it.
 
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Isilwen

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I don't know anything about your 2019, the 84 should be pretty decent in terms of accuracy. The 1978 is good. I like how the NIV reads by the way, I used one for quite a while till switching to KJV and NKJV mostly. In fact my daughter has one of our original NIV bibles at her house very very well read, she loves it.

I believe that the 2019 version is more gender-neutral, which I do not have a problem with really as it doesn't lose the meaning it is trying to convey when the context is kept in view so to speak.

I several versions, but I find myself reading mostly from the NIV and NKJV. As I am maybe going to become an Episcopalian, I also bought an NRSV that has the Apocrypha, although I wish it wasn't at the end of the OT and was more interspersed just like a Catholic Bible.
 
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What is the difference between being under the law
and being under obligation to the moral law?

I don't see any difference.

We are either to follow the commandments or we are not. Which is it?

Well, I believe many Christians are confused in regards to sin and salvation. Grievous unconfessed sin can spiritually condemn a believer before God (Despite what popular churches say). Contrary to mainstream Bible Alone Christendom, I believe there are two aspects of salvation (Which are the works of God operating in our life under our free will cooperation).

They are:

#1. God's grace through faith in Christ (Seeking forgiveness with Him).
#2. Sanctification (Holy Living, obedience to God).​

The 1st Aspect of Salvation (God's grace through faith in Jesus):

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1).​

The 2nd Aspect of Salvation (Sanctification, or Holy living by His working):

But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).​

As for the Law:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as to sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, in this instance, He is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).
There is a Change of the Law:

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).​

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law
(even before the cross):

(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant,
but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because because as I said before, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
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Many reduced that 1 John 5:7 verse to three witnesses vs naming them in full. But several versions include the whole statement including my NKJV. I haven't ( yet anyway) seen it totally omitted in any translation I've run into.

Look at this screen capture at Biblehub:

full


Do you see the KJV versions at the bottom, and the other Modern Versions?

Basically, if you were stranded on an island and you knew nothing of Christianity, your chances are better in understanding the Trinity if a King James Bible washed up on to shore vs. say a neutered NIV.

1 John 5:7 is the only verse that point blank tells us about the Trinity.
As I said before, there is an attack on the Bible. The devil hates God's Word and he will do anything to water it down and get others to doubt God's Word in the fact that there is no reliable or perfect Word of God today.

Source:
Biblehub.com - 1 John 5:7
 
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Dave G.

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Look at this screen capture at Biblehub:

full


Do you see the KJV versions at the bottom, and the other Modern Versions?

Basically, if you were stranded on an island and you knew nothing of Christianity, your chances are better in understanding the Trinity if a King James Bible washed up on to shore vs. say a neutered NIV.

1 John 5:7 is the only verse that point blank tells us about the Trinity.
As I said before, there is an attack on the Bible. The devil hates God's Word and he will do anything to water it down and get others to doubt God's Word in the fact that there is no reliable or perfect Word of God today.

Source:
Biblehub.com - 1 John 5:7
I agree on the attack ( as well as on the church at large). I just have not seen where that verse is completely missing in the translations I've run into. Your screen shot shows what I mean, some are inaccurate but not missing. It's ok, I get it, your point is good !!

I was disappointed to find NASB to have condensed the meaning as well.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Well, I believe many Christians are confused in regards to sin and salvation. Grievous unconfessed sin can spiritually condemn a believer before God (Despite what popular churches say). Contrary to mainstream Bible Alone Christendom, I believe there are two aspects of salvation (Which are the works of God operating in our life under our free will cooperation).

They are:

#1. God's grace through faith in Christ (Seeking forgiveness with Him).
#2. Sanctification (Holy Living, obedience to God).​

The 1st Aspect of Salvation (God's grace through faith in Jesus):

I believe that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, and seeking forgiveness with Him) and it is not by "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace and mercy (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5). For if we stumble into sin, do we get clean by doing a good work? No. We get clean and forgiven (saved) again by God's grace. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9, cf. 1 John 2:1).​

The 2nd Aspect of Salvation (Sanctification, or Holy living by His working):

But after we are saved by God's grace, I believe that we need to bring forth "works of faith" (obedience to Christ's commands) as a part of the Sanctification process (i.e. the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives to make us holy) in the next step or stage in the salvation process. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). Paul also says we can deny God by a lack of works in our life (Titus 1:16).​

As for the Law:

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So you have to look at the 613 Laws of Moses as being one contract given to Israel, and the laws (or commands) given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the New Covenant) is another contract. For Romans 7:6 says, "we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Think of it like when a person may buy a house. They are offered a contract for buying that house. But if that person does not like the contract in certain places, they may request to have the contract changed. If the seller and real estate agent agree to the changes, they will draw up a new contract (with the new changes) so as to sell the house to him. For this guy who is buying the house, his idea of the purchase (according to the new contract) is more fulfilled and complete to his liking. So what do they do with the old contract? They discard it. Entirely? No. The new contract may have repeated many things in the old contract, but the new contract has changes in it that fulfill a better purpose or desire for the buyer.

We know that the New Covenant (New Contract) began officially with Christ's death (See Hebrews 9:16-17, Luke 22:20, Matthew 27:51). With the exception of a few instances like Christ endorsing animal sacrifices in Matthew 5:24, Jesus primarily was taught New Covenant teachings before the cross and not OT teachings. Jesus was preparing others for the way of the upcoming New Covenant or New Testament that would go into effect when he died upon the cross.

When Jesus says I come not to destroy the Law, in this instance, He is referring to God’s Laws in general. Jesus did not come to destroy ALL forms of Law. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. This means Jesus came to fulfill the Law into it's true intended purpose with the giving of the commands from Himself and His followers. For the Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17). Jesus brought us commands in the New Covenant that were FAR superior to the Old Covenant Laws (contractually speaking - like contracts in buying a house).
There is a Change of the Law:

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).​

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law
(even before the cross):

(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant,
but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because because as I said before, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
Great post....
very well said and complete.
You took a lot of time with this.

Nothing to add...
Just that initial salvation is JUSTIFICATION
and on-going salvation is SANCTIFICATION,,,as you've said.

By The Law,,,I meant the 10 commandments - can't remember if I made that clear.

The only other comment is that the O.T. law had 3 parts to it:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

It's the Moral Law that we are to adhere to...this has not changed, although many seem to think it has.

Thanks!
 
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Great post....
very well said and complete.
You took a lot of time with this.

Nothing to add...
Just that initial salvation is JUSTIFICATION
and on-going salvation is SANCTIFICATION,,,as you've said.

By The Law,,,I meant the 10 commandments - can't remember if I made that clear.

The only other comment is that the O.T. law had 3 parts to it:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

It's the Moral Law that we are to adhere to...this has not changed, although many seem to think it has.

Thanks!

You are most welcome.

May God bless you, sister.
 
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Imagine if you were discussing 1 John 5:7. You would be discussing whether or not this verse should even should be in your Bible or not. 1 John 5:7 talks about the Trinity in the KJV, and yet this verse is absent in most of your Modern Translations. Why? The devil hates God's Word and will seek to water down and attack it by any means. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17), but if the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do? (Psalms 11:3).
1 John 5:7 is different in different bibles; I also have the KJV.

Why should it not be in the bible?
Jesus has 3 witnesses saying He is God....
at His baptism, when He died He shed water and blood, and the Holy Spirit also attests to this.
In any case, the doctrine of the Trinity has been established by those that understand scripture better than we do (the Early Fathers).

I don't believe how this verse is written makes any difference to our faith.

Why do you believe it does?
 
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1 John 5:7 is different in different bibles; I also have the KJV.

Why should it not be in the bible?
Jesus has 3 witnesses saying He is God....
at His baptism, when He died He shed water and blood, and the Holy Spirit also attests to this.
In any case, the doctrine of the Trinity has been established by those that understand scripture better than we do (the Early Fathers).

I don't believe how this verse is written makes any difference to our faith.

Why do you believe it does?

All truth in God's Word is not only discovered by early believers but it can be discovered by us, as well. I believe this truth is derived from the Bible. If so, then we need a verse in the Bible that plainly and clearly tells us about the Trinity. While other verses may be suggestive of the Trinity, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse (in the KJV) that makes this truth clear. For if a man was stranded on an island and he had no clue about Christianity, his chances of understanding the Trinity are far better if a King James Bible washed upon on shore, instead of an NIV. For 1 John 5:7 would tell this man about the Trinity in a direct way. No other verse does this.
 
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Isilwen

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For if a man was stranded on an island and he had no clue about Christianity, his chances of understanding the Trinity are far better if a King James Bible washed upon on shore, instead of an NIV. For 1 John 5:7 would tell this man about the Trinity in a direct way. No other verse does this.

Yet, I read the NIV before I became a Christian and it was the NIV that led me to become a Christian. I understood it was the trilogy when reading that verse.

Your statement is not true.

KJVO is from the pits of hell to create division and reading your posts in this thread shows that with at least one person he is succeeding.
 
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GodsGrace101

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All truth in God's Word is not only discovered by early believers but it can be discovered by us, as well. I believe this truth is derived from the Bible. If so, then we need a verse in the Bible that plainly and clearly tells us about the Trinity. While other verses may be suggestive of the Trinity, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse (in the KJV) that makes this truth clear. For if a man was stranded on an island and he had no clue about Christianity, his chances of understanding the Trinity are far better if a King James Bible washed upon on shore, instead of an NIV. For 1 John 5:7 would tell this man about the Trinity in a direct way. No other verse does this.
Correct. You're right.
What I'm saying is that a person could read ANY bible,,,
and come to salvation.

As you surely know, the Trinity was confirmed by doctrine in the Nicene Creed in 325AD. But even if a person does not even know about the Trinity, he would still be saved.
 
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Yet, I read the NIV before I became a Christian and it was the NIV that led me to become a Christian. I understood it was the trilogy when reading that verse.

1 John 5:7 (as it appears in the KJV) is not in any NIV. You could not possibly know about the Trinity from an NIV unless somebody implanted that thinking in your mind previously.

You said:
Your statement is not true.

KJVO is from the pits of hell to create division and reading your posts in this thread shows that with at least one person he is succeeding.

This is why it is a spiritual issue. You do not even realize what you are saying.
Anyways, Peace be unto you in the Lord.
 
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Correct. You're right.
What I'm saying is that a person could read ANY bible,,,
and come to salvation.

As you surely know, the Trinity was confirmed by doctrine in the Nicene Creed in 325AD. But even if a person does not even know about the Trinity, he would still be saved.

I don't believe the Trinity is derived from the creed, but the Trinity is derived from the Scriptures. This is how those who wrote the creed were able to know of the Trinity. It was by NT Scripture.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't believe the Trinity is derived from the creed, but the Trinity is derived from the Scriptures. This is how those who wrote the creed were able to know of the TrinityT. It was by NT Scripture.
I didn't say the Trinity was DERIVED from the Council of Nicea...it was DERIVED from the N.T.

It was EXPLAINED and made DOCTRINE at the council of Nicea....IOW....

It's necessary to believe the Creed to be called a Christian.

And, it's a lot more complicated than 1 John 5:7....
it took theologians of that time to understand it well and pass the information on to us.
 
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Correct. You're right.
What I'm saying is that a person could read ANY bible,,,
and come to salvation.

As you surely know, the Trinity was confirmed by doctrine in the Nicene Creed in 325AD. But even if a person does not even know about the Trinity, he would still be saved.

Salvation in my view is progressive. We can be saved initially without knowing about the Trinity, but I believe that when that truth is revealed to us by Scripture, we cannot reject such a truth and continue to maintain salvation. For they that worship God must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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I didn't say the Trinity was DERIVED from the Council of Nicea...it was DERIVED from the N.T.

It was EXPLAINED and made DOCTRINE at the council of Nicea....IOW....

It's necessary to believe the Creed to be called a Christian.

And, it's a lot more complicated than 1 John 5:7....
it took theologians of that time to understand it well and pass the information on to us.

I believe this truth is not discovered by just those in the past. I believe a person can know of this truth today without knowing about a church or Christian organization telling them about the Trinity. They worshiped the same God that we do today.
 
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I didn't say the Trinity was DERIVED from the Council of Nicea...it was DERIVED from the N.T.

It was EXPLAINED and made DOCTRINE at the council of Nicea....IOW....

It's necessary to believe the Creed to be called a Christian.

And, it's a lot more complicated than 1 John 5:7....
it took theologians of that time to understand it well and pass the information on to us.

I did not come to know of the creed until joined this website. I come to know of the Trinity via by a comic tract ministry, and by Protestant churches. They did not mention anything about a creed. They just referred to the Bible. Those in the creed derived their understanding from the Scriptures, as well. So the origin of the Trinity is not the creed, but it is the Holy Scriptures. This is why it is important that we have the right Bible that does talk about the Trinity.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I believe this truth is not discovered by just those in the past. I believe a person can know of this truth today without knowing about a church or Christian organization telling them about the Trinity. They worshiped the same God that we do today.
I kind of agree...but not fully.

A person can read the bible and understand that there is a FATHER....a SON and a SPIRIT.

But will they understand that the Spirit is a person?
Does Jesus ever use the term Holy Spirit? I can't remember right now...I don't think so.

Will they come away believing that there are 3 gods?
How could they understand that there are 3 Gods in 1 God or 3 PERSONS in 1 GOD?

I do believe this would not be understood by most persons,,,if any - unless they were theologically inclined.
 
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I did not come to know of the creed until joined this website. I come to know of the Trinity via by a comic tract ministry, and by Protestant churches. They did not mention anything about a creed. They just referred to the Bible. Those in the creed derived their understanding from the Scriptures, as well. So the origin of the Trinity is not the creed, but it is the Holy Scriptures. This is why it is important that we have the right Bible that does talk about the Trinity.
Well,,,you just proved my point in my post just before this one.

You learned about the Trinity by a comic tract ministry and by Protestant churches.

Like I said,,,it's really difficult that one could come to understand the Trinity on their own.

And I'm not sure anyone REALLY understands it !
 
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