Being Christian and Collecting Gay Anime Figures

MasterYourLife

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By that logic, you can't bring mixed fabrics, shellfish and the like, they're ALL called abominations, which doesn't entail moral antipathy, just ritual uncleanness and the like. If you're going to be consistent, then apply the whole book or admit you're cherry picking to gripe about non hetero people, as if they do anything that's wrong in itself because you think procreative sex is the only proper form.

Pretty sure the verse you're quoting is not the same as having utter inhospitality because someone is a nonbeliever, but letting them worship as such in your house.

Sin less, but not be sinless, so maybe get off your high horse and quit condescending to others
Those laws were for the Jews under an old covenant which has passed.

"Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds." 2 John 1:9

No one is claiming to be sinless. However, you are claiming there is a justifiable sense in sinning more because we already sinned.
 
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muichimotsu

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Those laws were for the Jews under an old covenant which has passed.

"Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you but does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home or even greet him. Whoever greets such a person shares in his evil deeds." 2 John 1:9

No one is claiming to be sinless. However, you are claiming there is a justifiable sense in sinning more because we already sinned.

Yeah, the ad hoc rationalization is old hat, you can always invoke the covenant defense to basically say that some things still apply, even though Jesus didn't say he was changing the law itself, only "fulfillfing" it. But that still gets into using God itself as a scapegoat to solve problems God initiated by knowingly creating flawed beings.

Also the Jews would partly disagree with you on that, not sure how you're going to argue how they're wrong just because they don't agree with your ilk. Not all Jews, sure, but those Orthodox ones probably still maintain the kosher aspects. And that just leads into the other issue of Christians being "so different" because they don't have "works based" theology, even though your holy text doesn't have that consistent message, it argues that good works are reflective of grace, not something wholly unnecessary, so the phrasing doesn't work anyway, esp. if it isn't necessarily the case that Jews and Muslims say that the works themselves get them into heaven, but reflect their faith in God, the only difference being the notion of some "grace" that basically negates your freewill

Again, you can quote it, doesn't mean your interpretation is strictly accurate or even as intended by the writers. And even if it was, that doesn't make it more defensible, because you're just assuming everyone else will just go along because of how "righteous" you seem to follow your god's law.

No, I'm not saying that, because I don't believe in sin, I'm claiming the notion that "bringing sin into your house" will somehow be a stumbling block is fallacious logic of conflating someone's state with you being influenced. If you're going to be a moralizing zealot, at least be consistent instead of selectively interpreting things so you don't appear utterly insane and on the fringe of society
 
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muichimotsu

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I also think it bears noting that an anime isn't really "gay" in that sense unless that's really the whole focus, which there are anime like that, but I don't think Dramatical Murder necessarily falls under that anymore than other series that have gay characters must be considered that way.

BL is ambiguous like that at times, I'll admit, but that's a whole other topic of whether it's even a bad thing in the first place and I'm not going there, because forum rules or whatnot.
 
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muichimotsu

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Why do non-Christians always use the strawmen of shellfish? I hear it even on Reddit.

It's not a strawman (that would be claiming that Christians all believe it or that it's seen as essential, obviously that's not the case), the point is that it's in your bible, you cherrypick out those things by invoking some new covenant instead of just...not having it in the bible in the first place. You've got SO much fat you could trim in terms of making your message as concise as possible and not be muddled by the antiquated Jewish covenant, which can be referenced without having to give it the authoritative status that someone could possibly interpret as still applying (because the Bible is supposedly holistic in some respects and references back to things, but it's a slog to get through with how much is in it to begin with).

Who even cares about the lineage most of the time in the bible or the rules that Christians aren't beholden to? Why even bring them up? And for that matter, there are things that are invoked as bad and then the "punishments" accorded to them are swept under the rug for similar reasons. Couldn't it be presented in a way that isn't needlessly confusing and requiring so many more extraneous aspects for the understanding?

If Christianity is meant to be this simple faith and worldview, then the amount of scholarship on it seems to suggest quite the opposite in having to constantly qualify and make rationalizations for various things by invoking some special circumstance or a metaphorical interpretation, etc.
 
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MasterYourLife

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Yeah, the ad hoc rationalization is old hat, you can always invoke the covenant defense to basically say that some things still apply, even though Jesus didn't say he was changing the law itself, only "fulfillfing" it. But that still gets into using God itself as a scapegoat to solve problems God initiated by knowingly creating flawed beings.

Again, you can quote it, doesn't mean your interpretation is strictly accurate or even as intended by the writers. And even if it was, that doesn't make it more defensible, because you're just assuming everyone else will just go along because of how "righteous" you seem to follow your god's law.

No, I'm not saying that, because I don't believe in sin, I'm claiming the notion that "bringing sin into your house" will somehow be a stumbling block is fallacious logic of conflating someone's state with you being influenced. If you're going to be a moralizing zealot, at least be consistent instead of selectively interpreting things so you don't appear utterly insane and on the fringe of society
I take it you've never read the Bible, or at least all of it.
But you're going to lecture Christians here on what they believe?
I see you're not here to learn, but to teach what you don't understand.

Being so, if you really care for truth, I encourage you to read and learn it for yourself. Debating a side you don't understand will only make your heart coarse towards God.
Are you here to single handedly prove wrong, hundreds of millions of Christians over 2,000 years? We were all wrong this entire time, but now we see because you have proved our faults?

You won't accept our answers. If you're seeking truth, then seek it with an open heart. Otherwise leave us alone and don't create strife.
Your faulty arguments here won't sway any persons mind or belief.
 
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devin553344

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:argh:

The anime's title is Dramatical Murder, it's not about murder, far as I can tell, that's more flair. It's sci fi with some mystery elements. And sure, there are implied gay relationships, same as in other stuff in that vein, it's not telling you to be gay or that you should approve of it by necessity. Heck, Japan is further behind in terms of really giving fair treatment to LGBTQ than America is, so you can just regard this as a subculture and not reflective of Japan's political or even social norms.

The figure is just a character, it's not a murder, because I don't think 99.9% of anime/manga/etc figures are even remotely about someone being dead.

If you're going to be superstitious, at least investigate a bit further than one word you can pounce on to warn about "evil" having some influence by association.

By that logic, me possessing little Hotei sculptures or Buddhist prayer beads in my parents' house should be bringing EVIL into our house, but I'm pretty sure we're okay, nothing really negative happening.

So I'm still unclear what "murder" is doing in the title?
 
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Not David

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It's not a strawman (that would be claiming that Christians all believe it or that it's seen as essential, obviously that's not the case), the point is that it's in your bible, you cherrypick out those things by invoking some new covenant instead of just...not having it in the bible in the first place. You've got SO much fat you could trim in terms of making your message as concise as possible and not be muddled by the antiquated Jewish covenant, which can be referenced without having to give it the authoritative status that someone could possibly interpret as still applying (because the Bible is supposedly holistic in some respects and references back to things, but it's a slog to get through with how much is in it to begin with).

Who even cares about the lineage most of the time in the bible or the rules that Christians aren't beholden to? Why even bring them up? And for that matter, there are things that are invoked as bad and then the "punishments" accorded to them are swept under the rug for similar reasons. Couldn't it be presented in a way that isn't needlessly confusing and requiring so many more extraneous aspects for the understanding?

If Christianity is meant to be this simple faith and worldview, then the amount of scholarship on it seems to suggest quite the opposite in having to constantly qualify and make rationalizations for various things by invoking some special circumstance or a metaphorical interpretation, etc.
I am still learning but in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they believe that the Old Testament points to Christ and some rules might exist nowadays in the Spirit of those laws. For example, they fast from meat, fish, and other animal products twice a week.
 
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muichimotsu

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I am still learning but in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they believe that the Old Testament points to Christ and some rules might exist nowadays in the Spirit of those laws. For example, they fast from meat, fish, and other animal products twice a week.

That's actually a general Christian perspective, it's why the OT is considered valuable at all is the metaphorical interpretations they can take to point to their messiah (which is totally different from the Jewish or Muslim ones that also exist). Abraham and Isaac's whole thing, for instance, is seen as pointing to the crucifixion of Jesus, there's plenty of examples to find

But yeah, traditions will vary on particular practices like fasting and such. Lent is generally a common thing between most, if not all, Christian traditions, but that's like saying the baptism thing is considered essential versus just a common aspect that can vary in the importance ascribed to variations (infant baptism, for example)
 
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muichimotsu

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So I'm still unclear what "murder" is doing in the title?
I'll admit I don't know either, but Japanese titles for material doesn't always necessarily conform to anything in the series proper: Bleach for instance doesn't really have that used anywhere in the series itself. If you're fixated on the title, that's still missing the point, because titles don't usually have any big significance, at best some metaphor, like Black Clover's symbolism with Asta's black anti magic swords and being in the Clover kingdom.
 
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devin553344

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I'll admit I don't know either, but Japanese titles for material doesn't always necessarily conform to anything in the series proper: Bleach for instance doesn't really have that used anywhere in the series itself. If you're fixated on the title, that's still missing the point, because titles don't usually have any big significance, at best some metaphor, like Black Clover's symbolism with Asta's black anti magic swords and being in the Clover kingdom.

LOL, I'm not fixated, I was trying to become enlightened as to what the title was referring to.
 
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devin553344

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Strange how humans suffer from apophenia, because that's why you would fallaciously conclude that removing that thing somehow causes this bad thing to stop rather than it merely being correlative at most.

What you call apophenia, I call inviting that which you worship. For instance if you worship the devil he will visit you. And perhaps being a Buddhist you will be visited by the serpent spirit? We Christians want to be visited by Jesus.

If you worship the devil he may visit you. By displaying things that are evil, you are in fact providing tokens of worship. It's standard religious practice I think really.
 
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muichimotsu

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LOL, I'm not fixated, I was trying to become enlightened as to what the title was referring to.
You're trying to derive meaning of something from the title, which is rarely the case with any series: even Naruto isn't just about Naruto, for instance, it's about ninja and bonds of friendship and things like that, that's in the content of the story
 
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muichimotsu

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What you call apophenia, I call inviting that which you worship. For instance if you worship the devil he will visit you. And perhaps being a Buddhist you will be visited by the serpent spirit? We Christians want to be visited by Jesus.

If you worship the devil he may visit you. By displaying things that are evil, you are in fact providing tokens of worship. It's standard religious practice I think really.

I don't worship anything, you don't get to assume what I worship by your own presumptions, because that's not how a rational discussion works. Define worship and then we can go from there, not leaping in your logic to "everyone worships, thus everyone worships something"

It's not about me being visited by anything supernatural, Buddhists don't necessarily believe that in every manifestation and you can just as easily call me atheist with Buddhist influences, not Buddhist as you mistakenly seem to think merely because of associations with the label

No, and there's a few problems with that logic 1) I'm not displaying them, they're in a drawer, I said that in a separate post, they're not sitting on my desk where someone can see them (not that I'm ashamed, let's quash that assumption) and 2) even if I was displaying them, that in no way follows to a religious practice, even if it can be, that's fallacy of association. Displaying something doesn't entail a religious aspect to it, even if the image or such is associated to a religion by default, that's not how intentionality works
 
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devin553344

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I don't worship anything, you don't get to assume what I worship by your own presumptions, because that's not how a rational discussion works. Define worship and then we can go from there, not leaping in your logic to "everyone worships, thus everyone worships something"

It's not about me being visited by anything supernatural, Buddhists don't necessarily believe that in every manifestation and you can just as easily call me atheist with Buddhist influences, not Buddhist as you mistakenly seem to think merely because of associations with the label

No, and there's a few problems with that logic 1) I'm not displaying them, they're in a drawer, I said that in a separate post, they're not sitting on my desk where someone can see them (not that I'm ashamed, let's quash that assumption) and 2) even if I was displaying them, that in no way follows to a religious practice, even if it can be, that's fallacy of association. Displaying something doesn't entail a religious aspect to it, even if the image or such is associated to a religion by default, that's not how intentionality works

Well that's where your beliefs differ from Christianity.
 
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muichimotsu

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And Christianity's beliefs are reflective of reality how, beyond your conviction that they are the case? Invoking the bible doesn't count, that's circular logic, independent verification is necessary in regards to some unique notion that cannot be found otherwise and is not contested in terms of a logical chain where you're begging the question or otherwise inferring something fallaciously.

I'm aware this is a Christian majority forum and I honestly don't engage THAT much because of how there's a general bias and problematic maintenance of the forums I've been on in the past to view things with a fairly narrow lens in ANY sort of questioning of the orthodoxy invoked.

A priori assumptions are not so merely because you can point to a group that holds them, even if they posit them with strength and sincerity. When you posit your god, that's one of countless others that come into play, particularly notions of religiosity that claim it's inherent to humanity or other nonsensical theological drivel I've encountered over a decade and a half of searching in my life. If you're just going to say that it's true and support it with only that which aligns with that belief, it smacks much more of confirmation bias and significant restrictions in critical thinking to not even countenance that you could be wrong.

And before you counter that I'm so certain: that's not how a discussion works, you don't declare it as fact, you speculate provisionally as I've done. I'm willing to be shown the flaws, it's more that the attempts to do so have failed in logic through one method or another. By all means, try, if it's that important: or pray that God will help me, your choice
 
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muichimotsu

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I take it you've never read the Bible, or at least all of it.
But you're going to lecture Christians here on what they believe?
I see you're not here to learn, but to teach what you don't understand.

Being so, if you really care for truth, I encourage you to read and learn it for yourself. Debating a side you don't understand will only make your heart coarse towards God.
Are you here to single handedly prove wrong, hundreds of millions of Christians over 2,000 years? We were all wrong this entire time, but now we see because you have proved our faults?

You won't accept our answers. If you're seeking truth, then seek it with an open heart. Otherwise leave us alone and don't create strife.
Your faulty arguments here won't sway any persons mind or belief.

I'm pointing out how you have to constantly cherry pick and goalpost shift to even have a shred of sense in your incoherent viewpoint and defend against criticisms by appealing to special revelation or inspiration.

I'm not teaching anything, never claimed to be some arbiter of absolute truth, that's for your ilk who like to think they know how everyone else ought to behave because of what their holy book prescribes.

Wow, you're really reaching in associating any such hyperbolic notion to what I'm doing. Christianity doesn't prove anything, it merely defends its convictions based on fallacious logic and expects people to just accept that and be "tolerant" because of societal norms rather than acknowledging that their beliefs aren't sacrosanct and criticism of them is part of civil and rational society.

You have no idea what you're talking about, first off, as if you can assess any amount of knowledge I have or don't in regards to the bible, but I seriously doubt you have some perfect knowledge, so ultimately it's not about something universal, because not everyone is Christian, so they're not going to take your text as authoritative, not to mention even amongst your own group, you'll have such schisms it makes politics look positively simple by comparison.

Open heart is not being gullible and taking claims based on appeals to authority or divine mandate as the justification for human existence. You're conflating skepticism with some notion of "hard heartedness" but that's really just to skew the discussion in your favor by framing it as if you're totally "open minded", but you're pretty clearly entrenched in your insistence on being right and having some conclusive answer rather than just admitting you don't know. Instead, there's very likely appeals to some divine mystery, some plan you don't understand, but that you'll still obey, the slavish mentality that I find utterly reprehensible as anything "virtuous"

I wouldn't make claims for other people, you can only speak for yourself in being an intransigent zealot that won't be swayed rather than whether anyone else agrees with your subjective interpretation of my arguments as supposedly faulty.
 
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