Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

[Kenny'sID]

Obedience is the fruit not the cause or bases for salvation. Lose of salvation doctrine stems from unbelief in the gospel message and a heart that lacks true repentance

Yeah, well, you know, that ones getting pretty old to, so I'll answer like I often do, first of all Jesus just then said otherwise, both Jesus and the individual acting right is the cause of their salvation.

Maybe read this again, I mean, it's telling you what i just said...takes two to tango.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

As to "Obedience is the fruit not the cause or bases for salvation". Then you are saying if we don't produce the fruit we aren't saved? And before you say they were never saved to begin with if they do not, prove it. People get saved all the time and fall away.

 

[Kenny'sID]

People must have the precious Holy Spirit inside
to understand much of anything (spiritually).
Many in the churches are NOT saved.

If they are teaching what they are here, well, all I can say is wake up or suffer the consequences.

Ditto for me ... he refuses to explain how or why
the dire warning verses in the NT re: losing salvation
(many of which have been posted in several threads)
... are not warnings about this at all.

Seriously, their doctrine falls apart every time, and anyone with an eye can see it if they look at the signs, signs just like that.

 

[MDC]

Since you persist with this very common line which means nothing, Let me point out the little trick trick in that, then you can spout it all you like, and others like it and readers will be aware of what you are doing. See you try to trick the listener into believing if they disagree, there is something wrong with them, when in fact, there is something wrong with you/the comment because it's only half the story, at best. The rest of it, as I already said, you have to obey him. So yes, Jesus is quite capable of doing his part, but you have to do yours

Now it's your turn to actually answer, once again, are you saying we don't have to obey what Jesus said in the scripture? Or that we don't have to meet a condition in order to be saved? I'm not asking you again, but we all know what a lack of answer means.

You aren’t looking to see if I believe obedience follows a believer. All you want to prove is that your works is the bases for salvation. See your doctrine lacks faith in the gospel. Jesus does His part huh? While man must do his to be saved. That’s deception! Jesus said, “ come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mathew 11:28. Only those who are weighed down by their sin and seek forgiveness come unto Christ alone for salvation. Those who are well are in no need for Him

 

[BCsenior]

... obedience follows a believer.

Obedience follows the true believer
... who has true saving faith!

C'mon, most "believers" aren't obedient at all.

Salvation is a co-operative effort
between God and the true believer.
Each has a BIG part to play in man's salvation!

 

[MDC]

Obedience follows the true believer
... who has true saving faith!

C'mon, most "believers" aren't obedient at all.

Salvation is a co-operative effort
between God and the true believer.
Each has a BIG part to play in man's salvation!

You are either a believer or unbeliever. There’s no in between. Salvation is all of grace and all in Christ alone. Believers are resting in this truth. Those who advocate cooperative salvation between man and Christ fall into the unbeliever side.

 

[His student]

Everything is CONDITIONAL... so.... Those who endure in the faith to the endkeep their righteous standing with God!

Another same old same old.

Again, as in many other threads of yours, you post your absolute best scriptures right up front. Then when you are asked to show where in those scriptures it says the things you say -- you can't do it.

If all of your best scriptures don't teach what you teach - why should anyone listen to you - even if you start dozens of threads with the same old anti-grace agenda?

 

[Toro]

There are conditions to salvation. Christ Himself said quite clearly in Matthew 7:21-23 for why would one say "Lord,Lord" to Him unless they thought they were saved?

Why would they "do many great works" as well as cast out demons in His name if they did not believe themselves saved?

Jesus even warns directly of being lukewarm in Revelation 3:16.

Faith without works is dead... if all you have is faith, the Bible says it is dead without the works to accompany that faith. James 2:14-26.

The world is full of people that call themselves Christians, but live just as Adam did, justified his flesh and excused his sin against God.

Now we justify the idolatry of money as "everyone needs money" or "I could help so many people". Instead of simply being content with what God has blessed them with, they focus on what He hasnt given them.

Or we justify the eyes of lust as "I'm only human" or "Looking isnt the same as touching" even while Jesus Himself said, looking IS the same as touching.

Jesus said in : Luke 14:26-33 if you do not take up your cross and follow Him. Meaning that we must die to our will every day and take on the Fathers will, just as Jesus did.

That means if we do not want to forgive in our will... too bad. We know the will of the Father is for us to do as He does to us, forgive, otherwise we are not forgiven either.

How can any of us be a prodigal son or daughter unless we are brothers or sisters to the very one that God said is His son? Matthew 3:17

Those that were direct relation to Jesus did not even classify as His brothers, sisters or mother unless they do the will of the Father. Matthew 12:46-50 Mark 3:35

How is God our Father unless Jesus is our brother?

To endure to the end and fight the good fight means to continue every single day, every moment to be more and more like Christ through humility and prayer of serving the will of the Father above our own will to the best of our ability.

Will we be perfect while in this flesh? No, but we can pray that the Lord will change our wicked hearts to be more closer to His own, to no longer accept and excuse sin as if it is okay but to see it for what it is, sin and pray to overcome that sin.

Why is faith dead without works? Because we can say "I love Jesus" we can give all praise to God, but if the inside of our cup remains dirty and wicked, we are absolutely no better off than the Pharisees. Matthew 5:20.

Excusing sin means we are "okay" with our heart being that way and IF we are okay with our heart remaining wicked... would our hearts not be unequally yolked in Heaven to remain content in darkness?

IF we do not endure til the end, we chose the life of the flesh that leads to death, not the life of the Spirit which leads to life. Every day is a new day to choose flesh or Spirit.

 

[pasifika]

Continuing belief-faith is necessary for
continuing salvation-eternal life

“… whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him may have [may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him should not perish but have [continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
These verbs in Greek and English are in the
present tense … always believing and having!

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)

“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you, IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

“So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it … every act of disobedience was punished. So what makes us think we can escape, IF we ignore this great salvation” (Hebrews 2:1-3)

“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ …
Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For IF we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:6,12-14)

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
(2 Timothy 2:12)

“… follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.” (Hebrews 6:11-12)

“Patient endurance is what you need, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. … ‘And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.’ But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction (eternal death).” (Hebrews 10:36-39)

“Stay true to what is right (the true gospel) for
the sake of your own salvation and the salvation
of those who hear you.” (1 Timothy 4:16)

“… work out your own salvation with fear
and trembling … holding fast the word of life,
so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ
that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”
(Philippians 2:12,16)
If they fail to endure, Paul has wasted his efforts!

“... you have been grieved by various trials
that the genuineness of your faith … though it is
tested by fire … receiving the end of your faith
— the salvation of your souls.” (1 Peter 1:7-9)

This has nothing to do with rewards …
“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of (eternal) life that God has promised to those who love him.” (James 1:12)

4 times in John 14, Jesus said (paraphrasing): Those
who love Me will obey (keep) My commandments.

“God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12)

Because of all of the above verses,
this also refers to salvation …
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”
(Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Everything is CONDITIONAL … so …
Those who endure in the faith to the end
keep their righteous standing with God!

Nothing is conditional, regarding our faith, salvation etc. But all about God's Sovereign choice and mercy. Titus 3:4,5 " But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us not because of righteous things we have done, but because of His mercy.."

 

[lsume]

Continuing belief-faith is necessary for
continuing salvation-eternal life

“… whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him may have [may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him should not perish but have [continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
These verbs in Greek and English are in the
present tense … always believing and having!

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)

“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you, IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

“So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it … every act of disobedience was punished. So what makes us think we can escape, IF we ignore this great salvation” (Hebrews 2:1-3)

“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ …
Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For IF we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:6,12-14)

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
(2 Timothy 2:12)

“… follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.” (Hebrews 6:11-12)

“Patient endurance is what you need, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. … ‘And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.’ But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction (eternal death).” (Hebrews 10:36-39)

“Stay true to what is right (the true gospel) for
the sake of your own salvation and the salvation
of those who hear you.” (1 Timothy 4:16)

“… work out your own salvation with fear
and trembling … holding fast the word of life,
so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ
that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”
(Philippians 2:12,16)
If they fail to endure, Paul has wasted his efforts!

“... you have been grieved by various trials
that the genuineness of your faith … though it is
tested by fire … receiving the end of your faith
— the salvation of your souls.” (1 Peter 1:7-9)

This has nothing to do with rewards …
“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of (eternal) life that God has promised to those who love him.” (James 1:12)

4 times in John 14, Jesus said (paraphrasing): Those
who love Me will obey (keep) My commandments.

“God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12)

Because of all of the above verses,
this also refers to salvation …
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”
(Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Everything is CONDITIONAL … so …
Those who endure in the faith to the end
keep their righteous standing with God!

There are things that happen to a wayward born again Christian that can be extremely unpleasant. God will not lose any of His elect. However, chastisement and scourging will not be far from those who begin to fall. First you have to believe. Ones obedience is directly related to that person’s faith. I can’t say that it’s proportional though it may be. The more you believe, the more obedient you should be.

 

[Neogaia777]

Continuing belief-faith is necessary for
continuing salvation-eternal life

“… whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him may have [may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [continues to believe] in Him should not perish but have [continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
These verbs in Greek and English are in the
present tense … always believing and having!

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)

“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you, IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

“So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it … every act of disobedience was punished. So what makes us think we can escape, IF we ignore this great salvation” (Hebrews 2:1-3)

“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ …
Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God … so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For IF we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:6,12-14)

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
(2 Timothy 2:12)

“… follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.” (Hebrews 6:11-12)

“Patient endurance is what you need, so that you will continue to do God’s will. Then you will receive all that he has promised. … ‘And my righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.’ But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction (eternal death).” (Hebrews 10:36-39)

“Stay true to what is right (the true gospel) for
the sake of your own salvation and the salvation
of those who hear you.” (1 Timothy 4:16)

“… work out your own salvation with fear
and trembling … holding fast the word of life,
so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ
that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”
(Philippians 2:12,16)
If they fail to endure, Paul has wasted his efforts!

“... you have been grieved by various trials
that the genuineness of your faith … though it is
tested by fire … receiving the end of your faith
— the salvation of your souls.” (1 Peter 1:7-9)

This has nothing to do with rewards …
“God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of (eternal) life that God has promised to those who love him.” (James 1:12)

4 times in John 14, Jesus said (paraphrasing): Those
who love Me will obey (keep) My commandments.

“God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12)

Because of all of the above verses,
this also refers to salvation …
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”
(Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13)

Everything is CONDITIONAL … so …
Those who endure in the faith to the end
keep their righteous standing with God!

To the title statement: "Is it our will, or God's will working in us and through us and out of us, that does this or accomplishes this...?

Our will is our own works, and as a work, or works, it is works of flesh, and as a work of the flesh, or our own work, and not God's in us, it is "Sin" also, and is "sinful" also...

It's about God's will taking over, and about submitting to Him and that... that "He" then begins a work and/or working in you, (flowing out from you and through you, but through or because of Him in you, and not you, ect) that allows you to do this or that, or the things you say, and not any other way, cause that, or any other way, is Sin...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

To the title statement: "Is it our will, or God's will working in us and through us and out of us, that does this or accomplishes this...?

Our will is our own works, and as a work, or works, it is works of flesh, and as a work of the flesh, or our own work, and not God's in us, it is "Sin" also, and is "sinful" also...

It's about God's will taking over, and about submitting to Him and that... that "He" then begins a work and/or working in you, (flowing out from you and through you, but through or because of Him in you, and not you, ect) that allows you to do this or that, or the things you say, and not any other way, cause that, or any other way, is Sin...

God Bless!

This happens only by complete surrender and submission... continually and perpetually maybe...

God Bless!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Nothing is conditional, regarding our faith, salvation etc. But all about God's Sovereign choice and mercy. Titus 3:4,5 " But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us not because of righteous things we have done, but because of His mercy.."

You left off what is most important and conditional in Titus 3. "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

To receive the Holy Spirit you must repent of all sin - that is the condition. Acts 2:38. What we are not saved because of is trying to be righteous by our own carnal flesh - works. Impossible! Only through the empowering of the Holy Spirit are we born again and receive a new nature that does not sin. So if you think you can be saved and still have no power to not sin, that is a sign one doesn't have the seed of the Father - the Holy Spirit. A person who keeps sinning doesn't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

 

[friend of]

Then what does it mean to endure? If one is despairing of their life and despairing of their salvation status and not fully trusting even though they had once profess to Believe In Christ sacrifice are they still saved or are they too far away moved from the gospel at this point?

 

[Neogaia777]

You left off what is most important and conditional in Titus 3. "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

To receive the Holy Spirit you must repent of all sin - that is the condition. Acts 2:38. What we are not saved because of is trying to be righteous by our own carnal flesh - works. Impossible! Only through the empowering of the Holy Spirit are we born again and receive a new nature that does not sin. So if you think you can be saved and still have no power to not sin, that is a sign one doesn't have the seed of the Father - the Holy Spirit. A person who keeps sinning doesn't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

One might have had the Holy Spirit in them maybe prior to being, or showing proof of being saved, but He might have been against them at that time, until He is or was no longer against them anymore, by one who is in true and full and complete submission to Him and His will, and not their own, then, of course, the proof of that would be or might be complete freedom from sin... or at least, for most of us at least, during the times that we are, or are of it or Him, ect... When were walking in that, ect...

And are not enemies of His, ect... First you have to have and make peace with Him (God) (H.S.)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Then what does it mean to endure? If one is despairing of their life and despairing of their salvation status and not fully trusting even though they had once profess to Believe In Christ sacrifice are they still saved or are they too far away moved from the gospel at this point?

The Truth/truth will make you laugh...

God Bless!

 

[dad]

Continuing belief-faith is necessary for

continuing salvation-eternal life

Though we are faithless, yet He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself.

 

[dad]

And yes he alone can and does as long as you obey him. You saw the scripture I just quoted, are you saying you don't have to obey him?

You saying you can keep the commandments? You saying works keep you saved?

 

[His student]

Those who endure in the faith to the end keep their righteous standing with God!

"IF" anyone involved in this thread has abandoned the faith it is you.

"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

 

[1stcenturylady]

One might have had the Holy Spirit in them maybe prior to being, or showing proof of being saved, but He might have been against them at that time, until He is or was no longer against them anymore, by one who is in true and full and complete submission to Him and His will, and not their own, then, of course, the proof of that would be or might be complete freedom from sin... or at least, for most of us at least, during the times that we are, or are of it or Him, ect... When were walking in that, ect...

And are not enemies of His, ect... First you have to have and make peace with Him (God) (H.S.)...

God Bless!

It is my understanding that if you have the Holy Spirit you do show proof of being saved, and God is not against you, so don't know what you are basing your statement on. That is not to say that the Spirit has shown us all truth from day one, but when you have been shown a new truth to you, you have the desire to do it. The Spirit gives us revelation knowledge at different stages of our walk with Him.

 

[pasifika]

You left off what is most important and conditional in Titus 3. "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

To receive the Holy Spirit you must repent of all sin - that is the condition. Acts 2:38. What we are not saved because of is trying to be righteous by our own carnal flesh - works. Impossible! Only through the empowering of the Holy Spirit are we born again and receive a new nature that does not sin. So if you think you can be saved and still have no power to not sin, that is a sign one doesn't have the seed of the Father - the Holy Spirit. A person who keeps sinning doesn't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

My friend, you CANNOT REPENT unless God puts repentance into your heart. 1Timothy 2:3 " Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that GOD WILL GRANT THEM REPENTANCE leading them to a knowledge of the truth"..