"Belief" and Conjecture.

[ScottA]

Much of the debate that goes on here - which gives the impression that we Christians all believe something different - seems to come from a misunderstanding of just what "belief" is: Believing is not "knowing."

Sorry folks, but believing does not qualify anyone to speak with authority on matters of doctrine and interpretation of scripture. That is not to say that believers need someone more versed (pun intended) to explain...but...we ALL need a Helper - that is how this is all supposed to work: We are suppose to hear the good news of Christ, come to a point of "belief", then await the Holy Spirit (the Helper) to lead us into all truth.

So, then, if two whom have the Holy Spirit come to a disagreement - it is not the Holy Spirit speaking...and it should be. We are not to speak from our own mind and thinking. Remember "thinking" is not "knowing." Thinking leads to conjecture, and conjecture leads to unnecessary arguments. Christ did it right, passing authority off to the Father. Jesus told us that we would not speak, but the Holy Spirit would actually do the speaking. And Paul preached that we should be of one mind. We need to work on this - we're not doing very well at all.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. (go figure).

 

[Greg J.]

"Knowing" is just a form of believing.

Even quoting the rock solid truth (Scripture) requires human deduction and some form of belief.

So, then, if two whom have the Holy Spirit come to a disagreement - it is not the Holy Spirit speaking

Unless one of them is speaking by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

"Knowing" is just a form of believing.

No, "knowing" is confirmed - "belief" is unconfirmed.

Even quoting the rock solid truth (Scripture) requires human deduction and some form of belief.

No, the scriptures must be discerned spiritually. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Human deduction is little more than folly. Genesis 6:5

 

[Greg J.]

How do you know?

 

[ScottA]

How do you know?

There are many ways to receive confirmation from God: from His word (which must collectively agree with all scripture), and many ways via the Holy Spirit, whom speaks to a person (personally) through life in ways that cannot be denied, much like someone telling you something that they could not possibly know without some connection to you.

Personally, when I was at the end of myself, after years of downward spiral, I cried out to God - having no prior knowledge of Him - and He answered. You could call it an out of body or religious experience, but I was quickly caught up into the clouds above the earth, shown my worth and purpose in life, and filled with the Holy Spirit (whom leads us unto all truth). Shortly thereafter, He lead me to find His word in a place where I could do little more that read, and I read the bible cover to cover like a novel, barely stopping for food or sleep.

But that's just me. When we are ready, God meets us where we are - it's personal. But it all must agree with Him, or it may all be any manner of demons...and His word is the only record and means of confirming His spiritual truth.

 

[Greg J.]

I began talking to God - having no prior knowledge of Him - and He answered. You could call it an out of body or religious experience, but I was quickly caught up into the clouds above the earth, shown my worth and purpose in life, and filled with the Holy Spirit (whom leads us unto all truth).

This seems to be part of your confidence that you know. Can you confirm this to me or are you asking me to believe you?

(Edited)

 

[ScottA]

Can you confirm this to me or are you asking me to believe you?

A man can scarcely confirm himself to another - how then shall he confirm God or God's truth? He cannot - but God Himself can...and the only means, is via His word, or His Holy Spirit. So, then, the matter is personal, between us and God.

 

[Greg J.]

A man can scarcely confirm himself to another - how then shall he confirm God or God's truth? He cannot - but God Himself can...and the only means, is via His word, or His Holy Spirit. So, then, the matter is personal, between us and God.

You are saying that you cannot confirm your words to me. Furthermore you are saying I should wait for a personal confirmation from God about your words before I believe you (since you cannot confirm your words to me).

We are suppose to hear the good news of Christ, come to a point of "belief", then await the Holy Spirit (the Helper) to lead us into all truth.

I might be waiting a long time, since what you have said contradicts Scripture.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. (John 16:13, 1984 NIV)

The Holy Spirit is already guiding me into all truth. I don't need to "await" on him. Also, I am not familiar with a command to "come to a point of 'belief'." Rather belief is a gift from God.

Sorry folks, but believing does not qualify anyone to speak with authority on matters of doctrine and interpretation of scripture.

If you claim your words are authoritative, then you are invalidating your claim.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (John 5:31, 1984 NIV)

If you don't claim your words are authoritative, then what makes you different from anyone else?

God has commanded us to learn from one another as well as exercise wisdom and discernment. If God had planned for the Holy Spirit to confirm or not confirm everything to us, we wouldn't need to do any of those. He is not trying to make us into his slaves (echoing only what we hear from him), but children who live in ways pleasing to God through our knowledge, wisdom, faith, and love. Our growing unity with the Holy Spirit makes us more like God (free) not into his robots.

Sometimes people speak by the Holy Spirit and sometimes not. Either way all we can do is just handle it the best we can—imperfectly, without knowing if anyone is exactly right or not. Even though Scripture was without error when it was written down, the Truth has to be processed by our fallen minds, through the colored glasses we wear due to our life experiences.

 

[Hoghead1]

No, "knowing" is confirmed - "belief" is unconfirmed.
No, the scriptures must be discerned spiritually. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Human deduction is little more than folly. Genesis 6:5

Scriotrue does not say that logic is folly. What do you think God gave us reason for?

 

[ScottA]

You are saying that you cannot confirm your words to me. Furthermore you are saying I should wait for a personal confirmation from God about your words before I believe you (since you cannot confirm your words to me).

Yes. Why are you repeating back to me what I said?

I might be waiting a long time, since what you have said contradicts Scripture.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. (John 16:13, 1984 NIV)

The Holy Spirit is already guiding me into all truth. I don't need to "await" on him. Also, I am not familiar with a command to "come to a point of 'belief'." Rather belief is a gift from God.

If the Holy Spirit were guiding you, you would have recognized that I first quoted the very same verse you now quote to me, and we would be in agreement.

I did not say belief was a commandment, but rather gave a simple outline of the process of coming to the truth.

If you claim your words are authoritative, then you are invalidating your claim.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (John 5:31, 1984 NIV)

If you don't claim your words are authoritative, then what makes you different from anyone else?

I have not spoken of myself, nor is it I who has spoken.

God has commanded us to learn from one another as well as exercise wisdom and discernment. If God had planned for the Holy Spirit to confirm or not confirm everything to us, we wouldn't need to do any of those. He is not trying to make us into his slaves (echoing only what we hear from him), but children who live in ways pleasing to God through our knowledge, wisdom, faith, and love. Our growing unity with the Holy Spirit makes us more like God (free) not into his robots.

Sometimes people speak by the Holy Spirit and sometimes not. Either way all we can do is just handle it the best we can—imperfectly, without knowing if anyone is exactly right or not. Even though Scripture was without error when it was written down, the Truth has to be processed by our fallen minds, through the colored glasses we wear due to our life experiences.

You are using men's (the world's) logic. There is purpose in everything under heaven. But learning, wisdom, and discernment, are not for the same purpose as the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit - just the opposite.

You make too big a thing of individuality - the plan of God is rather the harmony of many members of One body. When the Head moves, we follow. This is not robotics, but Oneness.

The purpose of our seeing through the glass dimly, is the perfect timing of His revelation of Jesus Christ - and to put off our full knowledge, so that every generation can be called unto repentance, until the fullness of these times of the gentiles has come.

 

[ScottA]

Scriotrue does not say that logic is folly. What do you think God gave us reason for?

"Human deduction" and "logic" are different. It is human deduction that is folly and prone to evil: "That which is born of the flesh, is flesh." John 3:6.

Logic on the other hand, is only good so long as it proceeds along the correct path. Men's logic often fails to do so, but is prone to the ways of the world - which is an [intentional] snare.

"Reason", works in both realms of good, as well as, evil. It is a disclaimer of sorts, that none should blame God for what they themselves have come to believe.