Beware, Jesuit Sam Bacchiocchi!

[NightEternal]

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=40718103#post40718103

Well, the Trads are in fine form once again. I, of course, have heard about this sort of thing in regards to Sam for years and years (it amazes me that any SDA who has been in the church for any length of time would find this to be news.)

Yet, still the conspiracy nuts persist in thier attacks on the man. And still, gullible Trads gobble this nonsense up as if it were manna from Heaven. Seems like they will fall for anything!

HEY TRADS! I HAVE A HOUSE FOR SALE IN THE CABRINI GREEN AREA OF CHICAGO! CHEAP! ANY TAKERS? I'LL EVEN THROW IN A BULLETPROOF VEST AND SOME PEPPER SRAY FOR FREE! HEY, I'LL SWEETEN THE DEAL! YOU CAN HAVE AN ALL EXPENSE PAID VACATION TO THE BRONX IN NEW YORK AND SOUTH CENTRAL IN LOS ANGELES! MAYBE EVEN A UNGUIDED TOUR OF DOWNTOWN DETROIT!

Bwahahahahaha! What a load of malarkey! Sam must have a veritable full catalogue of this stuff in his files for reference when he wants a good laugh!

BEWARE, JESUIT SAM!!!

 

[StormyOne]

it helps those with that mindset (those who think they are traditionals) to feel like they are the remnant of the remnant, and that all others have apostasized and left the way..... foolish thinking IMO

 

[StormyOne]

btw, no one is attacking the foundations.... of course if the foundation is a lie or not true then close examination will uncover that..... perhaps that is a fear.... that what is called a foundation is really not.....

 

[tall73]

If a foundation is weak and crumbling then it is not attacking it to remove and rebuild.

 

[NightEternal]

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]Apparently two of our publishing houses, whether knowingly or unknowingly, participated in an outright fraud. 100 years later this would all be a tempest in a teapot, and a very old one at that, were it not for the fact that many of us have a hard time changing our minds. When something that we once considered to be based on unassailable evidence turns out to be wrong, we want to hide our heads in the sand rather than face the truth. Some of us, however, go a little further than that. When I wrote to Brother Sam about the opposition he was getting over the papal tiara story, he wrote back saying, "I wish you could see the hate mail I'm receiving." He later sent me the following example: [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]You truly are a good Jesuit and are doing the job you have taken an oath to do, Know this, God knows you to. You could stand on a stack of your bibles and swear all day long that you wern't a Jesuit and I would not believe you. I we both get to heaven then and only then would I believe you are not one..[/FONT]​

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]Remove me from your email list,NOW.[/FONT]​

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]But you go ahead steal all those that are willing to listen to you and your serpent tongue, for neither you nor they have the willingness to uphold the old landmarks and standards. I may not have the supposed knowledge that you have but sometimes were to smart????? for our own good. Like I say you're a good Jesuit and should have nothing to fear from their poison, knives, guns etc. Just God.[/FONT]​

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]The character of such writing remains self-evident. Ironically however, even some relatively thoughtful people will use a lack of evidence as evidence to support their position.[/FONT]

http://mikeleno.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=73

I think of this quack writing such an absurd, hateful letter to Sam, and I wonder how much longer I can tolerate the paranoia, nonsense and antichrist spirit some Trads demonstrate.

As for the supposed Jesuit identity of Brother Sam, that theory would be hysterically funny if it weren't so hurtful. Sadly he has endured such idiocy for 30 years for no reason other than some don't like what he says. About 24 years ago I was privileged to host Dr. Bacchiocchi at my home in Springfield, Oregon. I had arranged a radio interview for him in the nearby city of Eugene. During the years since, I have invited him to speak at several churches where I served as pastor. He has always been a blessing and sought to build up the church through Biblical study. He would freely acknowledge that he remains a fallible human being with the same inherent tendency to bias that we all have. But I have also observed a willingness to learn and grow that we would all do well to emulate. He remains one of many scholars I have known over the years and continue to admire and learn from.


http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_147.htmhttp://mikeleno.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=73

 

[JonMiller]

My father was a big fan of him. I got on his mailing list for a while, but only read a little bit of them.

JM

 

[moicherie]

Do such people really think they will get to heaven with so much hate in them? Phew!

 

[AndrewK788]

Do such people really think they will get to heaven with so much hate in them? Phew!

It's sad isn't it. And people wonder why they're called hypcrites.

 

[Mankin]

OH NOOOOO! THE BEAST HAS INFILTRATED THE TRUE CHURCH! Lol.

 

[tall73]

Their issue with Sam is that they hate him pointing out early documents that speak of Sunday- almost as if the historical documentation of early witnesses to Christian Sunday worship will go away without him.

Sunday has to be the work of the pope, not early Christian practice.

 

[StormyOne]

Their issue with Sam is that they hate him pointing out early documents that speak of Sunday- almost as if the historical documentation of early witnesses to Christian Sunday worship will go away without him.

Sunday has to be the work of the pope, not early Christian practice.

that would be called revisionist history yes?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I just looked over at the trad's anti Sam B thread and read this:

Originally Posted by Jon0388g
I'm reading through "The Great Controversy" at the moment. Mrs White says that Rome has always devised ways of hiding the fact that it is the beast power of Daniel and Revelation. It knows full well it fits the bill perfectly.


A few years ago, my church burst into argument about the Sabbath School quarterly, which shifted more emphasis on Antiochus Epiphanes than on Rome. My mum was outraged! So, it doesn't suprise me to see a well known Adventist "scholar" try to shift the focus off Papacy as the antichrist.

DL, fine work as always.

Jon
Yes. That's why I haven't read a sabbath quarterly in a long time. Doesn't that make you wonder so much work went into the beautifully written quarterlies and yet they 'keep missing the point'?

What this actually shows is that these people rely upon personal stories over actual evidence and real information. For instance the Lesson study guide for either the recent Daniel or IJ 1844 and the gospel studies did not ever put forward AE as the little horn. They probably should and maybe they had a good lesson teacher who covered the alternate view of the common SDA version. But the Study guide did not do what the anecdote said. Yet over there where evidence is rarely looked at it is accepted and used as justification for the practice of not even reading the study guide anymore.

By the way it only takes 5 minutes to read it so that you know what the subject is going to be I don't encourage anyone to actually follow it as a class but it is a useful starting point even if it is based upon the traditional viewpoint.

Here is from the Lesson Study Guide of Nov 24 2004 In fact for that week on the subject of the attack of the Sanctuary this is the only mention of Antiochus:
WEDNESDAY November 24 The Activity of the Little Horn
The power that followed the Grecian kingdoms in history was Rome, pagan and then papal. The fact that prophecy says the little horn was to become exceedingly great, in contrast to Media-Persia, which "became great" (Dan. 8:4, NKJV), and Greece, which became "very great" (vs. 8), rules out the identification of the little horn with the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes, who was not greater than either Media-Persia or Greece. Rome—in both its pagan and papal phases—was. It's clear, however, that Daniel 8 focuses mostly on the papal phase. http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/04d/less09.html

 

[reddogs]

Anybody going to see Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, at the Avon Park SDA church in Avon Park, Florida, November 16,17 for a Sabbath seminar. He will speak Friday evening, Sabbath morning.

(Subject:How to keep the Sabbath and gain the greatest blessing out of it) and again Sabbath evening at 6:00 pm speaking about the latest Sabbath /Sunday developments in religous circles.

Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi is a solid Christian and faithful Adventist. I will go check out his seminar and see how he is doing....

 

[Sophia7]

that would be called revisionist history yes?

Yes, and after reading a few of Dr. B.'s books, I don't see him trying to get rid of the Sabbath at all. In fact, I think that he draws some unwarranted conclusions from the evidence that he presents, in order to defend the Sabbath commandment as an eternally binding moral obligation. I see why the Trads object to his work, though; the actual historical evidence goes against Ellen White's version of history. However, he shouldn't be condemned for uncovering history that some people want to ignore.

 

[JonMiller]

Well, the Bible definitely doesn't support changing the holy day to Sunday. Now maybe a particular day isn't important... but the Adventist position seems most reasonable going from the Bible.

Going from tradition, I would think the day isn't important or is Saturday. But than, I don't think I have read one of Dr. Bacchiocchi's books. Maybe he gives a better agument for Satuday being the holy day?

JM

 

[Sophia7]

Well, the Bible definitely doesn't support changing the holy day to Sunday. Now maybe a particular day isn't important... but the Adventist position seems most reasonable going from the Bible.

Going from tradition, I would think the day isn't important or is Saturday. But than, I don't think I have read one of Dr. Bacchiocchi's books. Maybe he gives a better agument for Satuday being the holy day?

JM

Well, the history that Bacchiocchi cites shows that Sunday came about as a day of worship (but not a new Sabbath) for Christians much earlier than Adventists have traditionally taught. It wasn't the pope or Constantine that initiated it. The early Christians who worshiped on Sunday didn't see it as a day of rest as prescribed by the fourth commandment either. It wasn't viewed as a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath, with the moral weight of the commandment behind it, until much, much later.

Bacchiocchi definitely argues for the ongoing validity of the seventh-day Sabbath. In doing so, though, he has had to cast off some of the traditional Adventist arguments on specific details that contradict the historical record.

 

[JonMiller]

Yeah. I have known that for a while.. maybe with Bacciocchi as the original source (But I haven't read any of his books).

That is why I said that the other stance is that there isn't a holy day.

JM

 

[Sophia7]

Yeah. I have known that for a while.. maybe with Bacciocchi as the original source (But I haven't read any of his books).

That is why I said that the other stance is that there isn't a holy day.

JM

That is the other alternative.

 

[moicherie]

So why are Trads upset if the Doctor has discovered historical information that was not available at the time?
EG White never claimed to be a historian she used the information that was available at the time, God uses people where they are at. Do they still not understand how inspiration works? Do they not read EG White's own statement that one should never act is if there is nothing new to learn or discover?

 

[StormyOne]

So why are Trads upset if the Doctor has discovered historical information that was not available at the time?
EG White never claimed to be a historian she used the information that was available at the time, God uses people where they are at. Do they still not understand how inspiration works? Do they not read EG White's own statement that one should never act is if there is nothing new to learn or discover?

ummm the answer would be no.... they believe that they have 'the truth" ain't nothing else to be discovered...... so quit bashing the traditions.....lol