Bernie Sanders could beat Trump in 2020

[Catfisher]

Well, Biden isn't in the middle class anymore.
And his policies certainly aren't good for the middle class. Higher taxes, wage-suppressing immigration policies (depending upon which Biden is talking at the moment), etc., are simply anti-middle class.

 

[The Barbarian]

Well, Biden isn't in the middle class anymore.

Neither am I, according to most measures. But here I am, not really different from that kid who grew up in a working-class family, and worked track gangs every summer to pay for college. You can leave that sort of life, but it never leaves you.

And his policies certainly aren't good for the middle class.

Couldn't be much worse than we see happening to them under the present administration. Except for the Bill Clinton years, the middle class declined continuously over the past few decades.

Higher taxes,

Reagan's, G.W.Bush's, and Trump's tax laws laid an increasing percentage of the tax burden on the middle class. So that's not Biden's way. That's the right-wing way.

wage-suppressing immigration policies

No one with any sense says that immigrants suppress middle class incomes. It's not even certain that they suppress bottom-tier wages.
Cato Journal: Does Immigration Reduce Wages?

C'mon.

 

[Sistrin]

"Bernie Sanders could beat Trump in 2020"

No, he can't.

 

[The Barbarian]

If Bernie keeps drawing more followers who used to follow Trump, he will. That's why Trump went ballistic when Fox News appeared to be hedging their bets on populists, but giving Bernie a town hall meeting on their network.

Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., leads President Trump in hypothetical matchups in three states that were critical to the Republican's victory in 2016, according to internal polling conducted by the Sanders team.

The campaign released the data to reporters Monday, showing 52% of likely voters in Michigan inclined to back Sanders in the 2020 general election, in comparison to 41% for Trump.

The statistics were similar in Wisconsin, where 52% of voters said they would back Sanders, while 42% said they would cast their ballot for Trump. In Pennsylvania, 51% of likely voters said they would support Sanders, while 43% would vote for Trump.
Bernie Sanders internal polling shows Trump losing 3 states key to 2016 win

Fox News seems to realize this. So, apparently, does Trump, which is why he had his hissy fit over Fox's treatment of Bernie.

 

[Catfisher]

Couldn't be much worse than we see happening to them under the present administration. Except for the Bill Clinton years, the middle class declined continuously over the past few decades.

It could get worse, since many Democrats want open borders, or some close approximation thereof. Socialized medicine and higher taxes. Not to mention less freedom of speech and other freedoms under the Bill of Rights, which the left constantly attacks.

Reagan's, G.W.Bush's, and Trump's tax laws laid an increasing percentage of the tax burden on the middle class. So that's not Biden's way. That's the right-wing way.

So in order to decrease the amount of tax burden on the middle class, we should raise their taxes? He's already stated he wants to repeal Trump's tax cuts.

No one with any sense says that immigrants suppress middle class incomes.

The study you cite doesn't really differentiate between legal and illegal immigration, and seems to focus on legal immigration, which is restricted and controlled.

More evidence immigration suppresses wages - MacroBusiness
Illegal Immigration Hurts The Economy & Depresses Wages. Period. | National Economics Editorial
Illegal Immigration: The Impact on Wages and Employment of Black Workers
The Hidden Costs of Immigration

There are other forms of hidden taxes as well. Obamacare personally cost my family $8,000 per year in increased premiums and the higher deductibles. Where did that money go? (that's a rhetorical question... I know where it went)

 

[The Barbarian]

It could get worse, since many Democrats want open borders,

You mean they want to go back to American the way it was before the late 1800s? Which democrats want open borders? Checkable source, please.

Socialized medicine

They want Medicare?

and higher taxes.

Last time I looked, they wanted to reverse the trend of piling more and more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class.

Not to mention less freedom of speech and other freedoms under the Bill of Rights,

Trump isn't a democrat. Neither is McConnell. You're a little confused here.

President Donald Trump has hit out at “very weak” libel laws in the US as he branded an explosive new book detailing the inner workings of the White House as “fiction”.


Suggesting he would like to see tougher laws on speech, Mr Trump said that if libel laws “were strong... you wouldn’t have things like that happen where you can say whatever comes into your head” – referring to Michael Wolff’s book Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House.
Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech

So in order to decrease the amount of tax burden on the middle class, we should raise their taxes?

Trump has already done that. Pumping up the deficit is a huge tax increase to be paid in the future. Meantime, the "tax cuts" turned out to be a hoax, as middle class families discovered that Trump had eliminated many of the deductions that cut their tax. One egregious example, was a huge tax increase on the benefits of survivors of fallen soldiers. It wasn't that much money, but Trump needed it to help finance a multimillion dollar tax cut for himself.

He's already stated he wants to repeal Trump's tax cuts.

Here's why:
And, the cuts for middle-class wage earners fade over time. By 2026, changes to individual tax rules expire, while corporate changes are permanent. Unless Congress acts, 53 percent of all taxpayers will see a modest tax hike by 2027, the Tax Policy Center says, including almost 70 percent of middle-income families.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

The study you cite doesn't really differentiate between legal and illegal immigration

In fact, they didn't find a difference in impact. Didn't differentiate between immigrants arriving on weekdays and immigrants arriving on weekends, either. If you think there's a difference, checkable source. Ah, but you don't back up your claims; too bad.

 

[Catfisher]

You mean they want to go back to American the way it was before the late 1800s? Which democrats want open borders? Checkable source, please.

Any of the ones running sanctuary cities, lol. Plenty of examples.

Last time I looked, they wanted to reverse the trend of piling more and more of the tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class.

The Top 1 Percent’s Tax Rates Over Time | Tax Foundation
This seems to indicate that the 1% have had a trending increase in their tax burden, not a decrease. How are you arriving at the conclusion that the middle class is bearing a larger share of the burden? If you're referring to payroll tax burdens, we might could agree, although we know where payroll taxes came from.

So how is Biden going to decrease the tax burden on the middle class? He's already on record as wanting to repeal the Trump tax cuts... I think it's really simple logic that if you raise taxes on the middle class by eliminating the tax cuts, then you're not helping reduce the tax burden on the middle class...

Trump isn't a democrat. Neither is McConnell. You're a little confused here.

Nah, not confused at all.

President

Donald Trump has hit out at “very weak” libel laws in the US as he branded an explosive new book detailing the inner workings of the White House as “fiction”.

It's true we do have the freedom to lie. What's worse is shutting down truth.

Trump has already done that. Pumping up the deficit is a huge tax increase to be paid in the future. Meantime, the "tax cuts" turned out to be a hoax, as middle class families discovered that Trump had eliminated many of the deductions that cut their tax. One egregious example, was a huge tax increase on the benefits of survivors of fallen soldiers. It wasn't that much money, but Trump needed it to help finance a multimillion dollar tax cut for himself.

You can't lay all deficit spending and debt increases on Trump. By that logic, Obama is responsible for almost half of our national debt by himself. Congress and both parties (the collective group of degenerates in Congress) can't quit wasting money they don't have.

Here's why:
And, the cuts for middle-class wage earners fade over time. By 2026, changes to individual tax rules expire, while corporate changes are permanent. Unless Congress acts, 53 percent of all taxpayers will see a modest tax hike by 2027, the Tax Policy Center says, including almost 70 percent of middle-income families.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

My taxes went down, and I'm certainly not in the 1%. Joe Biden didn't say anything about wanting to extend them. He wants to repeal them. How does that help the middle class, when in effect their paychecks will be smaller?

In fact, they didn't find a difference in impact. Didn't differentiate between immigrants arriving on weekdays and immigrants arriving on weekends, either. If you think there's a difference, checkable source. Ah, but you don't back up your claims; too bad.

No, none of the four different links I posted counted, lol. Okay. Here, you're simply comparing apples to oranges and equivocating on the word immigrant. Illegal immigrants coming here certainly don't suppress wages of computer programmers (H1b visas do that - but that immigration is controlled and restricted). Common sense.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
You mean they want to go back to America the way it was before the late 1800s? Which democrats want open borders? Checkable source, please.

Any of the ones running sanctuary cities, lol. Plenty of examples.

Oh, that's right, you don't support your claims... we got it.

So how is Biden going to decrease the tax burden on the middle class? He's already on record as wanting to repeal the Trump tax cuts...

That would help, since in a few years, the middle class will see their taxes rise under Trump's law. And by returning the tax rates to what they were, the deficit will be less, and that means lower taxes in the future.

I think it's really simple logic that if you raise taxes on the middle class by eliminating the tax cuts, then you're not helping reduce the tax burden on the middle class...

It's not hard to figure out. A larger deficit (because Trump only partially paid for the huge tax cut he gave himself by taking money from survivors of fallen soldiers and cutting middle-class deductions) is a large tax increase to be paid in the future.

(Catfisher concerned about attacks on the Constitution)

President Donald Trump has hit out at “very weak” libel laws in the US as he branded an explosive new book detailing the inner workings of the White House as “fiction”.

Suggesting he would like to see tougher laws on speech, Mr Trump said that if libel laws “were strong... you wouldn’t have things like that happen where you can say whatever comes into your head” – referring to Michael Wolff’s book Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House.
Donald Trump suggests he wants US law to limit free speech

Trump isn't a democrat. Neither is McConnell. You're a little confused here.

Nah, not confused at all.

I see the denial, but your behavior is more convincing.

(Trump angered by news stories about his affairs and payoffs to inappropriate content star to cover up affairs)

It's true we do have the freedom to lie.

And Trump enjoys that freedom frequently. Apparently at least 10,000 times publicly since he was elected.

What's worse is shutting down truth.

Which, as you see, it what Trump wants to do.

You can't lay all deficit spending and debt increases on Trump.

Just the increase that resulted from the lavish tax cut he gave himself. Incidentally, he promised that the tax bill would cost him money. Predictably, he gave himself tens of millions of dollars. And heavily taxed the families of fallen soldiers.

Here, you're simply comparing apples to oranges and equivocating on the word immigrant.

Perhaps you don't know what "equivocating" means. The Cato Institute showed that immigrants don't lower wages, except (possibly) for the very lowest wage levels. They didn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants, but if you have checkable data to show us a difference, I'm sure we'd all be happy to look at it.

What have you got?

 

[Catfisher]

Barbarian asks:
That would help, since in a few years, the middle class will see their taxes rise under Trump's law. And by returning the tax rates to what they were, the deficit will be less, and that means lower taxes in the future.

Congress sunset the provisions. I take it you think that Trump sat around and drafted the entire thing?
This is why these conversations never get anywhere. Reality, and especially the legislation-making process, is more complicated than that. Here you imply that Trump wanted them to sunset. You'll need to prove that, instead of what is reality which he might not have been happy with the entire bill, but signed it because it was a move in the direction he wanted.

Arguments of these types, where you give credit or blame to just the President are really not compelling at all.

It's not hard to figure out. A larger deficit (because Trump only partially paid for the huge tax cut he gave himself by taking money from survivors of fallen soldiers and cutting middle-class deductions) is a large tax increase to be paid in the future.

A larger tax increase to be paid in the future. It's always a "we need to tax more" solution with Democrats - never a "we need to spend less" solution. You've stayed in the Democrat lane there very well. And before you answer back and say that Trump is running deficits, let's just head that one off at the pass - you keep assuming (very incorrectly) that I'm a die hard Trump supporter. He's not even that conservative at all.

[Shutting down truth] Which, as you see, it what Trump wants to do.

Uh, by definition, libel and slander are untrue, lol.

Just the increase that resulted from the lavish tax cut he gave himself. Incidentally, he promised that the tax bill would cost him money. Predictably, he gave himself tens of millions of dollars. And heavily taxed the families of fallen soldiers.

You're assuming I agree with the tax cut in its entirety. Let's stop moving goalposts.

Biden says he wants to repeal the tax cuts. That will undo tax cuts that the middle class (at least many millions of us) did receive. So it appears Biden wants to raise my taxes. That's not alleviating my tax burden, lol.

Perhaps you don't know what "equivocating" means. The Cato Institute showed that immigrants don't lower wages, except (possibly) for the very lowest wage levels. They didn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants, but if you have checkable data to show us a difference, I'm sure we'd all be happy to look at it.
What have you got?

I know exactly what equivocating means. By definition, open borders means unregulated immigration. Today this takes the form of illegal immigration, unenforced border laws, and unenforced illegal labor employer hiring laws.

The Cato articles only make sense when speaking about legal immigration, or when comparing certain jobs that illegal aliens don't do. You have to compare the jobs people do to the type of immigration, as I previously pointed out.

Basic economics dictates that if you supply more of something, it suppresses price. Pretty basic.

I would argue illegal immigration hits the POOR much harder than the middle class, and makes it harder for POOR Americans to rise into the middle class.

 

[The Barbarian]

Congress sunset the provisions. I take it you think that Trump sat around and drafted the entire thing?
This is why these conversations never get anywhere. Reality, and especially the legislation-making process, is more complicated than that. Here you imply that Trump wanted them to sunset. You'll need to prove that, instead of what is reality which he might not have been happy with the entire bill, but signed it because it was a move in the direction he wanted.

I guess there were good things for him and bad things. Apparently, Congress overrode his desire that the law not do him any good personally. On the good side, he was probably pleased that it heavily taxed the families of fallen soldiers.

Arguments of these types, where you give credit or blame to just the President are really not compelling at all.

Well, you know how uncompelling barbarians are...

A larger tax increase to be paid in the future.

Yep. Republicans love tax increases in the future, so they can feel virtuous now. It's always a "we need to tax more later to pay for our cuts now" solution with republicans - never a "we need to spend less" solution. You've stayed in the republican lane there very well.

(Trump seeking to find a way to stop media from criticizing him)

Uh, by definition, libel and slander are untrue, lol.

Like every Trump loyalist, you assume criticism of Trump must be libel or slander.

You're assuming I agree with the tax cut in its entirety.

I'm noting that you support the tax bill. Some parts of it you like, such as giving Trump a huge windfall, override the parts you might not like, such as taking money from families of fallen soldiers.

Let's stop moving goalposts.

Speak for yourself.

Biden says he wants to repeal the tax cuts.

Since most Americans actually didn't get a tax cut, and the rich got lavish cuts, it's not hard to see why. Most people agree with him.

However, the smaller refunds have triggered shock and anger. Taxpayers faced with smaller refunds or higher taxes have been airing their grievances online with the hashtags #GOPTaxScam and #GOPTaxScamStories. Meanwhile, Donald Trump Jr. and others have pushed back, claiming the complainers are misinformed.

"My husband and I owed money for the first time ever, and are “middle class” according to the tax brackets.

We don’t even make 50k/yr.

No EIC, elimination of other write-offs and deductions, meant the IRS keeps 4K we already paid and we still owe $79."
Anger, Confusion Over Dwindling Refunds. Is Trump's Tax Plan To Blame?

Perhaps you don't know what "equivocating" means. The Cato Institute showed that immigrants don't lower wages, except (possibly) for the very lowest wage levels. They didn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants, but if you have checkable data to show us a difference, I'm sure we'd all be happy to look at it.
What have you got?

I know exactly what equivocating means. By definition, open borders means unregulated immigration.

Doesn't seem like it. Pointing out the fact that immigrants don't lower wages, is not a call for open borders, as you have claimed. And we'll note that you don't have anything to support your assertions, again.

Today this takes the form of illegal immigration

Which, due to Trump's misguided enforcement policies, has increased greatly. This is why Obama's enforcement focused on dangerous criminals first. It actually reduced the number of illegal immigrants. If this puzzles you, it might suggest to you that you don't yet have a very good idea of the way it works.

unenforced border laws,

Under Obama a record number of people were deported or caught at the border and removed. If you think that's "unenforced border laws" then we have found one of your difficulties.

and unenforced illegal labor employer hiring laws.

So you have evidence that Trump is enforcing hiring laws more than previous administrations? This seems to indicate otherwise:
The Trump Organization employed illegal immigrants
The Trump Organization employed illegal immigrants

The Cato articles only make sense when speaking about legal immigration, or when comparing certain jobs that illegal aliens don't do. You have to compare the jobs people do to the type of immigration, as I previously pointed out.

I asked you to show us your evidence for that. But you don't support your assertions, do you?

Basic economics dictates that if you supply more of something, it suppresses price.

Even an introduction to economics discusses the inelasticity of wages. Pretty basic. Have you ever taken a course in economics?

I would argue illegal immigration hits the POOR much harder than the middle class, and makes it harder for POOR Americans to rise into the middle class.

No, that's wrong. Alabama did an experiment on this, in which the state made it extremely hard for illegal immigrants to get jobs. The result? Lack of workers for many jobs, crops rotting in fields, construction delays and layoffs. And a lot of angry farmers and employers.

Police were frustrated, because fearful immigrants, even legal ones, would not talk to them about crimes, fearing deportation.

Alabama's new immigration law is likely to cost the state tens of millions of dollars in lost taxes, says a new study.

The report by the Center for Business and Economic Research at the University of Alabama would cause 70,000 to 140,000 undocumented immigrants to lose jobs and would cost about $1.2 billion to $5.8 billion in the earnings of those immigrants as well as $56.7 million to $264.5 million in lost state income taxes and sales taxes.

"The cost is quite certain," said the center's director, Sam Addy. "It's simple economics. If you have more people you have a bigger economy, less people a smaller economy."
Alabama's Immigration Law to Cost State Millions in Lost Taxes, Study Says

 

[Catfisher]

I guess there were good things for him and bad things. Apparently, Congress overrode his desire that the law not do him any good personally. On the good side, he was probably pleased that it heavily taxed the families of fallen soldiers.

I doubt he was pleased at all about any negative consequences to deceased soldiers' spouses, but if you have proof otherwise....

Well, you know how uncompelling barbarians are...

I gave you an opportunity to pitch Biden!

Yep. Republicans love tax increases in the future, so they can feel virtuous now. It's always a "we need to tax more later to pay for our cuts now" solution with republicans - never a "we need to spend less" solution. You've stayed in the republican lane there very well.

Well, you're arguing with the wrong person, then. I really don't feel compelled to change my views by what you've just posted. You're still arguing with this sports team mentality where it's a binary decision and that we can't criticize anything without blaming a political party.

I'll say it for the sixth or seventh time - I think Washington DC is full of degenerates who make bad policy. You're not convincing me of anything here. Of ALL the Republicans in DC right now, there are about 3 that I respect.

(Trump seeking to find a way to stop media from criticizing him)

Sure he is. It's human nature. Obama's strategy was just to call people "bitter clingers" or "racist".

Like every Trump loyalist, you assume criticism of Trump must be libel or slander.

That's an false statement. I'm 1) niether a Trump loyalist, or 2) one who assumes that all criticism of Trump is untrue.

I'm noting that you support the tax bill. Some parts of it you like, such as giving Trump a huge windfall, override the parts you might not like, such as taking money from families of fallen soldiers.

Again you've completely failed at putting words in my mouth by just making up things. Please stop. And that's where I'm stopping for this post. You move goalposts, accuse me of views I don't subscribe to to make your fallacious points, etc. Let me know if you want to have a serious discussion, with all respect.

 

[The Barbarian]

I doubt he was pleased at all about any negative consequences to deceased soldiers' spouses, but if you have proof otherwise....

The President has insulted war heroes, prisoners of war, Gold Star families and, some critics say, tried to use the troops to score political points. He's directed 5% cuts at Veterans Affairs, which for some time he left in the control of non-veterans who happened to be members of his Mar-a-Lago club.
He's neglected to visit combat zones, unlike other presidents, suggested troops' midterm election ballots not be counted, passed up Veterans Day ceremonies other leaders made time to attend and repeatedly said he knows more about military issues than generals do.
"These unnecessary unforced errors, when you attack people like Adm. McRaven and (the late Sen. John) McCain, it shows a lack of respect that's just baffling," said Melissa Bryant, chief policy officer at the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, and a veteran of the Iraq War.
Trump's military insults pile up - CNNPolitics

I gave you an opportunity to pitch Biden!

You're pitching Trump, but that doesn't mean I have to take a side. You're still arguing with this sports team mentality where it's a binary decision and that we can't criticize anything without blaming a political party.

Well, you're arguing with the wrong person, then. I really don't feel compelled to change my views by what you've just posted.

Reality is a hard thing, sometimes, but it has the virtue of being true.

I'll say it for the sixth or seventh time - I think Washington DC is full of degenerates who make bad policy.

The "draining of the swamp" seems to have become "get me some more gaters and cottonmouths."

Obama's strategy was just to call people "bitter clingers" or "racist".

I notice that his opponents were always trying to sell that story, but in fact, he rarely mentioned race. I suppose the right wing thought that it would be a good idea to play the race card a lot and pretend that Obama did it. And of course, he never suggested changing laws to penalize people for criticizing him as Trump and other republicans have.

That's an false statement. I'm 1) niether a Trump loyalist, or 2) one who assumes that all criticism of Trump is untrue.

You really don't have to try to convince anyone. Behavior is far more persuasive than denials.

If you want to do better, try to address the questions people have of you, by presenting some evidence.

 

[Catfisher]

The President has insulted war heroes, prisoners of war, Gold Star families and, some critics say, tried to use the troops to score political points. He's directed 5% cuts at Veterans Affairs, which for some time he left in the control of non-veterans who happened to be members of his Mar-a-Lago club.

He had a rather tasteless string of things to say about McCain, who helped spread the false Steele Dossier about him. Other than that, I can't remember where he was otherwise rude or critical of Gold Star families. Maybe you can post some evidence. I do remember Democrats ignoring those families.

He's neglected to visit combat zones, unlike other presidents, suggested troops' midterm election ballots not be counted, passed up Veterans Day ceremonies other leaders made time to attend and repeatedly said he knows more about military issues than generals do.

"These unnecessary unforced errors, when you attack people like Adm. McRaven and (the late Sen. John) McCain, it shows a lack of respect that's just baffling," said Melissa Bryant, chief policy officer at the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, and a veteran of the Iraq War.
Trump's military insults pile up - CNNPolitics

He's been overseas. I don't think criticizing Trump's travel plans are terribly meaningful.

You're pitching Trump, but that doesn't mean I have to take a side. You're still arguing with this sports team mentality where it's a binary decision and that we can't criticize anything without blaming a political party.

Where have I pitched Trump?

The "draining of the swamp" seems to have become "get me some more gaters and cottonmouths."

I don't see where. I don't think he's fired enough federal workers yet. Most of the upper FBI and CIA and NSA management need to be fired, and other departments are pretty much worthless wastes.

I notice that his opponents were always trying to sell that story, but in fact, he rarely mentioned race. I suppose the right wing thought that it would be a good idea to play the race card a lot and pretend that Obama did it. And of course, he never suggested changing laws to penalize people for criticizing him as Trump and other republicans have.

Yeah, Obama had nothing to say about beer summits, Ferguson, Trayvon, etc.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yeah, Obama had nothing to say about beer summits, Ferguson, Trayvon, etc.

And three comments in four years. You just proved my point for me. Thank you.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, it is the system that created the greatest prosperity in the history of Planet Earth.

Meanwhile, every Socialist nation has failed to improve the lot of its people.

Norwegians seem pretty happy about their government and economic situation.

 

[Albion]

Norwegians seem pretty happy about their government and economic situation.

Probably so, but on the other hand, Norway is not a Socialist nation.

The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism | Corey Iacono.

 

[JacobKStarkey]

Norway is a democratic socialist nation, in that social policy regulates the market place.

 

[Gigimo]

That's an false statement. I'm 1) niether a Trump loyalist, or 2) one who assumes that all criticism of Trump is untrue.

Some folks just don't want to believe that there are objective people out there so they insinuate everybody else is just like them (another tactic). I guess that's what floats their boat and helps them sleep at times.

 

[Catfisher]

Some folks just don't want to believe that there are objective people out there so they insinuate everybody else is just like them (another tactic). I guess that's what floats their boat and helps them sleep at times.

I'm a bit biased, of course. Everyone is. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Trump does!

 

[Gigimo]

I'm a bit biased, of course. Everyone is. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Trump does!

I don't think anybody does not even the worst sycophants, he's just like everybody else in this world he's not perfect.

I'm just like you in that I take a very dim view of politicians/politics in general, most of them in office nowadays aren't as honest or bright as my 9yr old granddaughter.