Best Form of Church Governance

[Open Heart]

Personally, I believe the biblical form of church governance is a blend of congregationalism and presbyterianism.

Basically, the local congregation is autonomous and independent, but the congregation is led by a body of elders or presbyters.

Scripture describes Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. The ECF's went into even more detail on this. There was no congregationalism in the Early Church.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I changed my opinion.

You can make a good case from both Scripture and history for any of the three main types of church polity.

It is really a minor issue, as what a church teaches is more important than what form of ecclesiology they use.

Ideally, the Church should combine all three and balance them by giving local congregations autonomy in certain teachings, liturgy and practices, while more important doctrine and practices are reserved for higher levels.

As a Baptist, I prefer the Congregationalist model, but I do have an interest in the episcopal structure since I have a fascination with Anglicanism.

 

[Open Heart]

It is really a minor issue, as what a church teaches is more important than what form of ecclesiology they use.

For a Church to lack the proper Apostolic Succession goes to the very heart of the matter, for it means that it lacks the teaching authority of the Apostles, and cannot be trusted to get what it teaches correct.

 

[Albion]

As a Baptist, I prefer the Congregationalist model, but I do have an interest in the episcopal structure since I have a fascination with Anglicanism.

...in which, by the way, the local parish has much more "say" in the calling of a pastor, the General Convention makes policy according to an electoral system, and a new bishop has to be chosen in some fashion by the people instead of simply being tapped by a pope or presiding bishop. Other church bodies which have and value an episcopal system are not like this.

 

[LinkH]

...in which, by the way, the local parish has much more "say" in the calling of a pastor, the General Convention makes policy according to an electoral system, and a new bishop has to be chosen in some fashion by the people instead of simply being tapped by a pope or presiding bishop. Other church bodies which have and value an episcopal system are not like this.

What about Greek Orthodox with priests? I read about the people insisting on St. Martin of Tours, I think it was, and putting pressure on the proceedings. People used to gather outside of papal election (or whatever you call it) proceedings. I read that at one they were chanting, "A Roman, or at least an Italian".

 

[LinkH]

As far as Presbyterianism goes, where is that in scripture. Elders, yes, but non-pastoral board elders in charge in local churches? No. Taurence (sp?) wrote a good article on that in a Scottish theological journal. I think it was in 1996. The Presbyterian elder comes from the 'elder' position in the city government in Geneva, which was considered to be something different from Biblical elders, originally. But it became a church office when Scotland copied it, and over time, they lost track of the fact that these elders weren't considered to be the Biblical elders. The ordained 'pastors' were, originally.

 

[Albion]

What about Greek Orthodox with priests? I read about the people insisting on St. Martin of Tours, I think it was, and putting pressure on the proceedings. People used to gather outside of papal election (or whatever you call it) proceedings. I read that at one they were chanting, "A Roman, or at least an Italian".

It's true that the choice of the Bishop of Rome used to be in the hands of the townspeople of Rome, but that was changed in the 11th century and today even the voting is done in secret by the Cardinals. It's also true that the selection of bishops in the Eastern Churches still is often done in accordance with the expressed wishes of the people.

However, if we have someone who says he's inclined towards the Episcopal/Anglican way and also says that he's sympathetic towards the congregationalist approach to things, it seems to me appropriate to point out that there is more congregational input in Anglican practice, at least in this country, than appears to be the case with other churches that have bishops in Apostolic Succession.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's true that the choice of the Bishop of Rome used to be in the hands of the townspeople of Rome, but that was changed in the 11th century and today even the voting is done in secret by the Cardinals. It's also true that the selection of bishops in the Eastern Churches still is often done in accordance with the expressed wishes of the people.

However, if we have someone who says he's inclined towards the Episcopal/Anglican way and also says that he's sympathetic towards the congregationalist approach to things, it seems to me appropriate to point out that there is more congregational input in Anglican practice, at least in this country, than appears to be the case with other churches that have bishops in Apostolic Succession.

It has been my personal observation that when church leadership communicates well with its congregation(s) there is a much more vital life than a top-down form of government.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

For a Church to lack the proper Apostolic Succession goes to the very heart of the matter, for it means that it lacks the teaching authority of the Apostles, and cannot be trusted to get what it teaches correct.

While there is a lot to be said for continuity; history does remind us that even with apostolic succession there can be incorrect teaching. The events of the Reformation and Counter Reformation show us that even when following the Catholic definition of Apostolic Succession and the best efforts of the Holy Spirit, wrong teaching can result from the sinful nature of man and man's expression of free will to defy God.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Even though I'm Baptist, I believe the Presbyterian structure is the best for of governing the Church.

 

[LinkH]

Even though I'm Baptist, I believe the Presbyterian structure is the best for of governing the Church.

A lot of Baptists on the local level have somethign similar and call the Presbyterian 'elders' (which don't correspond to Biblical elders) 'deacons' (which probably don't correspond to Biblical deacons either.

 

[bbbbbbb]

A lot of Baptists on the local level have somethign similar and call the Presbyterian 'elders' (which don't correspond to Biblical elders) 'deacons' (which probably don't correspond to Biblical deacons either.

Yes, I have observed that, as well. I was once in a Baptist church which was transitioning toward a biblical form of government. The pastor was seriously training men to serve as elders and not merely as a board of directors. The bottom line was that he failed because the congregation had the mindset that because they paid their pastor he was the one who should do all the work of ministry. The pastor then declined his salary and determined to take on other work to support himself. The congregation panicked and dismissed him and hired a man who would not rock their comfortable boat of a clergy/laity system.

 

[com7fy8]

the best polity

Like Paul over Timothy and Titus appointing pastors.

Rule (Hebrews 13:17) by example (1 Peter 5:3), along with God personally ruling us (Colossians 3:15).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Like Paul over Timothy and Titus appointing pastors.

Rule (Hebrews 13:17) by example (1 Peter 5:3), along with God personally ruling us (Colossians 3:15).

Interesting. The passages you refer to in I Timothy and in Titus do not mention anything about pastors. They do talk about elders (presbyteros) which is an entirely different word. Perhaps you might wish to do a word study on pastors in the Greek.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

A lot of Baptists on the local level have somethign similar and call the Presbyterian 'elders' (which don't correspond to Biblical elders) 'deacons' (which probably don't correspond to Biblical deacons either.

I actually think the Presbyterians are right on polity and that we should have a full on Presbyterian system.

The NT seems clear that the local congregations were allowed to make a lot of their own decisions, yet the Apostles were alive then and the Church met in councils and synods.

Ideally, I believe the local congregation should be autonomous on issue not essential to the faith and that Christians can disagree on while the higher governing bodies deal with preserving more important doctrinal issues and some forms of discipline.

I'm Southern Baptist, and our churches tend to be led by a single pastor. I noticed that regardless of denominational affiliation, single leader churches tend to have pastors who lack accountability, primarily in non-denominational and Prosperity Gospel churches. I also see single pastor led churches as akin to the episcopal polity, just on a congregational level.

I think a plurality of elders provides accountability. To me, congregationalism seems like it is taken too far as a reaction against the episcopal system, while the Presbyterian structure seems to be a nice balance.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I actually think the Presbyterians are right on polity and that we should have a full on Presbyterian system.

The NT seems clear that the local congregations were allowed to make a lot of their own decisions, yet the Apostles were alive then and the Church met in councils and synods.

Ideally, I believe the local congregation should be autonomous on issue not essential to the faith and that Christians can disagree on while the higher governing bodies deal with preserving more important doctrinal issues and some forms of discipline.

I'm Southern Baptist, and our churches tend to be led by a single pastor. I noticed that regardless of denominational affiliation, single leader churches tend to have pastors who lack accountability, primarily in non-denominational and Prosperity Gospel churches. I also see single pastor led churches as akin to the episcopal polity, just on a congregational level.

I think a plurality of elders provides accountability. To me, congregationalism seems like it is taken too far as a reaction against the episcopal system, while the Presbyterian structure seems to be a nice balance.

Nice post. Thank you.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Nice post. Thank you.

Your welcome!

 

[com7fy8]

The passages you refer to in I Timothy and in Titus do not mention anything about pastors.

Understood, but the "bishop" takes "care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. Caring for God's people is pastoring, I understand.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Understood, but the "bishop" takes "care of the church of God" > 1 Timothy 3:1-10. Caring for God's people is pastoring, I understand.

The word for bishop (episkopos) is used interchangeably with that translated as elder (presbyteros). In no case is there any use of the word "pastor". Pastor is not the office in a church organization that tradition has made it to be.

 

[LinkH]

The word for bishop (episkopos) is used interchangeably with that translated as elder (presbyteros). In no case is there any use of the word "pastor". Pastor is not the office in a church organization that tradition has made it to be.

There is a verb form related to the noun translated 'pastor'. We see it in I Peter 5 and Acts 20:28. It can be translated 'feed' or 'tend' which obscures it's relationship to the word translated 'pastor.'