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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by fli, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Non-responsive.
    .
     
  2. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

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    Post #4 you wrote:
    "But we are everywhere in the NT commanded to engage in obedience by the Holy Spirit """in the process of sanctification, leading to holiness"""

    Same post you wrote:
    "True faith obeys in the Holy Spirit, """which is the process of sanctification leading to holiness""".

    In Post #39 I shared Vines dictionary [later KJV dictionary's well] that disagrees with this statement you've repeatedly claimed: """sanctification leading to holiness""".

    Same post I wrote: "Sanctification & holiness are one in the same.

    In post #47 you wrote: Agreed.
    The process of holiness leads to actual holiness, just as
    the process of sanctification leads to actual sanctification, and
    the process of sanctification leads to actual holiness,

    Clare,
    If you agree [with both Vine's & KJV dictionary's] that "Sanctification & holiness are one in the same. How can one lead to another???

    BTW: The meaning of both is [separated or set apart]

    You've repeatedly asked me to speak to your, QUOTE: "authoritative teaching" [via a carpet bombing of verses posted]. I have ZERO problem with any authoritative bible verse you posted.

    My comment was specific to your claim: ""sanctification leads to holiness"". This unscriptural claim suggests we have a part/roll/work in becoming sanctified or holy.

    Both are positional actions, each being God invoked, can never be lost & require no action on our part.

    Again I'll clarify:

    The word HOLY is [like salvation] a position. It means separated for a Godly purpose/work & one doen't lead to the other.

    This action is invoked 100% by the Lord & isn't earned of worked for. Though the work/purpose we have been set apart for, continues until the day we meet the Lord.

    Others reading this exchange can make their own decision as to which is accurate.

    The Temple had HOLY vessels, utensils, a holy place & the holy of holies.

    QUESTION: What act of good works or will did the vessels, utensils of sanctuaries do to be called holy?

    ANSWER: None! They were purified by being anointed with oil (the oil was a foreshadow of the Holy Spirit) this anointing with oil set apart/sanctified/made holy the vessels & utensils.

    Ex 40:9 And thou shalt take the anointing oil, and anoint the tabernacle, and all that is therein, and shalt hallow it, and all the vessels thereof: and it shall be holy.

    When a believer places their faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection. Christ baptizes/anoints the believer with His Holy Spirit.

    At this moment of the Christ's Holy Spirit Anointing the believer is: Saved/justified=declared righteous/sanctified & holy all in ONE anointing.

    It's a God given position Paul refers to many times as "in Christ".

    We are now saved/justified = judicially declared righteous by a sovereign God. Sanctified = separated/set apart, for a HOLY purpose/work.

    We are not holy because of any work we do. We are holy because Jesus bought/took our sin & all it's due judgments.

    Jesus anoints us with His Holy Spirit (a gift Acts 2:38 & 10:45), forgiving ALL our sins, freely imputing us with the gift of righteousness (Rom:4:6, 22 & 5:17), the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23). Gifts are given & not earned/worked for.

    Deut 7:
    6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

    8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    (MY NOTE: The were called HOLY because the LORD loved, choose & set them apart/sanctified them, for a particular purpose/work. Also see Deut 14:2)

    All praise, glory & honor belong to our great God & Savior, Jesus.

    Clare,
    May His grace be multiplied to you & yours, JJ
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    And why will you not address the word of God in the Scriptures I presented?
    Why do you instead argue against the word of God in them?
    Why are you setting the word of God against itself?
    Then why do you not address them and the action required by us in them?
    And we do!

    Did you actually read those Scriptures? They command engagement, action.
    Let me stop here to thank you for the otherwise thought-out and thorough response, before I proceed with the following.

    In the practical order (practicing) of the Christian life, because they are one and the same, one leads to another
    the same way that practice of a skill leads to growth in the same skill,
    the same way that in basketball, the practice of landing shots leads to growth in landing points, which are equivalent to one another (the same thing) in the game of basketball.
    Indeed. . .and Biblically, it means "set apart" . .from sin, and to God.
    Excellent!

    They are positional. . .and they are also progressive.
    It's not either/or, it's both/and.

    In addition to being declared sanctified/holy through faith in Christ's atoning death on the cross (i.e., justification),

    the NT likewise teaches being made sanctified/holy by the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers (i.e., process of sanctification), through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

    The NT presents two kinds of righteousness/sanctification/holiness:

    righteousness of justification (positional--right standing with God's justice--not guilty, sanctified) and

    righteousness of sanctification (progressive--a process of growth in sancification/holiness).


    Holiness/sanctification is
    both positional and progressive (a process).

    We are everywhere in the NT commanded to engage in the action of a process of holiness/sanctification.
    Yes. . .and the Godly purpose is separation from sin, and to God,
    the godly purpose is "called to be holy," (1 Corinthians 1:2)
    That is correct of positional holiness/sanctification.

    It is not correct of progressive holiness/sanctification--action in which we are to engage in our daily lives,
    everywhere commanded in the NT, for example in the Scriptures presented, and many others.

    "It is God's will that you be sanctified. . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

    ". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Lev 11:44-45.' "
    (1 Peter 1:15-16)

    "Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
    offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)


    Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness.

    (Romans 6:22)

    ". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
    perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)


    . . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."

    (Romans 6:16)

    The above Scriptures do not contradict positional righteousness/sanctification/holiness,

    they are the process of the progressive righteousness/sanctification/holiness in which we are to engage in our daily lives, which is why the writer of Hebrews states:
    "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14

    He's not making a point about not having what we do have in positional righteousness/sanctification/
    holiness,
    he's making a point about the process of progressive growth in righteousness/sanctification/holiness.

    Does "Brother" in your name indicate any kind of position or office?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Okay, "faith in God is also faith in Jesus who is the same God."

    So to be clear: Those who have faith in God and obey his laws (e.g., Orthodox Jews) do not necessarily, by that faith in God, also have faith in Jesus who is the same God and, therefore,
    all faith in God is not also faith in Jesus who is the same God, and all faith in God does not save.

    Do you agree?

    If I got it wrong, I apologize for my error.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  5. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 3 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him bethe glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ is the exact expression of God's nature, so those who have faith in God's nature necessarily also have faith in Christ, and those who don't have faith in Christ also don't have faith in God's nature.
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Who made that rule?

    Where in Scripture is God's "nature" ever stated to be the object of faith?

    Clever times (multiplied by) half.

    More torquing of Scripture to allow the salvation of Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

    One foot in, one foot out.

    Anathema! (curem)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  8. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Well-Known Member

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    I highlighted your post on a public discussion (not argument) forum, filled with a variety of opinions.

    I disagree with your posted positions on sanctification & holiness. I presented my position, I explained my disinterest in a verse by verse interpretation discussion. Within the carpet bombing of scripture in your post & replies. All being unrelated to the point I rose.

    To be clear, my disagreement isn't with God's word. It's with your posted definitions of sanctification & holiness leading to one another.

    KJV Dictionary SANCTIFICA'TION definition: The act of making holy, the act of consecrating or of setting apart for a sacred purpose.

    (MY NOTE: To sanctify, something is to set it apart for sacred purpose/work. It's Christ that sanctifes us void of any action on our part beyond faith)

    Eternal Salvation
    The moment we believe/trust place our faith in Christ's Sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. Christ saves/justifies = Judicially declares us righteous (via imputing His righteousness onto us) we are now Holy as well (not because of work we've done).

    At the same moment Christ saves/justifies/declares us righteous/making us holy, He sanctifies =sets us apart, for a work/mission Eph 2:10)

    All the above: salvation/justification/righteousness/holiness/sanctification are all a one time event. Happening simultaneously when Christ baptizes/seals us with His forever indwelling Holy Spirit.

    The sealing us with His indwelling Holy Spirit). At the same (Holy Spirit baptism) moment & sanctifies (sets us apart, for a work/mission Eph 2:10).

    At the moment we truly make the decision to trust Christ we are justified = Judicially declared righteous by a sovereign Creator God = Saved (DONE DEAL). Our salvation is forever secure via receiving the eternal seal of God's indwelling Holy Spirit. We are also SANCTIFIED = set apart for a for an ongoing purpose/work/mission that continues until the day we meet the Lord.

    Sanctification & Holiness:

    Holiness is a Christ invoked positional action & isn't earned or worked for. Christ removed our sins & Christ imputes (Rom 4:8 11, 22, 23, 24, Ja 2:23) His righteousness onto us. We are now righteous & holy, not because of any great work we've done. Because of our Faith place in the great work He did.

    Sanctification is also a Christ invoked positional action & isn't earned or worked for. Having said that, the purpose/work/mission we are set apart for continues until the day we meet the Lord.

    Examples:
    John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    (NOTE: The Father, sanctified/set the Son apart, for a purpose/work/mission)

    Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    (MY NOTE: We are sanctified by faith that proceeds from Christ)

    Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
    (NOTE: The Holy Spirit sanctified/set Paul apart, for a purpose/work/mission)

    1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
    (NOTE: Jesus Christ via His indwelling Holy Spirit sanctified/set the Church apart, for an evangelical purpose/work/mission)

    Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    (NOTE: Thru faith in Christ's sin Payment & resurrection believers are sanctified/set apart, for a purpose/work/mission)

    Best wishes, JJ
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    They are very much related to your assertion of sanctification being only positional.
    And I've asked you to explain for me the Scritures which command me to practice sanctification/holiness, that I may reconcile your statement,
    "sanctification is all of Christ and void of any action on our part beyond faith,"
    with the Scriptures I presented before I cease all action in my daily life in their regard.
    Note the tense = present action in "making."
    And that sacred purpose is to be sanctified. . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:3), and
    "the purpose we are set apart for continues until the day we meet the Lord."
    But in addition to being declared sanctified/holy through faith in Christ's atoning death on the cross (i.e., justification),
    the NT likewise teaches being made sanctified/holy by the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers (i.e., process of sanctification), through obedience in the Holy Spirit.


    The NT presents sanctification as not only
    positional, but also progressive, a process of action in which we are commanded to engage that we may also grow in sanctification/holiness.

    "It is God's will that you be sanctified. . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

    "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)


    Hebrews is not making a point about not having what we do have in positional sanctification/holiness,

    it's making a point about the process of progressive growth in sanctification/holiness.

    And you still have not explained for me the Scriptures which command me to practice sanctification/holiness, that I may reconcile your statement,
    "sanctification is all of Christ and void of any action on our part beyond faith,"
    with the Scriputres I presented, before I cease all action in my daily life in that regard.
     
  10. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    To be saved, then we must know what "believe" means. Does "believe" mean DOING what Jesus commands (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:49; John 3:21) or does "believe" mean to simply mentally acknowledge what Christ says apart from DOING what He commanded?

    There is an obvious difference between DOING what He commands and NOT DOING what He commands.

    So is one saved at the point of DOING or saved at the point of NOT DOING what Christ says? Since DOING what Christ commands is OBEYING, then that means NOT DOING is DISOBEDIENCE. So again, is one saved at the point of DOING/OBEYING or saved by NOT DOING/DISOBEDIENCE? Are there Bible examples of those being saved who continued in NOT DOING what Christ says yet unconditionally saved anyway APART from DOING what Christ says? Does the Bible teach "obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) or teach DISobedience unto righteousness?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  11. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Romans 6:16, in context of Romans 5:19-21, is about Christ's obedience at the cross, and not your obedience.
     
  12. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    romans 6:16 is about one of two masters that men chose to serve, each man serves either 'sin unto death' (condemnation) or 'obedience unto righteousness' (salvation).

    Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Paul is not addressing Christ, but men.
     
  13. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Did you read Romans 5:12-19 to understand who sin unto death and who obey unto righteousness?
     
  14. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Paul is addressing MEN in MEN choosing who they serve to choose. Romans 5:12 has nothing to do with ROm 6:16 in MEN choosing which master they serve. Paul says nothing about Christ obeying for men but men must choose to obey Christ.
    Rom 5 Christ's obedience provides a remedy for sin that enter the world thru Adam. Those men who chose to serve Christ will have that remedy for sin.
     
  15. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So my point is that Romans 6:16 is not referring to YOUR obedience, but rather Christ's obedience.

    Are you disagreeing with that?
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so having faith in Jesus is synonymous with having faith in God's nature. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about God's righteous nature, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to them, we are testifying that we believe that God is righteous, or in other words, we are believing in Him. So by rejecting the Mosaic Law, people are denying that what it teaches us about the nature of God is true. I do not think that Scripture allows for salvation for those who reject Christ and God's nature. Our salvation is from sin and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites knew what sin is, so it is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from sin while also thinking that they don't need to obey the Mosaic Law.
     
  17. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 6:16 refers to each of the two possible masters each MAN chooses to obey. Each of us are either obeying "sin unto death" or serving "obedience unto righteousness". It is not referring to Christ.
     
  18. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    So I am asking you, based on how you understand Romans 5:12-19
    1. Who was the one that sinned unto death, was it Adam's sin or your own sin?
    2. Who was the one who was obedient unto righteousness, was it Christ's obedience or your own obedience?
    Once you understand that, you can now understand Romans 6:16 in context. Romans 6 is after Romans 5.
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    No. . .saving faith in Jesus Christ is faith in and trust on his person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) for the remission
    of one's sin
    and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," sanctified.
    "Having faith in God's nature" is extraneous to saving faith.
    More torquing of Scripture to allow the salvation of Orthodox Jews who reject Jesus Christ.

    One foot in, one foot out.

    Anathema! (curem)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Transformation (a heart of flesh for a heart of stone):
    (God's view looking down):
    But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. [Ephesians 2:4-9 NKJV]​

    (man's view looking up):
    In fact, it says, "The message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart." And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced." Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." [Romans 10:8-13 NLT]​

    Sanctification (walk the talk):
    (God's view looking down):
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. [Ephesians 2:10 NKJV]​

    (man's view looking up):
    In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God's promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with patient endurance, and patient endurance with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love for everyone. The more you grow like this, the more productive and useful you will be in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But those who fail to develop in this way are shortsighted or blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins. [2 Peter 1:5-9 NLT] ​

    Just offering my 2 cents.
     
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