Bible Banning??? In Christianity???

rockytopva

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Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should not be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229

No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days, so that they may be burned.- The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. ... - Psalms 1

How can we expect to be blessed by God when the source of his blessings is banned???
 

prodromos

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How can we expect to be blessed by God when the source of his blessings is banned???
They would have heard the Scriptures read at every Mass.
 
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SeventyOne

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They would have heard the Scriptures read at every Mass.

Assuming thy were RC, and assuming it wasn't in Latin, but in a language they could understand. It also wouldn't have been the scripture in its entirety, which they would have equal rights to as any church "leader" (as if the Church has hierarchies) from any age.
 
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rockytopva

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I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. Not wanting the public to have scripture is a form of control and domination. And as the church councils of Toulouse and Tarragona were in the mid-ages, or the 1200's, suggests that this is the Thyatirean spirit at work.

Now, I do not believe that the spirit of Jezebel as a current factor in these Laodicean times... But she could raise her head up again. I believe that this spirit of Jezebel is currently in the religion of Islam. But even still... I do not see any Islamic faction prohibiting the owning of the Qur'an!
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should not be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229

No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days, so that they may be burned.- The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. ... - Psalms 1

How can we expect to be blessed by God when the source of his blessings is banned???
Obviously, this canon is still not in effect. I have no idea when it was stopped, but I've met quite a few catholics who read their bible daily.
 
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hedrick

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These sorts of things were in certain locations for certain periods. The bans were generally done when "heretics" were using Scripture to attack the Church. There wasn't any kind of general or permanent ban on access to Scripture, though of course for practical reasons most people couldn't get copies or read them.
 
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prodromos

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Assuming thy were RC, and assuming it wasn't in Latin, but in a language they could understand. It also wouldn't have been the scripture in its entirety, which they would have equal rights to as any church "leader" (as if the Church has hierarchies) from any age.
It is my understanding that if you attend all the services throughout the year in the Catholic Church, that in the course of one year you will hear the Scriptures read in their entirety.
I am not Catholic so cannot confirm whether or not what I have been told is true, but have no reason to doubt it is.
 
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SeventyOne

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It is my understanding that if you attend all the services throughout the year in the Catholic Church, that in the course of one year you will hear the Scriptures read in their entirety.
I am not Catholic so cannot confirm whether or not what I have been told is true, but have no reason to doubt it is.

I think you're talking about a liturgical mass, one where teachings are read from a lectionary, which isn't scripture itself, but touches on highlighted portions spread out over several years.
 
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rockytopva

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John Wycliffe is credited for having the first bible translated into English. Wycliffe's Bible appears to have been completed by 1384, with additional updated versions being done by Wycliffe's assistant John Purvey and others in 1388 and 1395. The Council of Constance declared Wycliffe a heretic on 4 May 1415, and banned his writings. The Council decreed that Wycliffe's works should be burned and his remains removed from consecrated ground. This order, confirmed by Pope Martin V, was carried out in 1428. Wycliffe's corpse was exhumed and burned and the ashes cast into the River Swift, which flows through Lutterworth.
 
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prodromos

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I think you're talking about a liturgical mass, one where teachings are read from a lectionary, which isn't scripture itself, but touches on highlighted portions spread out over several years.
I think I will let the Catholics confirm this, one way or the other. In the Orthodox Church the bulk of the Liturgy is Scripture. There are readings during Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy, and our primary hymn book is the Psalms.
 
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Winken

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Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should not be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229

No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days, so that they may be burned.- The Church Council of Tarragona 1234 AD

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. ... - Psalms 1

How can we expect to be blessed by God when the source of his blessings is banned???

Huh?
 
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PloverWing

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I think I will let the Catholics confirm this, one way or the other.
I'm Episcopalian, but we use approximately the same lectionary as the Catholics. The lectionary is a three-year schedule of readings: on a particular Sunday, we'll read a section of the Old Testament, a Psalm, and two sections of the New Testament. The sections tend to be about a chapter each, but length varies. Over the course of three years, we'll read most of the Bible during the Sunday morning services. The lectionary does skip some parts of the Bible (it doesn't include the "begats", for example), but most of the Bible is included.

Our Book of Common Prayer has a second two-year schedule of readings for our daily morning and evening prayer services. This second set of readings includes all of the Bible, "begats" and all. Catholics, can you confirm whether you have a comprehensive schedule of readings like this for daily services?
 
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CrystalDragon

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I think I will let the Catholics confirm this, one way or the other. In the Orthodox Church the bulk of the Liturgy is Scripture. There are readings during Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy, and our primary hymn book is the Psalms.

While us Catholics do read the Scriptures at Mass (two readings and part of the Gospel), I don't believe it covers the entire Bible, just most of the main parts and skipping the unsavory parts (and I've never heard the Mass talk about the commandments that are actually said to be the Ten Commandments.
 
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teagranny

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It is my understanding that if you attend all the services throughout the year in the Catholic Church, that in the course of one year you will hear the Scriptures read in their entirety.
I am not Catholic so cannot confirm whether or not what I have been told is true, but have no reason to doubt it is.

I am (was) Catholic, attended very regularly in a few different towns I lived in, I can say for sure that I would never have heard the Bible read in its entirety in my lifetime from the Catholic pulpit. I also attended Catechism and young peoples classes, the amount of Bible reading there greatly depended on who was teaching.
 
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john.a

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Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, let us remember:

a) There is a context to these councils: the reappearance of the Albigensians, Bogomils and Cathar heretics.
b) These are local councils for local problems dealing with temporary issues and not universal councils proclaiming eternal and universal practices.
c) John Wycliffe was not the first person to translate the Bible into English.
d) Contrary to popular opinion, Catholics were allowed, in many places and times prior to the Reformation to own vernacular Bibles.
e) The Catholic Church did not at all encourage Catholics to be ignorant of the Bible by hiding it in Latin. This is Protestant myth and polemic.
f) The Liturgy or the Mass is filled with Scripture, not only in the readings but in the prayers and whatever was not in the Mass could be found in the daily prayers (Mattins and Vespers) offered in the morning and in the evening in the Churches.

* * *

a) The Church of Toulouse and Tarragona encountered the reappearance of a certain breed of neo-Gnostic heretic which would horrify even modern-day Protestants. Generally they tended to believe that the material universe was created by a satanic demiurge who was either equal to God or God's oldest son. Jesus was an angel with a phantom body and not a material body. They encouraged sexual abstinence and discouraged marriage and temporal, material pleasures were all deemed sinful. They denied the Trinity, tending to believe in modalism or something similar. They denied the importance of Baptism, Holy Communion and they had only one sacrament called the Consolamentum which may seem similar to modern Protestant ideas of "baptism in the Spirit" but was ritualistic which Protestants tend to reject. After this one sacrament of theirs, they were expected to become vegetarians and abstain from all sexuality and at the end of their lives they would undertake a difficult fast which was believed to cleanse the soul from the material pollution of the body and this sacrifice, rather than the sacrifice of Christ, was often considered to be what reunified the believer to Christ.

b) The bishops of Toulouse and Tarragona reacted quickly. Knowing that pious orthodox Catholic Christians tended to be the illiterate, innocent peasants who clung to the true Christian faith and knowing that this heresy was being promoted and growing widespread among the richer, literate Bible readers, they acted quickly to stamp out this heresy. These local councils are not meant to be a universal declaration to the entire Catholic Church in all dioceses, nor was it meant to be a declaration that would stand forever.

c) John Wycliffe was not the first person to translate the Bible into English. He was the first person to translate the Bible in its entirety into English. In fact, we have evidence in history that the Bible was being translated into Old English, the language of the earliest Anglo-Saxon Christians as early as the 7th century A.D. Large sections of the Bible, particularly the Gospels, were translated into English centuries before Wycliffe or the Reformation and these translations tended to exist as separate books, since, in many parts of the world, the idea that the Bible was a library composed of several books had still survived. One of our English saints, the venerable St. Bede, is famous for his interlinear Latin-English translations. He was also not alone as many monks made many similar interlinear translations.

d) Before the Reformation and afterwards, literate and richer English-speaking Catholics proudly owned English Bibles and we have some of their wills surviving to the modern day which indicate that their Bibles were to be handed down in their family throughout the generations. The Douay-Rheims is a famous post-Reformation translation that was actually finished prior to the King James Version and many of the KJV turns of phrases were straight up borrowed from the Douay-Rheims.

e) The Latin Church did not need to translate the Latin Vulgate into the vernacular languages in Romanised Europe because the Romance-speaking populations could still understand Latin and actually thought of their vernacular (what we would call Old French, Old Spanish, Old Italian, etc.) as the same as the Latin language as late as 7th century. After this period, the mystery, nobility and learnedness of the older Latin was cemented in the minds of the laity and hierarchy alike and none of the Romance-speaking populations wanted the liturgy to be in anything but the language which their fathers had used. When the Catholic populations could not understand the Latin Mass, either in non-Romance speaking regions before the 7th century, or in Romance-speaking regions afterwards, they relied on translations made by the monks or oral transmission of the biblical stories passed on from parents to children.

f) The Mass readings for Sunday in ancient times go through most of the significant chunks of the New Testament and parts of the Old Testament in just one year. Coupled with the morning and evening prayer (Mattins and Vespers) which was prayed daily, much of the most important parts of the Bible is heard by the population in a whole year. After decades of praying and attending liturgy, the more pious Catholics knew Scripture in their bones. After Vatican II in the 1960s, almost the entirety of the Bible is covered in the Sunday Mass alone every three years and if we were to include weekday Masses and the Mattins and Vespers during the week, the entire Bible (as well as many commentaries written by the Fathers) is heard and proclaimed to the people every two years.

* * *

It is sad that after 500 years there is still so much anti-Catholicism among Protestants. Rather than doing research, many still seem to enjoy perpetuating the same myths. Why not simply live the faith as you understand it and share it with those who have not yet come to know Christ rather than spending time and energy slandering those who have clung to the faith throughout the centuries and have known no other God but Christ?
 
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Kristen Johnson

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How can we expect to be blessed by God when the source of his blessings is banned???[/QUOTE]

Wasn't that ban from a really long time ago in the Catholic Church? I've never heard of a ban on Bibles today. As a matter of fact, most denominations encourage study of multiple sources.
 
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thecolorsblend

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That explains a lot. Imagine a laity carving an engraving of one of the saints in the pews and then hearing "Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath".

Explains why they break that commandment so frequently.
Good point.

By the way, I assume you don't have any photographs, portraits or paintings of yourself, your family, animals or any of the like in your house. Because those are, after all, images of things in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath and you obviously know that's verboten.
 
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thecolorsblend

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It is sad that after 500 years there is still so much anti-Catholicism among Protestants. Rather than doing research, many still seem to enjoy perpetuating the same myths. Why not simply live the faith as you understand it and share it with those who have not yet come to know Christ rather than spending time and energy slandering those who have clung to the faith throughout the centuries and have known no other God but Christ?
Agreed. In defense of the Protestants though, many may not be connecting the dots that widespread literacy is a pretty recent innovation. Before the 20th century, illiteracy was very common and the further back you go in history, the less literate most people tended to be. It therefore would make very little sense for the Church to ban private ownership of Sacred Scripture since (A) most people wouldn't have been able to read it anyway and (B) most people wouldn't have been able to afford a copy in the first place.

It is to laugh.
 
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