Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

[Francis Drake]

I bought 2 heavily discounted loaves of rye bread at a supermarket the other day. There were flecks of yeast mould on them.
Yummy I thought, I bet I can brew them into beer or something.

Sure enough, I found a simple recipe for Kvass, a Russian light beer of around 2%.
I also found a recipe for bread champagne in an ancient homebrew book.

I'm looking forward to yet more fun with my beer and wine making exploits.

I've got around 20 gallons (English 8Pt gallons) of various alcoholic concoctions brewed from the hedgerows last year, plus a barrel of cider, (all cider in UK is alcoholic, otherwise its just apple juice.)

All those who obsess against alcohol don't seem to realise that turning fruit juice into alcohol was an automatic result of nature, whether you like it or not.
Until recently, it was impossible to keep grapes or grape juice without it fermenting.

 

[bèlla]

All those who obsess against alcohol don't seem to realise that turning fruit juice into alcohol was an automatic result of nature, whether you like it or not. Until recently, it was impossible to keep grapes or grape juice without it fermenting.

I experienced this with a batch of homemade ginger beer. The jar was near the window and the fermentation process went further than I knew. I didn't realize what happened until I tasted it.

 

[Francis Drake]

Your not getting it. Alcohol is like a sleeping beast awaiting to strike at the right moment in your life when life might get hard. Meanwhile, you are partaking of a drug and not a food that has no nutritional value and it seeks to attack your immune system and your body. Alcohol is a slow and subtle killer.

You are highly more likely to get drunk if you are already drinking moderately drinking instead of if you are against it.

Website links (like the one below) would not exist if there was not a problem to even moderate drinking.

Drinker's Check-up

That's just self righteous fear mongering.
I'd rather take a leaf out of Jesus's book than yours.

Jesus said, "I only do what I see my father doing", and then turned water into the very best wine!

I've been trying my best at turning water into wine. It takes a lot of additives like fruit sugar and yeast, and although its not too bad, its nowhere near the best like Jesus's!

 

[Francis Drake]

Christians are told to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

The first sip of alcohol makes you less sober minded than you were before because it instantly starts to work at impairing your good judgment.

Drivel.
Unless you are accusing Jesus of these things.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Your not getting it. Alcohol is like a sleeping beast awaiting to strike at the right moment in your life when life might get hard. Meanwhile, you are partaking of a drug and not a food that has no nutritional value and it seeks to attack your immune system and your body. Alcohol is a slow and subtle killer.

You are highly more likely to get drunk if you are already drinking moderately drinking instead of if you are against it.

Website links (like the one below) would not exist if there was not a problem to even moderate drinking.

Drinker's Check-up

I think the point here is that you have a personal problem with alcohol and will try to fit the Bible into your viewpoints. That's fine, just stop judging others for actually reading text as is.

I mean really? You accuse me of not using a "divinely inspired encyclopedia" impling there is one. The opposite of what you said is true, temperance now days refers almost strictly to alcohol, where as back then it was a much broader category. The modern temperance movement redefined the word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I bought 2 heavily discounted loaves of rye bread at a supermarket the other day. There were flecks of yeast mould on them.
Yummy I thought, I bet I can brew them into beer or something.

Sure enough, I found a simple recipe for Kvass, a Russian light beer of around 2%.
I also found a recipe for bread champagne in an ancient homebrew book.

I'm looking forward to yet more fun with my beer and wine making exploits.

I've got around 20 gallons (English 8Pt gallons) of various alcoholic concoctions brewed from the hedgerows last year, plus a barrel of cider, (all cider in UK is alcoholic, otherwise its just apple juice.)

All those who obsess against alcohol don't seem to realise that turning fruit juice into alcohol was an automatic result of nature, whether you like it or not.
Until recently, it was impossible to keep grapes or grape juice without it fermenting.

How does glorifying a substance by partaking in it's making glorify God? Alcoholic beverages of today is one of the top killers here in America because it is highly addictive and get easily lead to drunkenness and alcoholism and can potentially harm others in many ways beyond your imagining.

Also, I know of no Christian Prohibitionists who think that alcohol does not ferment. Granted, there are cases where intense rainy seasons can wash off the natural yeast on grapes and prevent natural fermentation. But you make it sound like the grapes are already alcoholic by the way you talk about wine.

Furthermore, unless you believe teetotalers are in on some kind of conspiracy to corrupt history, history confirms that there were methods of preserving grape juice in ancient times. But you would actually have to do the research to discover that fact for yourself. If not, then you believe whatever you want to believe in favor of a drug that destroys lives every day.

But this is irrelevant because the Israelite bought, stored, and transported wine in in it's fermented state, and then when it came time to drink it, they diluted it with water of it's intoxicating effects. Wine was also useful in purifying bad water and in easing extreme pain. But if the wine at the wedding of Cana was alcoholic, then Jesus would be contributing to their drunkenness because it says that they were "well drunk" with whatever substance that they were partaking in at the wedding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Drivel.
Unless you are accusing Jesus of these things.

How does your reply here undo what I have said with Scripture?
It doesn't.
The Bible tells you to be sober minded.
Are you more sober minded without the alcohol or with the alcohol?

 

[Archivist]

Again, not the same thing. Alcohol is a poison and an addictive drug.

I see. So it is alright to behave in ways that could trigger someone to stumble so long as it does not involve alcohol. And alcohol is not a poison, consumed in moderation it actually has several medical benefits plus our Lord and Savior--who drank wine--would not have consumed poison.

Because the Bible condemns the defiling or destroying of your body by drugs. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul says if we defile our body, God will destroy us.

In the vast majority of cases moderate consumption of alcohol does not destroy one's body. As has been said over and over and over, those who cannot handle alcohol should not drink.

So people should experiment with this deadly drug to find out if they have a problem with alcohol?

I never said that. I have a friend who does not drink because his father was an alcoholic. He fears that it could run in the family and sop has never touch alcohol. He didn't experiment to learn that.

Right, and older dictionaries define wine as either an unfermented fruit juice or a fermented fruit juice. We know Jesus drank unfermented fruit juice at the Lord's supper because they called it the: "fruit of the vine." Alcoholic fermented wine is no longer the fruit of the vine anymore but it is another changed substance. Any fruit or nutrients is no longer viable to the person who drinks of such a substance or drug. Yeast has eaten the sugars in the fruit, and it has changed into a different chemical (ethanol). It is not longer the fruit of the vine, but it is something else.

No, it has already been shown that fermented wine was used at the Lord's Supper. Unfermented grape juice could not have been stored that long. That is why the vast majority of Christians take Holy Communion using wine, not grape juice.

I would rather play it safe, than be sorry. I would rather take the chance on living longer and not drink. What benefit does it serve? There is no nutritional value, and it opens yourself up to potential alcoholism, drunk driving, and in influencing others in a bad way.

Again, moderate use of alcohol has health benefits. Given that I have had heart issues and moderate consumption of alcohol promotes cardiovascular health, I will probably increase my lifespan by drinking moderately.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the point here is that you have a personal problem with alcohol and will try to fit the Bible into your viewpoints. That's fine, just stop judging others for actually reading text as is.

If you know something is a sin, would you not speak out against it and warn your fellow brethren out of love so as to lead them into paths of righteousness for the Lord's name sake? I know I sure would. So what you call judging, I call preaching the truth of God's Word. What you call judging is my loving others enough to warn them of the destruction of what this thing called alcohol can do to their lives.

I mean really? You accuse me of not using a "divinely inspired encyclopedia" impling there is one.

You quoted it from the KJV Dictionary and acted like that is what the Bible was saying when it was actually from a general dictionary (Whereby words can have multiple meanings or definitions). You have chosen the definition in the dictionary to fit your presupposition because you favor alcohol. Let me ask you: Was there ever a point in your life where you prayed and sought out Scripture to see if you may be wrong on this topic? Did you seriously look at the other viewpoint and regard it as possibly being true?

The opposite of what you said is true, temperance now days refers almost strictly to alcohol, where as back then it was a much broader category. The modern temperance movement redefined the word.

I believe you are only saying that because you favor alcohol, and not because you did some kind of deep study on this matter.

Also, it is possible that men who want to defend alcohol could have made stuff up about teetotalers, as well. People will go to any length to justify things that are not in line with God's will. I would tend to be more suspicious of people who were trying to justify a pleasure of this world that destroys lives than those who were trying to teach us to pick up our cross, and deny ourselves so as to follow the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the point here is that you have a personal problem with alcohol and will try to fit the Bible into your viewpoints. That's fine, just stop judging others for actually reading text as is.

I mean really? You accuse me of not using a "divinely inspired encyclopedia" impling there is one. The opposite of what you said is true, temperance now days refers almost strictly to alcohol, where as back then it was a much broader category. The modern temperance movement redefined the word.

Do you believe the men at the wedding feast at Cana were "well drunk" with intoxicating wine? Did Jesus make even more intoxicating wine and thus contribute to their drunkenness? Does not Paul say that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God? (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

One more.

The Bible tells us believers to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2 ) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Are you more sober minded without the alcohol or with the alcohol?

I would say that even one sip of alcohol makes me less sober minded than when I was not effected by the alcohol.

 

[Ronald]

I drank that horrendous, lethal poison for the second time in my life last night. It is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! First it felt kind of good, but memorizing that, it was more about losing self-control than being happy. I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see! Or maybe I will stay at home due to hangover. I wish there was a worlwide prohibition for the next thousand years or so because no one needs to drink that anti-life, anti-happiness, Satanic psychoactive narcotic poison. At least 50 000 000 000 life years, or 50 BILLLION, have been lost directly due to this chemical during the history of mankind, and much more because of lost productivity and thus less charity to help poor countries in birth control and food security.

Now why does the Bible have verses such as these:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine...

Ecclesiastes 9:7
...drink your wine with a joyful heart...

In John 2:3-11, our beloved God turns jarfuls of delicious water into disgusting wine. Why?

The Bible doesn’t say do not drink to all, only those who are priests, pastors, in authority, during specific times, etc. For all, the Bible says do not get DRUNK. Wine is good for stomach problems and also those who suffer stress from bitterness. Strong drink is suggested for those who are dying. Moderation in drinking is fine, but not habitual drinking.



Leviticus 10:8-11 And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying, “Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them by Moses.”

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20-21 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

Proverbs 31:4-7 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 5:11-12 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them! They have lyre and harp, tambourine and flute and wine at their feasts, but they do not regard the deeds of the Lord, or see the work of his hands.

Isaiah 28:1, 7 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim, and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine! These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15 “Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Luke 21:34 “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.

Ephesians 5:17-19 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,

1 Timothy 3:2-3 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 3:11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.

2 Timothy 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 Peter 4:3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.



Bottom of Form

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible doesn’t say do not drink to all, only those who are priests, pastors, in authority, during specific times, etc. For all, the Bible says do not get DRUNK. Wine is good for stomach problems and also those who suffer stress from bitterness. Strong drink is suggested for those who are dying. Moderation in drinking is fine, but not habitual drinking.



Leviticus 10:8-11 And the Lord spoke to Aaron, saying, “Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them by Moses.”

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20-21 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

Proverbs 31:4-7 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 5:11-12 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them! They have lyre and harp, tambourine and flute and wine at their feasts, but they do not regard the deeds of the Lord, or see the work of his hands.

Isaiah 28:1, 7 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim, and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine! These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

Habakkuk 2:15 “Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Luke 21:34 “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.

Ephesians 5:17-19 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,

1 Timothy 3:2-3 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 3:11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.

2 Timothy 4:5 As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

1 Peter 4:3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night.



Bottom of Form

I believe the Bible teaches that there are three kinds of wines.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 20:1) (Proverbs 23:31) (1 Timothy 3:1-3).

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 9:2) (1 Timothy 5:23).

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage)
(Genesis 40:11) (Isaiah 65:8) (Deuteronomy 32:14) (Matthew 26:29).​

I believe the Israelite bought, stored, and transported intoxicating fermented wine (Wine Type #1), and they used it to purify water, and ease pain, etc.; But when it came time to drink it for social reasons, or to have with a meal, they diluted it with several parts of water (Wine Type #2). History confirms this. Also, the Bible alludes to this fact, as well.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:
2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

Jesus made and only drank unfermented wine (a non-intoxicating beverage) (Wine Type #3). There are six reasons in Scripture that supports this fact (See my post #62).


Side Note:

Also, please see my two challenging statements (with Scripture) in Post #150. I would like to see how you would respond to them using the Bible.

 

[SPF]

It's not for no reason that Scripture speaks against drunkenness instead of merely drinking. The distinction is important. If it was a sin to drink alcohol for any reason other than medication, then it wouldn't consistently talk about drunkenness as what the sin is.

Here is a list of the three types of wine mentioned in Scripture:

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 20:1) (Proverbs 23:31) (1 Timothy 3:1-3).

#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
(Proverbs 9:2) (1 Timothy 5:23).

#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage)
(Genesis 40:11) (Isaiah 65:8) (Deuteronomy 32:14) (Matthew 26:29).

The problem with the above is that the implication is that alcohol type #1 would be sinful to drink. But that sort of fails the test when we take the time to actually look at Scripture.

Deu. 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

The word used in the above passage unfortunately is the same word in the #1 passages.

The bottom line really is that there are numerous examples in Scripture of people drinking alcohol and it simply not considered a sin in context.

Johnny Hunt, a very well known and famous Baptist Preacher and teetotaler is someone I have respect for in this debate. The reason is that he's honest enough when it comes to interpreting Scripture to recognize that Jesus did indeed turn water into wine. His argument is that the wine wasn't strong. It was weak. His argument is that the alcohol we have today is of such a stronger content than that of Biblical times.

The problem is that his argument is based upon what Scripture calls "strong drink" as being the alcohol that is sinful. But as the passage quoted above demonstrates, even "strong drink" from Scripture isn't always wrong.

The fact is we just can't escape that Scripture specifically speaks against drunkenness. This would logically mean that drinking that does not involve drunkenness is not sinful.

 

[Archivist]

If you know something is a sin, would you not speak out against it and warn your fellow brethren out of love so as to lead them into paths of righteousness for the Lord's name sake? I know I sure would. So what you call judging, I call preaching the truth of God's Word. What you call judging is my loving others enough to warn them of the destruction of what this thing called alcohol can do to their lives.

But you are not "preaching the truth of God's Word," you are providing your interpretation of God's Word. And don't get me wrong, you are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation, but it isn't what others of us see when we read Scripture.

You quoted it from the KJV Dictionary and acted like that is what the Bible was saying when it was actually from a general dictionary (Whereby words can have multiple meanings or definitions). You have chosen the definition in the dictionary to fit your presupposition because you favor alcohol.

And you have chosen definitions taht supppport your anti-alcohol views.

Let me ask you: Was there ever a point in your life where you prayed and sought out Scripture to see if you may be wrong on this topic? Did you seriously look at the other viewpoint and regard it as possibly being true?

Those same questions could be asked of you.

Also, it is possible that men who want to defend alcohol could have made stuff up about teetotalers, as well. People will go to any length to justify things that are not in line with God's will. I would tend to be more suspicious of people who were trying to justify a pleasure of this world that destroys lives than those who were trying to teach us to pick up our cross, and deny ourselves so as to follow the Lord.

Yet the vast majority of Christians use wine--yes, with alcohol--when they take communion. That was been the case until the late 1700s/early 1800s when the temperance movement began.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Do you believe the men at the wedding feast at Cana were "well drunk" with intoxicating wine? Did Jesus make even more intoxicating wine and thus contribute to their drunkenness? Does not Paul say that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God? (See 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

One more.

The Bible tells us believers to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2 ) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Are you more sober minded without the alcohol or with the alcohol?

I would say that even one sip of alcohol makes me less sober minded than when I was not effected by the alcohol.

Drunkenness is an adjective describing repedative behavior. Scripture just doesn't say what you want it to. As a chronically depressed person the few times I drink it puts me in a much more positive mood and I'm more loving to the people around me. I can drink half a bottle and not be inhibited. It's just different for every person.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's not for no reason that Scripture speaks against drunkenness instead of merely drinking. The distinction is important. If it was a sin to drink alcohol for any reason other than medication, then it wouldn't consistently talk about drunkenness as what the sin is.

In the OT, it spoke against adultery, and yet Jesus clarified adultery even more for us by saying that it also involves looking at another in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus and John both clarified murder being more than just the physical act, as well. John says that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15).

The problem with the above is that the implication is that alcohol type #1 would be sinful to drink. But that sort of fails the test when we take the time to actually look at Scripture.

Wine type #1 is sinful. It's a poison or drug and it offers no nutritional value and it attacks your immune system immediately. It also makes you less sober minded than when you were before you were sober minded without the alcohol.

Scripture commands Christians to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2 ) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Are you more sober or less sober after taking a sip of alcohol?

Please keep in mind that alcohol is a depressant.

Deu. 14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

As I stated before, the Israelite bought fermented wine, stored fermented wine, and even traveled with fermented wine, but the way they drank it was in a diluted state. They kept in a fermented state because it would last longer, and it was able to ease pain and purify water. Wine was diluted with water so that they would not become intoxicated like today's wines.

The word used in the above passage unfortunately is the same word in the #1 passages.

The bottom line really is that there are numerous examples in Scripture of people drinking alcohol and it simply not considered a sin in context.

Not at all. Please show me one. Just because the word "wine" appears does not mean it is talking about fermented wine. You have to show that by the context. Dictionaries define the word "wine" as either a fermented fruit juice or an unfermented fruit juice. People today just automatically think of alcohol when they hear the word "wine" and that is their own party driven culture influencing their thinking on the matter.

Johnny Hunt, a very well known and famous Baptist Preacher and teetotaler is someone I have respect for in this debate. The reason is that he's honest enough when it comes to interpreting Scripture to recognize that Jesus did indeed turn water into wine. His argument is that the wine wasn't strong. It was weak. His argument is that the alcohol we have today is of such a stronger content than that of Biblical times.

Right, I am of the same position; I believe the wine was diluted with water. The wine was not also cultivated with special yeasts like today's wines so as to get a higher alcohol content, too.

The problem is that his argument is based upon what Scripture calls "strong drink" as being the alcohol that is sinful. But as the passage quoted above demonstrates, even "strong drink" from Scripture isn't always wrong.

The fact is we just can't escape that Scripture specifically speaks against drunkenness. This would logically mean that drinking that does not involve drunkenness is not sinful.

If you were an Israelite back under the OT, it was not wrong if you purchased it and your intent was not to get drunk off of it, and you were to dilute it with water. Gentile barbarians such as ourselves were always known for getting drunk, and having parties, etc. (Which comes from drinking strong intoxicating wine).

"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine [getting drunk], revellings, banquetings [drinking parties], and abominable idolatries:" (1 Peter 4:3).

Why do you think we are told not to look at wine when it was red and it moves itself aright?

 

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Drunkenness is an adjective describing repedative behavior. Scripture just doesn't say what you want it to. As a chronically depressed person the few times I drink it puts me in a much more positive mood and I'm more loving to the people around me. I can drink half a bottle and not be inhibited. It's just different for every person.

No. Your reaction time is slowed if you were to drive behind a motor vehicle and you can put at risk the lives of others (thereby not loving them). For say you drank, and an emergency came up where you felt you had to drive (like a fire, or something else), and you did not react fast enough in driving and you hit a person? A split second decision could have been prevented by your not drinking.

 

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But you are not "preaching the truth of God's Word," you are providing your interpretation of God's Word. And don't get me wrong, you are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation, but it isn't what others of us see when we read Scripture.

It's not my opinion. Stop and think for a moment. Jesus is holy, right? Is not yeast used in wine making? Was not yeast a picture or symbol of sin within the Bible? The wine represents Jesus's blood that washes away our sins. If the wine had yeast in it, that means that sin was in His blood. How could sinful blood wash away sin? Jesus bore our sins within his body and it is His shed blood that washes away our sins. There are so many other things like this, that you have to willingly ignore in order to make your defense of alcohol actually work.

And you have chosen definitions taht supppport your anti-alcohol views.

Not at the expense of the context or in light of what the rest of the Bible says.

Those same questions could be asked of you.

Your avoidance of the answer suggests that you may not have ever done such a thing. Oh, and yes; I did do so myself on this topic. There was a point where I did not know what to believe on this topic when I first studied it and I prayed and compared Scripture with Scripture and read tons of articles online on the subject. But the more I studied, I went from being Undecided, to being an Abstentionist, to studying some more and I have now become a Prohibitionist (Not because I wanted to be one, but because that is where Scripture has led me).

Yet the vast majority of Christians use wine--yes, with alcohol--when they take communion. That was been the case until the late 1700s/early 1800s when the temperance movement began.

Not true. The Bible says they drank of the "fruit of the vine" in the Lord's supper. The fruit of the vine is not ethanol (Which is a different substance than fresh fruit juices that are from the vine). Alcohol is the poop (by-product) of the yeast after it eats the fruit of the vine.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no safe dose of alcohol for these reasons:

• Alcohol is a toxin that kills cells such as microorganisms, which is why we use it to preserve food and sterilise skin, needles etc. Alcohol kills humans too. A dose only four times as high as the amount that would make blood levels exceed drink-driving limits in the UK can kill. The toxicity of alcohol is worsened because in order for it to be cleared from the body it has to be metabolised to acetaldehyde, an even more toxic substance. Any food or drink contaminated with the amount of acetaldehyde that a unit of alcohol produces would be immediately banned as having an unacceptable health risk.

• Although most people do not become addicted to alcohol on their first drink, a small proportion do. As a clinical psychiatrist who has worked with alcoholics for more than 30 years, I have seen many people who have experienced a strong liking of alcohol from their very first exposure and then gone on to become addicted to it. We cannot at present predict who these people will be, so any exposure to alcohol runs the risk of producing addiction in some users.

• The supposed cardiovascular benefits of a low level of alcohol intake in some middle-aged men cannot be taken as proof that alcohol is beneficial. To do that one would need a randomised trial where part of this group drink no alcohol, others drink in small amounts and others more heavily. Until this experiment has been done we don't have proof that alcohol has health benefits. A recent example of where an epidemiological association was found not to be true when tested properly was hormone replacement therapy. Population observations suggested that HRT was beneficial for post-menopausal women, but when controlled trials were conducted it was found to cause more harm than good.

• For all other diseases associated with alcohol there is no evidence of any benefit of low alcohol intake – the risks of accidents, cancer, ulcers etc rise inexorably with intake.

Source used:
There is no such thing as a safe level of alcohol consumption | Professor David Nutt

 

[☦Marius☦]

In the OT, it spoke against adultery, and yet Jesus clarified adultery even more for us by saying that it also involves looking at another in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus and John both clarified murder being more than just the physical act, as well. John says that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no eternal life abides in us (1 John 3:15).



Wine type #1 is sinful. It's a poison or drug and it offers no nutritional value and it attacks your immune system immediately. It also makes you less sober minded than when you were before you were sober minded without the alcohol.

Scripture commands Christians to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13) (1 Peter 4:7) (1 Timothy 3:2) (1 Timothy 3:11) (Titus 1:8) (Titus 2:2 ) (Titus 2:4) (Titus 2:6) (Titus 2:12) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

Are you more sober or less sober after taking a sip of alcohol?

Please keep in mind that alcohol is a depressant.



As I stated before, the Israelite bought fermented wine, stored fermented wine, and even traveled with fermented wine, but the way they drank it was in a diluted state. They kept in a fermented state because it would last longer, and it was able to ease pain and purify water. Wine was diluted with water so that they would not become intoxicated like today's wines.



Not at all. Please show me one. Just because the word "wine" appears does not mean it is talking about fermented wine. You have to show that by the context. Dictionaries define the word "wine" as either a fermented fruit juice or an unfermented fruit juice. People today just automatically think of alcohol when they hear the word "wine" and that is their own party driven culture influencing their thinking on the matter.



Right, I am of the same position; I believe the wine was diluted with water. The wine was not also cultivated with special yeasts like today's wines so as to get a higher alcohol content, too.



If you were an Israelite back under the OT, it was not wrong if you purchased it and your intent was not to get drunk off of it, and you were to dilute it with water. Gentile barbarians such as ourselves were always known for getting drunk, and having parties, etc. (Which comes from drinking strong intoxicating wine).

"For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine [getting drunk], revellings, banquetings [drinking parties], and abominable idolatries:" (1 Peter 4:3).

Why do you think we are told not to look at wine when it was red and it moves itself aright?

No. Your reaction time is slowed if you were to drive behind a motor vehicle and you can put at risk the lives of others (thereby not loving them). For say you drank, and an emergency came up where you felt you had to drive (like a fire, or something else), and you did not react fast enough in driving and you hit a person? A split second decision could have been prevented by your not drinking.

Lol you sound like you've never drunk before yet are trying to tell me how my body reacts? There is a reason there is a legal amount of blood alcohol content.

Also as for the Jews- you keep saying they deluted the wine, yet what evidence do you have? Do you really think that they were so different then us that they didn't drink wine for the effect as well? The Bible even warns against strong drink, so they clearly had stronger alcohols that they drank.

You are creating a false scenario around a complete manipulation of the few verses you can find that come somewhat close to your claim (despite them teaching self control and not complete a abstinence).

No one is going to be taken in by this false narrative because to the rest of us it's pretty obvious.