Believe in Jesus and you will be saved

[fhansen]

So after we accept the gift, if we don't love others, we would have deemed to have rejected the gift?

Yes, the gift is given and meant to be exercised, expressed, and grown. We can definitely fail to appreciate and nurture it. We can turn away from and mock God. We can fail to value love and justice and righteousness, fail to value Him, and neighbor, at the end of the day.

And while man has a purpose, a teleos, a perfection that God has in mind for him, and that He’ll ultimately achieve in us, He doesn’t demand it all at once. He just wants us to embark on that journey, and keep on it, striving forward and getting back on if we stray but making more progress forward by the end of the day, with His grace, than not.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, the gift is given and meant to be exercised, expressed, and grown. We can definitely fail to appreciate and nurture it. We can turn away from and mock God. We can fail to value love and justice and righteousness, fail to value Him, and neighbor, at the end of the day.

And while man has a purpose, a teleos, a perfection that God has in mind for him, and that He’ll ultimately achieve in us, He doesn’t demand it all at once. He just wants us to embark on that journey, and keep on it, striving forward and getting back on if we stray but making more progress forward by the end of the day, with His grace, than not.

I see, we have different definition on what the term gift means then.

 

[fhansen]

I see, we have different definition on what the term gift means then.

Or what God expects of it, from us.

I mean, something is required of us regardless. We must, at least, believe, or burn in hell according to many or most. And while we can say that faith is a gift, that doesn't mean we have to open the package and benefit from it. Or to remain in that faith, in Him. Faith is the doorway to the life of grace-to God, and so to more gifts. And love, like faith, is both a gift and a choice. And if we say that neither are a choice, and but that either or both are necessary for salvation, then we're left with a God who places some into eternal torment-without regard to their choice.

 

[Clare73]

What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith, so
doing good works is what it means to believe.

Not on your life!
You are again (and again, and again, and again. . .) shorting what the NT presents as "to believe," leaving out the most important part of it, the object of that faith: the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not gjuilty."

those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Not on your life!
Orthodox Jews keep God's commandments while rejecting Jesus Christ.
Keeping God's commandments does not mean saving faith in Jesus Christ.

You are rewriting the NT so that Christ-rejecting Orthodox Jews are saved because of their law keeping.

Anathema! (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[Clare73]

Jesus and the works He did was to prove that He was the promised Messiah.
It is The Messiah who is Eternal Life and not His works.
And it is faith in the promised Messiah that gives Eternal Life.

Paul says otherwise: Jesus is "a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood."
(Romans 3:25)

Saving faith looks to Jesus Christ in his sacrificial death for us.

 

[d taylor]

Paul says otherwise: Jesus is "a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood."
(Romans 3:25)
Saving faith looks to Jesus Christ in his sacrificial death for us.

So Paul is greater than Jesus

 

[Clare73]

Bible dictionary definitions
disagree with your "sanctification leads to holiness" narrative.

I'm thinking Vine doesn't disagree with Romans 6:19, 22; 2 Corinthians 7:1.

Sanctification & holiness are one in the same.

Agreed.
The process of holiness leads to actual holiness, just as
the process of sanctification leads to actual sanctification, and
the process of sanctification leads to actual holiness,
a process we are everywhere commanded in the NT to engage.

They are God given & can never be lost.
They are Saved/Justified by a sovereign God = Judicially declared Righteous & forever free from all sins punitive punishments demanded under Mosaic law, And every believer is FREELY given (void of any personal works) the GIFT of eternal life.
Saved/justified/righteousness & sanctification/holiness are all a one time simultaneous event.

Seems like the NT is not agreement with you, for we are everywhere in the NT commanded to
engage in obedience by the Holy Spirit in the process of sanctification, leading to holiness
(Romans 6:19, 22; 2 Corinthians 7:1):

". . .be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy--Lev 11:44-45.' "
(1 Peter 1:15-16)

". . .called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2)

. . .slaves to sin which leads to death. . .slaves to obedience which leads to righteousness."
(Romans 6:16)

"Just as you used to offer parts of your body in slavery to impurity, so now
offer your body in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." (Romans 6:19)

Now that you have. . .become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness.
(Romans 6:22)

". . .let us purify ourselves from everthing that contaminates body and spirit,
perfecting (completing) holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

"Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)"
(Ephesians 5:9)

"It is God's will that you be sanctified. . ." (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

"May God himself. . .sanctify you through and through." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

". . .pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." (1 Timothy 6:11)

". . .pursue righteusness, faith, love and peace. . ." (2 Timothy 2:22)

". . .all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for. . .training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16)

"God disciplines us for our good that we may share in his holiness. . . discipline produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:10-11)

"die to sin and live for righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)

"everyone who does what is right has been born of him." (1 John 2:29)

"he who does what is right is righteous. . .he does what is sinful is of the devil," (1 John 3:7)

"Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1)

"Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desire." (Romans 6:12)

"Do not offer the parts of your body to sin. . .Offer them to God as instruments of righteousness." (Romans 6:13)

"Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

 

[Clare73]

So Paul is greater than Jesus

Paul got his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, and you are setting them against each other.

 

[d taylor]

Paul got his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, and you are setting them against each other.

That is correct, so then not Paul, but you are adding another object to what a person must trust in to receive Eternal Life.

Because if as you say, Paul receive how to receive Eternal Life from The Messiah and the Messiah never mentions that a person, must not only believe in Him, but also His work, to receive Eternal Life. Then why did Jesus never say believe in Him and His work to receive Eternal Life.

Because Paul has not. The jailer ask what must i do to be saved and Paul states

And he brought them out and said,“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You keep emphising this Messiah + work gospel. Do you have an example in the Bible where Paul when telling a person how to receive Eternal Life. he adds to faith in The Messiah, that a pseron must also believe in the work of The Messiah

 

[Clare73]

That is correct, so then not Paul, but you
are adding another object to what a person must trust in to receive Eternal Life.

Perhaps you could explain how quoting Paul himself makes me responsible for what he said.

Faith has two meanings, only the second one saves:
fides = intellectual assent
fiduces = to believe in, to trust on

Paul got his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, and believing in Jesus' atonement for one's sin is not adding to, it is simply explaining what, saving faith in Jesus really means--what is it you are trusting on; i.e., his atonement for your sin.

 

[BrotherJJ]

I'm thinking Vine doesn't disagree with Romans 6:19, 22; 2 Corinthians 7:1.

KJ shares Vine's definition

KJV Dictionary Definition: Holiness, n. from holy.

1. Applied to human beings, holiness is purity of heart or dispositions; sanctified affections; piety; moral goodness, but not perfect.

2. Sacredness; the state of any thing hallowed, or consecrated to God or to his worship; applied to churches or temples.

3. That which is separated to the service of God.

Israel was holiness unto the Lord. Jer.2.

4. A title of the pope, and formerly of the Greek emperors.

MY NOTE: Throughout the OT, Israel was anything but perfect. However, they were set apart/holy in the work they did accomplish. Is it weren't for them pointing us to the light of God. You & I wouldn't be proclaiming salvation in Christ

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANC'TIFIED, pp.

1. Made holy; consecrated; set apart for sacred services.

MY NOTE: You can't buy, work for, borrow, steal etc. holiness/righteousness they are both imputed gifts.

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but "that which is through the "faith of Christ", the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(NOTE: Not by our own righteousness obtained thru law keeping. BUT thru the faith "OF" Christ)

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith "OF" Christ)

John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
(NOTE: The Father, sanctified/set the Son apart, for a purpose/work/mission)

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(We are made holy/sanctified by FAITH that comes from Christ.)

While the Temple was operating High Priest had authority to impute/transfer the peoples sin (Lev 16:21). Christ our Great High Priest (Heb 4:14) has the power/authority to impute sin & righteousness.

Then our Great High Priest (Heb 4:14-15) imputes/transfers our sins onto Himself, then, imputes/transfers His righteousness onto us. See Lev 4:22,24,27,29,31,32,33,35 & Lev 16:21, Gal 3 & Rom 4 for additional context.

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(NOTE: Thru FAITH in Christ's sin atoning death, burial & resurrection, we become the righteousness of God thru Christ)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(MY NOTE: When we place our Faith in the Faithful, obedient sin atoning work of Christ we become saved/righteous/holy/justified/sanctified & Glory be to God satisfied!

 

[CatsRule2020]

You can't ignore the whole bible just for one verse. Apostle James asks: can the faith save him? Which means the faith cannot save. Non-believers don't do works to be saved. Because they don't want to be saved. What's difference between christians who don't act to be saved and them? None, it's same. So none of them will be saved. To be saved you must work hard for God. Probably it can happen after death too. Salvation without works isn't salvation. This is some trick, but not salvation!

John 6:28-29
King James Version

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Clare73]

KJ shares Vine's definition

KJV Dictionary Definition: Holiness, n. from holy.

Perhaps you would like to address the authoritative NT teaching I presented in post #47, above.

 

[Goodhuman]

John 6:28-29
King James Version

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If you believe him you must do all the things he said, but he also talked for the moses law, that if you have kept the 10 commandments you are saved. Also is said this: 1cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Clare73]

If you believe him you must do all the things he said, but he also talked for the moses law, that if you have kept the 10 commandments you are saved.
Also: 1cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And. . .he also said keeping his two commandments (Matthew 22:37-41) is keeping the
10 commandments, as did Paul.

 

[d taylor]

Perhaps you could explain how quoting Paul himself makes me responsible for what he said.

Faith has two meanings, only the second one saves:
fides = intellectual assent
fiduces = to believe in, to trust on

Paul got his revelation from Jesus Christ personally, and believing in Jesus' atonement for one's sin is not adding to, it is simply explaining what, saving faith in Jesus really means--what is it you are trusting on; i.e., his atonement for your sin.

All you keep doing is posting Romans 3:25 and keep saying a person must believe in Jesus and His works to be saved.

But then you also add Paul into what you believe, but never do you actually show Paul using what you believe in, in telling a person how to have Eternal Life.

I say Paul and Jesus agree perfectly, Jesus states believe in Him for Eternal Life and Paul states believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

It is a simple fact from the Bible trust in The Messiah (Jesus) gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Nothing else is needed

 

[Clare73]

All you keep doing is posting Romans 3:25 and keep saying a person must believe in Jesus and His works to be saved.

But then you also add Paul into what you believe, but never do you actually show Paul using what you believe in, in telling a person how to have Eternal Life.

I say Paul and Jesus agree perfectly, Jesus states believe in Him for Eternal Life and Paul states believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

It is a simple fact from the Bible trust in The Messiah (Jesus) gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. Nothing else is needed

Why are you arguing with authoritative NT teaching of Paul in Romans 3:25:
"atonement through faith in his blood"?

Do you not understand that we sit under the word of God written, we do not sit over it?

 

[CatsRule2020]

To simplify this thread, why doesn't each poster just post what they believe occurs the instant a person is saved.

I think a log of later sanctification beliefs are getting thrown in. (Just My Thought)

 

[Clare73]

To simplify this thread, why doesn't each poster
just post what they believe occurs the instant a person is saved.

I think a log of later sanctification beliefs are getting thrown in. (Just My Thought)

Holy Spirit --> rebirth --> faith --> salvation/justification (apart from works) --> obedience

 

[Clare73]

You can't ignore the whole bible just for one verse. Apostle James asks: can the faith save him? Which means the faith cannot save. Non-believers don't do works to be saved. Because they don't want to be saved. What's difference between christians who don't act to be saved and them? None, it's same. So none of them will be saved. To be saved you must work hard for God. Probably it can happen after death too. Salvation without works isn't salvation. This is some trick, but not salvation!

You don't ignore anything for anything. . .you understand all in the light of all.