Believing in omniscience demands a belief in predestination.

[Marvin Knox]

God knows, always has known, and always will know everything past, present, and future - both actual and possible.

That’s the definition we memorized in school. Every one of those categories of omniscience is clearly attested to in the scriptures.

These all encompassing facets of the attribute of omniscience is something inherent in the nature of God.

The old saying from school asks the question, “Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?”

God “learns” nothing. God is perfect and always has been. If knowledge can be added to Him – He was not perfect to begin with.

If you could somehow be taken back to the “beginning” (“before the foundation of the world”) with God – He could tell you everything that will happen in history even before there was a world created to have a history.

Whether we are talking about how many rain drops will fall on North America in the year 2017 or whether we are talking about who will accept Jesus as Savior and when they will make that decision out of their wills – God knew it all.

He didn’t guess about it. He didn’t “look down through history” and see it happening. He simply knew it without shadow of doubt.

Given this truth – is there any chance that what God “knew” would happen at any given time would not happen? The answer is an emphatic NO.

What God knew would happen was "destined" to happen. Since we are talking about a destiny which God knew before there was anything in existence but Himself - who is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?

The answer is God. God predestines everything which happens in His creation.

He sends forth His Word to accomplish exactly what He not only knows will happen but exactly what He intends to happen according to His omniscience, foreknowledge and omnipresent providential control of all things.

Everything that happens from rain to people requires literally multiplied trillions of actions by God on every conceivable level to bring them to past and to uphold them as they are brought to past.

Everything is created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things consist.

God is not just transcendent – He is also immanent on every level in the universe.

“Do I not fill Heaven and earth?” God asks.

In Him we live and move and have our being.

If everyone can resist the temptation to talk about people being robots and computers – can’t we at least agree to, as a basic starting point, these most basic concepts of all?

God is God. We are the creation. Within that framework and that framework only – we somehow have “being” - created in His image. Our personal decisions are the mechanism, as it were, which God uses, among other things, to bring what He has predestined to happen to past.

I think it fair to call these and a few other related concepts the basics of "Christianity 101".

If you haven't incorporated these basic truths into your knowledge base – you are not equipped to even begin to understand soteriology.

 

[EmSw]

God knows, always has known, and always will know everything past, present, and future - both actual and possible.

That’s the definition we memorized in school. Every one of those categories of omniscience is clearly attested to in the scriptures.

These all encompassing facets of the attribute of omniscience is something inherent in the nature of God.

The old saying from school asks the question, “Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?”

God “learns” nothing. God is perfect and always has been. If knowledge can be added to Him – He was not perfect to begin with.

If you could somehow be taken back to the “beginning” (“before the foundation of the world”) with God – He could tell you everything that will happen in history even before there was a world created to have a history.

Whether we are talking about how many rain drops will fall on North America in the year 2017 or whether we are talking about who will accept Jesus as Savior and when they will make that decision out of their wills – God knew it all.

He didn’t guess about it. He didn’t “look down through history” and see it happening. He simply knew it without shadow of doubt.

Given this truth – is there any chance that what God “knew” would happen at any given time would not happen. The answer is an emphatic NO.

If you would stopped here, everything is okay, but, you had to add something not needed.

What God knew would happen was destined to happen. Since we are talking about a destiny which God knew before there was anything in existence but Himself - who is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?

The answer is God. God predestines everything which happens in His creation.

Why do you add predestination? It is not needed. Everything God knows will happen, is going to happen without predestination.

Do you think His knowledge is incomplete without predestination? Can anything happen according to His knowledge without predestination?

 

[sdowney717]

Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[EmSw]

Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And I suppose this supports predestination?

 

[bling]

God knows, always has known, and always will know everything past, present, and future - both actual and possible.

That’s the definition we memorized in school. Every one of those categories of omniscience is clearly attested to in the scriptures.

These all encompassing facets of the attribute of omniscience is something inherent in the nature of God.

The old saying from school asks the question, “Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has ever occurred to God?”

God “learns” nothing. God is perfect and always has been. If knowledge can be added to Him – He was not perfect to begin with.

If you could somehow be taken back to the “beginning” (“before the foundation of the world”) with God – He could tell you everything that will happen in history even before there was a world created to have a history.

Whether we are talking about how many rain drops will fall on North America in the year 2017 or whether we are talking about who will accept Jesus as Savior and when they will make that decision out of their wills – God knew it all.

He didn’t guess about it. He didn’t “look down through history” and see it happening. He simply knew it without shadow of doubt.

Given this truth – is there any chance that what God “knew” would happen at any given time would not happen. The answer is an emphatic NO.

What God knew would happen was "destined" to happen. Since we are talking about a destiny which God knew before there was anything in existence but Himself - who is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?

The answer is God. God predestines everything which happens in His creation.

He sends forth His Word to accomplish exactly what He not only knows will happen but exactly what He intends to happen according to His omniscience, foreknowledge and omnipresent providential control of all things.

Everything that happens from rain to people requires literally multiplied trillions of actions by God on every conceivable level to bring them to past and to uphold them as they are brought to past.

Everything is created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things consist.

God is not just transcendent – He is also immanent on every level in the universe.

“Do I not fill Heaven and earth?” God asks.

In Him we live and move and have our being.

If everyone can resist the temptation to talk about people being robots and computers – can’t we at least agree to, as a basic starting point, these most basic concepts of all?

God is God. We are the creation. Within that framework and that framework only – we somehow have “being” - created in His image. Our personal decisions are the mechanism, as it were, which God uses, among other things, to bring what He has predestined to happen to past.

I think it fair to call these and a few other related concepts the basics of "Christianity 101".

If you haven't incorporated these basic truths into your knowledge base – you are not equipped to even begin to understand soteriology.

The problem is you do not address: “How God know all free will choices of man”?

The “Theory of Relativity” has been supported for the last 100 years and nothing has contradicted it, so would you agree “time” seems to relative?

If we talk about time being totally relative to God (God existing outside of human time and maybe even creating human time) than there is a way for mature adult humans to truly make at least one simple autonomous free will choice and also have God know that choice from the beginning of time.

We can understand how we could know historically a free will choice of individual (like Peter denying Christ) and that history has happened and cannot be changed even by God.

We could also imagine the God of the distant future at the end of time knowing historically all the free will choices humans ever made, but if time is relative for God could the God at the end of time send that information back to Himself at the beginning of time (well before anything was created) so the God at the beginning of time knew all that will happen?

God in His communication with humans would not go into the “how He does anything” and would communicate with humans with their limited understanding, which we see a lot of.

So in Conclusion:

God at the beginning of time knows everything about every human he has decided to make prior to them being made since at the “moment” (if there is such a thing for God) of just deciding to make an individual that individual is also born, lives, makes choices, dies and goes to heaven or hell.

Historic knowledge of the individual (which is known by God from the beginning of time) does not keep the individual from making free will choices while the individual lives.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The problem is you do not address: “How God know all free will choices of man”?

The “Theory of Relativity” has been supported for the last 100 years and nothing has contradicted it, so would you agree “time” seems to relative?

If we talk about time being totally relative to God (God existing outside of human time and maybe even creating human time) than there is a way for mature adult humans to truly make at least one simple autonomous free will choice and also have God know that choice from the beginning of time.

We can understand how we could know historically a free will choice of individual (like Peter denying Christ) and that history has happened and cannot be changed even by God.

We could also imagine the God of the distant future at the end of time knowing historically all the free will choices humans ever made, but if time is relative for God could the God at the end of time send that information back to Himself at the beginning of time (well before anything was created) so the God at the beginning of time knew all that will happen?

God in His communication with humans would not go into the “how He does anything” and would communicate with humans with their limited understanding, which we see a lot of.

So in Conclusion:

God at the beginning of time knows everything about every human he has decided to make prior to them being made since at the “moment” (if there is such a thing for God) of just deciding to make an individual that individual is also born, lives, makes choices, dies and goes to heaven or hell.

Historic knowledge of the individual (which is known by God from the beginning of time) does not keep the individual from making free will choices while the individual lives.

Lots of thoughts there. I really couldn't follow them all or even agree with the ones I did follow.

Be that as it may - do you see anywhere in my post where I denied that men can make real choices. You seem to be coming from there.

The predestination of the choices of men includes their ability to make those choices out of their own wills. In fact the choices of men are in many instances the means which God uses to bring about what He has predestined.

The predestination of the choices of men no more does away with the ability of men to think and choose than does the predestination of continental drift do away with the laws of geology.

 

[EmSw]

Lots of thoughts there. I really couldn't follow them all or even agree with the ones I did follow.

Be that as it may - do you see anywhere in my post where I denied that men can make real choices. You seem to be coming from there.

The predestination of the choices of men includes their ability to make those choices out of their own wills. In fact the choices of men are in many instances the means which God uses to bring about what He has predestined.

The predestination of the choices of men no more does away with the ability of men to think and choose than does the predestination of continental drift do away with the laws of geology.

When are you going to get off your predestination fancies? If man's choices are limited to predestination, then he has no choices at all, but what has been presented to him.

If your belief is true, then you haven't been predestined to make the choice of believing Ezekiel 18:31. You can't freely choose to believe this passage is true with your predestination. Therefore God has predestined you to not believe what He says. In fact, you will deny God's truth in this passage. How about that, God has predestined you to deny truth, and you have no freedom to choose otherwise.

 

[bling]

Lots of thoughts there. I really couldn't follow them all or even agree with the ones I did follow.

Be that as it may - do you see anywhere in my post where I denied that men can make real choices. You seem to be coming from there.

The predestination of the choices of men includes their ability to make those choices out of their own wills. In fact the choices of men are in many instances the means which God uses to bring about what He has predestined.

The predestination of the choices of men no more does away with the ability of men to think and choose than does the predestination of continental drift do away with the laws of geology.

You said: “…is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?” and “He sends forth His Word to accomplish exactly what He not only knows will happen but exactly what He intends to happen according to His omniscience, foreknowledge and omnipresent providential control of all things.”

God does not bring everything to past that he knows will happen, because what God knows will happen has already happened in our future (His present “time”) yet some of what happened was the result of man’s free will choice which is not “controlled” by God, so God at the beginning does knows what will happen the same way God at the end of time knows what happened (the same omnipresent God).

God did bring about what had to happen in man’s future, but God wanted all humans to be saved and that did not come about, because people in the future chose not to accept His offer.

 

[Marvin Knox]

When are you going to get off your predestination fancies?

When God does.

God does not bring everything to past that he knows will happen

Quite right. The opposite is true.

God knows what will happen precisely because He intends to bring it to past.

.... some of what happened was the result of man’s free will choice

Exactly as I have said.

.... which is not “controlled” by God

Not controlled in the sense that man's choice was not involved and meaningful or of his own volition. But controlled in the sense that God provided every circumstance from among an infinite number of circumstances knowing what would and would not occur in every circumstance.

..the same omnipresent God

Exactly.

God does not observe from afar things which happen in His creation. He is both transcendent and immanent.

Nothing can happen which He is not intimately involved with in some way.

The concept of the old "Jeffersonian" God who simply started things going and now observes from afar has not been left open to us.

All things were created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word have their existence. In Him we live and move and have our being.

The attribute of God's "aseity" must be incorporated into ones thinking if they are to understand these things.

That means that nothing but God Himself has the power of ontological independence. Everything else in the creation owes it's being to the presence of God's Word which has been sent forth to accomplish exactly what God sent Him forth to bring to past.

 

[sdowney717]

When are you going to get off your predestination fancies? If man's choices are limited to predestination, then he has no choices at all, but what has been presented to him.

If your belief is true, then you haven't been predestined to make the choice of believing Ezekiel 18:31. You can't freely choose to believe this passage is true with your predestination. Therefore God has predestined you to not believe what He says. In fact, you will deny God's truth in this passage. How about that, God has predestined you to deny truth, and you have no freedom to choose otherwise.

People make their choices from the situation presented to them, they can not escape the circumstances of their lives. For those who love God who are the called according to His purposes all things work to their good. So the circumstances of their life and the choices they make are bound within the parameters God has ordained for them. And since God is love, for those He has called, their choices will eventually have a glorious result. No one has the free will to just be or do anything they desire, all persons are constrained by circumstances.

AMPC version says it well
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him].

 

[sdowney717]

Another example, here regarding business, it is all up to God how that will actually work out, If God is willing or not. I ask for help and guidance from God every single day to get through my short life on this wicked world. I learned long ago, this world of pain is not my home.

James 4:12-15Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
12 One only is the Lawgiver and Judge Who is able to save and to destroy [the One Who has the absolute power of life and death]. [But you] who are you that [you presume to] pass judgment on your neighbor?

13 Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a city and spend a year there and carry on our business and make money.

14 Yet you do not know [the least thing] about what may happen tomorrow. What is the nature of your life? You are [really] but a wisp of vapor (a puff of smoke, a mist) that is visible for a little while and then disappears [into thin air].

15 You ought instead to say, If the Lord is willing, we shall live and we shall do this or that [thing].


Acts 14:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
Strengthening the Converts
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

 

[DeaconDean]

God predestines everything which happens in His creation.

For once, I agree.

But...have you actually looked at the context in which the word "predestinate" is used?

Let us look at the definition given in Kittels dictionary. From Rom. 8:29, we have the word: prowpisev; From the root word: proorizw, which means: to limit or mark out beforehand, predestine.

According to the dictionary (Kittel's), K. L. Schmidt comments:

This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense to foreordain; to predestinate. Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn, 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou , Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, proopizw, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

So there you have it, predestination is the mode by which God used to conform the elect to the image of His Son, by which we (the elect) are appointed to divine sonship.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[shakewell]

What God knew would happen was "destined" to happen. Since we are talking about a destiny which God knew before there was anything in existence but Himself - who is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?

That statement has no meaning.
I know what I had for supper last night. I can't have not had what I had for supper. My knowledge doesn't cause me to have had what I had for supper. Knowledge of the future is the same as knowledge of the past; it's knowledge. Knowledge isn't a causal of destiny. You merely assert that it is.

 

[sdowney717]

That statement has no meaning.
I know what I had for supper last night. I can't have not had what I had for supper. My knowledge doesn't cause me to have had what I had for supper. Knowledge of the future is the same as knowledge of the past; it's knowledge. Knowledge isn't a causal of destiny. You merely assert that it is.

So you don't believe God determines anything, is it just randomness, luck that you happen to believe in Him? Somehow you were a better learner, so then salvation is like evolution where the smarter and stronger survive to get eternal life.

 

[Adstar]

What God knew would happen was "destined" to happen. Since we are talking about a destiny which God knew before there was anything in existence but Himself - who is the one who predestined those things to happen and brought them eventually to past?

Noo God did not cause the rebellion of satan to happen.. God did not cause Adam and eve to join satan in His rebellion.. God does not cause the Jews to rebel against him time after time after time in the OT.. God Foreknew that it would all happen,, but God did not force anyone to do what He foreknow they would do..

Please read scripture which deals with the predestination of God..

Romans 8: KJV
29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Note the foreknowledge comes before the predestination..... There are No idol words in scripture.. The word foreknow is placed there for a reason,, a very important reason.. It is not a useless word of no consequence..

 

[sdowney717]

Noo God did not cause the rebellion of satan to happen.. God did not cause Adam and eve to join satan in His rebellion.. God does not cause the Jews to rebel against him time after time after time in the OT.. God Foreknew that it would all happen,, but God did not force anyone to do what He foreknow they would do..

Please read scripture which deals with the predestination of God..

Romans 8: KJV
29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Note the foreknowledge comes before the predestination..... There are No idol words in scripture.. The word foreknow is placed there for a reason,, a very important reason.. It is not a useless word of no consequence..

And this is foreknow a person, not to foreknow what a person does.

'For whom He did foreknow'

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

 

[Adstar]

And this is foreknow a person, not to foreknow what a person does.

'For whom He did foreknow'

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

You mean to tell me you do not believe God foreknows what we shall do in the future ?

Of course God knows our every action and thought we shall ever think or do.. before we where even born..

 

[EmSw]

That statement has no meaning.
I know what I had for supper last night. I can't have not had what I had for supper. My knowledge doesn't cause me to have had what I had for supper. Knowledge of the future is the same as knowledge of the past; it's knowledge. Knowledge isn't a causal of destiny. You merely assert that it is.

And many of the Reformed will tell you God's knowledge is nothing without predestination.

 

[EmSw]

So you don't believe God determines anything, is it just randomness, luck that you happen to believe in Him? Somehow you were a better learner, so then salvation is like evolution where the smarter and stronger survive to get eternal life.

Why don't you just believe what the Bible says? It tells us what and how God determines things.

Zachariah 1:6
‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.’

God does not determine how He deals with man before man does anything. It is a Reformed fallacy that God determines how He deals with man before man is born.

Man acts, and according to his ways and deeds, God then determines how He deals with man. It's amazing how puny man thinks He knows how God determines what to do with us.

 

[EmSw]

And this is foreknow a person, not to foreknow what a person does.

'For whom He did foreknow'

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

God foreknew everyone, even every single atom and molecule each person possesses. You so much just want God to foreknow you and those who believe as you do. You have not only limited God's foreknowledge, but you have made a mockery of it.