Bernie Sanders could beat Trump in 2020

Catfisher

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I don't think anybody does not even the worst sycophants, he's just like everybody else in this world he's not perfect.

I'm just like you in that I take a very dim view of politicians/politics in general, most of them in office nowadays aren't as honest or bright as my 9yr old granddaughter.

1) There is too much power concentrated in Washington DC.
2) There are 350,000,000 people in America.

That's why I and so many others want to shrink the size of the federal government. One representative can't possibly understand all of the needs of 780,000 people they're supposed to represent - even if he or she is smart and not one of the idiots.

To build community, more power should be given back to the states and local governments. That way, if California wants to tax its citizens to pay for huge farm subsidies or free college or free health care, they can knock themselves out. Of course, states can't make these types of ponzi schemes work because they can't issue endless debt like the federal government can.
 
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The Barbarian

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Norway is a democratic socialist nation, in that social policy regulates the market place.

If we implemented half of the things Norway has done, the right would be shrieking that we were becoming Marxists.
 
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RDKirk

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Albion

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You may wish that were the case, but the facts say otherwise. Just take Sanders and AOC to see for yourself. Actually read the provisions of AOCs Green New Deal and Sanders proposals made on the campaign trail. There is no question but that your statement here is incorrect.
 
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RDKirk

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You may wish that were the case, but the facts say otherwise. Just take Sanders and AOC to see for yourself. Actually read the provisions of AOCs Green New Deal and Sanders proposals made on the campaign trail. There is no question but that your statement here is incorrect.

I have, and they don't propose anything that would have as overall a "socialist" effect on the US than is currently the state of Norwegian economics and politics.
 
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Albion

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I have, and they don't propose anything that would have as overall a "socialist" effect on the US than is currently the state of Norwegian economics and politics.
Had you also read the link I offered? An excerpt--

The Economist magazine describes the Scandinavian countries as “stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies.” Perhaps this is why Denmark, Norway, and Sweden rank among the most globalized countries in the entire world. These countries all also rank in the top 10 easiest countries to do business in.

”How do supporters of Bernie Sanders feel about the minimum wage? You will find no such government-imposed floors on labor in Sweden, Norway, or Denmark. Instead, minimum wages are decided by collective-bargaining agreements between unions and employers....”

and numerous other analysts have made the same points.

There is no way to argue that Scandinavian social democracy, so called, is even close to the Socialist changes advocated by the people I referred to.
 
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The Barbarian

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You may wish that were the case, but the facts say otherwise. Just take Sanders and AOC to see for yourself. Actually read the provisions of AOCs Green New Deal and Sanders proposals made on the campaign trail. There is no question but that your statement here is incorrect.

Specifically, what in any of that is more "socialist" than the Scandanavian socialism we see in those countries?

What have you got to show us?
 
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JacobKStarkey

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Had you also read the link I offered? An excerpt--

The Economist magazine describes the Scandinavian countries as “stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies.” Perhaps this is why Denmark, Norway, and Sweden rank among the most globalized countries in the entire world. These countries all also rank in the top 10 easiest countries to do business in.

”How do supporters of Bernie Sanders feel about the minimum wage? You will find no such government-imposed floors on labor in Sweden, Norway, or Denmark. Instead, minimum wages are decided by collective-bargaining agreements between unions and employers....”

and numerous other analysts have made the same points.

There is no way to argue that Scandinavian social democracy, so called, is even close to the Socialist changes advocated by the people I referred to.
And the democratic party would go no further than Scandinavia in allowing social policy to regulate capitalism in the US. The Green Deal is nothing more than a barking point for the GOP.
 
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RDKirk

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Had you also read the link I offered? An excerpt--

The Economist magazine describes the Scandinavian countries as “stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies.” Perhaps this is why Denmark, Norway, and Sweden rank among the most globalized countries in the entire world. These countries all also rank in the top 10 easiest countries to do business in.

”How do supporters of Bernie Sanders feel about the minimum wage? You will find no such government-imposed floors on labor in Sweden, Norway, or Denmark. Instead, minimum wages are decided by collective-bargaining agreements between unions and employers....”

and numerous other analysts have made the same points.

There is no way to argue that Scandinavian social democracy, so called, is even close to the Socialist changes advocated by the people I referred to.

It helps when the government does not intervene to prevent collective bargaining. Whether a minimum income is implemented by collective agreement or by law, the fact is that a collective agreement is not "free market" valuation of labor, and is a democratic socialist effect. Let's not forget that unions have also been called "socialism." Same destination, different path.

It ain't a labor free market.
 
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Albion

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And the democratic party would go no further than Scandinavia in allowing social policy to regulate capitalism in the US.
Well, we do not know that, do we? Until recently, every Democrat distanced himself from even the word Socialism and did so with the greatest emphasis he could bring to bear. Now, however, a Socialist is a front runner for the Democratic Partys nomination for president. And some of the partys members in Congress openly call themselves Socialists.

All this is a far cry from an assurance that the party can not possibly go any further, especially when Socialist proposals for the takeover of every building in the USA and the nationalizing of major industries by the federal government are proposed and bring almost no adverse response from other Democrats in elective office who are not Socialists themselves.
 
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Albion

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Let's not forget that unions have also been called "socialism."
Lets also not redirect the discussion from Socialism itself to what somebody or other (customarily unidentified) might have incorrectly labelled as Socialism.
 
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JacobKStarkey

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Well, Albion, we do know that because (1) it never has gone any further than that in the past and (2) the GOP would be a good anchor to slow down any effort to do so.

What we do know is that we can no longer trust the GOP or the libertarians to legislate in the interest of all Americans.

Let's define what is 'socialism' so we all are on the same page.
 
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Albion

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Well, Albion, we do know that because (1) it never has gone any further than that in the past

That proves nothing about whether it can happen in the future. :doh:

and (2) the GOP would be a good anchor to slow down any effort to do so.
Really? :sigh:
 
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Catfisher

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It's as "socialist" as any American Democrat is talking about being.

Sweden has school choice... :doh:

And there are several Democrats talking about more socialism. The New Green Deal was a fine example, along with a guaranteed income of $100,000, and all that stuff.
 
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Catfisher

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It helps when the government does not intervene to prevent collective bargaining. Whether a minimum income is implemented by collective agreement or by law, the fact is that a collective agreement is not "free market" valuation of labor, and is a democratic socialist effect. Let's not forget that unions have also been called "socialism." Same destination, different path.

It ain't a labor free market.

Government workers should be prevented from unionizing in any case, since the employer cannot directly negotiate with their employer - the taxpayers.
 
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RDKirk

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Lets also not redirect the discussion from Socialism itself to what somebody or other (customarily unidentified) might have incorrectly labelled as Socialism.

Which is what the current GOP "barking point" (I'm going to start using that term. Who do I have to thank for that?).

You're incorrectly using the label yourself. You've been told that, you've been told what Socialism actually is, yet you persist in using it incorrectly.
 
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The Barbarian

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Government workers should be prevented from unionizing in any case, since the employer cannot directly negotiate with their employer - the taxpayers.

That reasoning would mean that governments could not make contracts, since the contractor cannot directly negotiate with taxpayers.

Again, right-wing logic.
 
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RDKirk

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Sweden has school choice...

And there are several Democrats talking about more socialism. The New Green Deal was a fine example, along with a guaranteed income of $100,000, and all that stuff.

So as long as school choice is maintained, it's all good.
 
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Catfisher

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So as long as school choice is maintained, it's all good.

Just pointing out an area where they're actually more free than us.

Socialism isn't hard to define. It's the government providing any private economic good.
 
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