Behold, I come as a thief!

[sdowney717]

Hi sdowney,

Thought you may be interested to know that the actual word in Jude is `holy ones,` and that can be saints or angels. Thus we need more of scripture to find out which. We read that the Lord Himself only said that the angels come with Him, NOT the Body of Christ. (Matt. 25: 31 and many others)

regards, Marilyn.

When He returns, and He returns only a second time, He is bringing the dead in Christ with Him as well as the angels of God.
All of heaven, those in heaven, participate in the second coming of Christ together with the Lord.

 

[Davy]

Indeed.

Can we come to know the day and the hour?

We all know the quote in Matthew 24:36, that “no man knows the day or the hour” and that God “comes like a thief in the night”, but Revelation 3:3 tells us that only those who are not awake do not know the hour at which God comes...

In light of this, and reading the fuller quote from 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, is it actually possible to know the hour?

Revelation 3:3 implies that it is indeed possible to know the hour.

As the time gets closer, we should be able to recognize the event of Christ's return even 3.5 days prior. When God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem and left laying the street for 3.5 days (all nations will see it), and then they rise, that is definitely the time to expect our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet to gather those of us still alive on earth.

But today, we can't know when that is, so what our Lord Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, that still applies. We don't know the date when the two witnesses are killed.

 

[FredVB]

When He returns, and He returns only a second time, He is bringing the dead in Christ with Him as well as the angels of God.
All of heaven, those in heaven, participate in the second coming of Christ together with the Lord.

Why is that, other than those accompaning Christ in that return wear white robes, as an army with him? Why would Christ need those he redeemed to be happy with him in heaven forever to fight as an army with him? And what will qualify those of us who are redeemed in him, for that?

As the time gets closer, we should be able to recognize the event of Christ's return even 3.5 days prior. When God's two witnesses are killed in Jerusalem and left laying the street for 3.5 days (all nations will see it), and then they rise, that is definitely the time to expect our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet to gather those of us still alive on earth.
But today, we can't know when that is, so what our Lord Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, that still applies. We don't know the date when the two witnesses are killed.

The way I see I can read it, there can be meaning understood of three and a half years before that time depicted of the two witnesses being killed, and three and a half years after that time.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 15:16

It is shown 2 times in Revelation, 1 of those to the Messenger of the Sardis Church.......

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-3-the-last-3-churches.8072344/#post-72938448

Revelation 3:3
Be remember then! how thou hast received and hear and be keeping! and repent! if then thou should not be watching,
I shall be arriving upon thee as a thief, and thou shall not be knowing which hour I shall be arriving upon thee.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2812&t=NKJV

Used 1 other time in Revelation

Revelation 16:15
Behold! I do come as a thief;
happy [is] he who is watching and keeping his garments, that he may not be walking naked and they may seeing his indecency,’

From what I read of Josephus, the Roman army arrived at Jerusalem "like a thief in the night"

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity.............................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover..............
The City was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance; and according to Josephus this event took place suddenly;...................

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

...............Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive................

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Amen, I fully expect Jesus to come back in the air at any moment. I know He will not come to earth the first time, as we children are to meet Him in the air. "Hello my name is Scotty and I am a Pretribber" :]

Pre-trib eh?

 

[Southernscotty]

Pre-trib eh?

Yepper, Guilty as charged :] and I do believe we the church will be "beamed" up to meet Him in the air

 

[Davy]

The way I see I can read it, there can be meaning understood of three and a half years before that time depicted of the two witnesses being killed, and three and a half years after that time.

I don't apply the year-for-a-day idea outside of the Scripture where it was given. Doing that is confusion. Thus the three and a half days in Rev.11 means literally three and one-half days, not years.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't apply the year-for-a-day idea outside of the Scripture where it was given. Doing that is confusion.
Thus the three and a half days in Rev.11 means literally three and one-half days, not years.

I agree.
Lazarus was dead for more than 3 days, similar to the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11.
Oh, the wonder of His Word!

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/lazarus-and-2-witnesses-of-reve-11-similarity.7461118/
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

Not 3 and half years, but 3 and half days [the 1st "rapture"]

John 11:
39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone.
Martha is saying to Him, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Not 3 and a half yrs but 3 and half days

Revelation 11
9 And are observing out of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations the body/*s of them three and half days and the bodies of them not they suffer to be placed into tomb.
11 And after the three and half days a breath of life out of the God entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....

 

[brinny]

i agree with Scotty on this one.

Sorta'

I am not real cogent on a timeline though....

i'm not so sure we're gonna be meeting Jesus in the air before the tribulation, though.

 

[brinny]

....and i DO believe that Jesus will surely come as a "thief in the night", when we least expect it.

 

[BABerean2]

I don't apply the year-for-a-day idea outside of the Scripture where it was given. Doing that is confusion. Thus the three and a half days in Rev.11 means literally three and one-half days, not years.

Are the two witnesses "literally" made of wood and metal?

Or do we believe the words of Christ in Revelation 1:20 where He says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches?

Do we believe Paul in Romans chapter 11 where he uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same Olive Tree?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

.

 

[Davy]

Are the two witnesses "literally" made of wood and metal?

Or do we believe the words of Christ in Revelation 1:20 where He says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches?

Do we believe Paul in Romans chapter 11 where he uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of faithful Israelites and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same Olive Tree?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

.

The Rev.11:4 verse has a conjunction ("and") between "the two olive trees" and "the two candlesticks". I interpret those Rev.11 verses about the two witnesses being two literal witnesses God will send to Jerusalem, and the "two candlesticks" as the two Churches Jesus had no problem with as symbolic of His elect sealed for the tribulation.

 

[BABerean2]

The Rev.11:4 verse has a conjunction ("and") between "the two olive trees" and "the two candlesticks". I interpret those Rev.11 verses about the two witnesses being two literal witnesses God will send to Jerusalem, and the "two candlesticks" as the two Churches Jesus had no problem with as symbolic of His elect sealed for the tribulation.

So it is literal where you need it to be literal and symbolic otherwise, as long as it does not interfere with your doctrine?

.

 

[Davy]

So it is literal where you need it to be literal and symbolic otherwise, as long as it does not interfere with your doctrine?

.

No, not at all. For even you recognized the candlestick symbol for the Churches that Jesus gave in Revelation 1. Are you now denying that symbol?

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

Thus "two candlesticks" of Rev.11 = two of the seven Churches in Asia. (Which two Churches did Jesus have no problem with?)

The "two witnesses" that will be killed in Jerusalem are two literal people, their bodies left laying in the plaza in Jerusalem for the whole world to see. That is a blueprint pattern from the time of Moses and Aaron during God's plagues upon Egypt.

Rev 11:6
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
KJV


If you think all that is metaphorical and not literal, then I can grasp how you might also struggle with the concept of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 being literal, because as a literal event to occur on earth is how Rev.20 is written.

 

[BABerean2]

No, not at all. For even you recognized the candlestick symbol for the Churches that Jesus gave in Revelation 1. Are you now denying that symbol?

No.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols, not given in chronological order.

Just as the 1,000 years of Revelation chapter 20 is symbolic of the Church Age.

The Second Coming of Christ is found...

at the end of chapter 6, and the end of chapter 11, and the harvest of chapter 14, and when He comes as a thief in chapter 16, and in chapter 19, and at the end of chapter 20.

.

 

[Davy]

No.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols, not given in chronological order.

Just as the 1,000 years of Revelation chapter 20 is symbolic of the Church Age.

The Second Coming of Christ is found...

at the end of chapter 6, and the end of chapter 11, and the harvest of chapter 14, and when He comes as a thief in chapter 16, and in chapter 19, and at the end of chapter 20.

.

I do not believe any such idea that Christ's "thousand years" reign over the nations is symbolic. It will happen literally at His return, as written in many OT and NT Scriptures. To think that our Lord Jesus is taking His reign over the nations now is delusion, because we are nearing the time of "great tribulation" upon the Church that He, His Apostles, and the Church fathers warned us of, and that involves the "abomination of desolation" being setup in Jerusalem that He quoted from the Book of Daniel. That abomination involves an idol placed inside a standing Jewish temple, as Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. was the blueprint for it. And I have noticed today more Churches deceived in that, as they are being wrongly taught that in the 3rd temple in Jerusalem at the end of this world will be the one where Moses and Elijah will lead many to Christ. The 3rd temple in Jerusalem will be the temple of Rev.11:1-2 when the Gentiles will tread the city for 42 months, same timing the "dragon" of Rev.13 is to reign over the nations. That dragon represents the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.

 

[BABerean2]

I do not believe any such idea that Christ's "thousand years" reign over the nations is symbolic. It will happen literally at His return, as written in many OT and NT Scriptures. To think that our Lord Jesus is taking His reign over the nations now is delusion, because we are nearing the time of "great tribulation" upon the Church that He, His Apostles, and the Church fathers warned us of, and that involves the "abomination of desolation" being setup in Jerusalem that He quoted from the Book of Daniel. That abomination involves an idol placed inside a standing Jewish temple, as Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. was the blueprint for it. And I have noticed today more Churches deceived in that, as they are being wrongly taught that in the 3rd temple in Jerusalem at the end of this world will be the one where Moses and Elijah will lead many to Christ. The 3rd temple in Jerusalem will be the temple of Rev.11:1-2 when the Gentiles will tread the city for 42 months, same timing the "dragon" of Rev.13 is to reign over the nations. That dragon represents the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.

I am well aware of what you believe and fully understand the scripture which much be ignored to make it work.

You have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46.
This is confirmed by 2 Timothy 4:1.

You have to ignore the fact that the Second Coming is found in both Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19 to make your chronology work.

You have to ignore Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

You have to ignore the fact that the location of the temple in Revelation 11 is found to be in heaven, at the end of the chapter.

You also have to ignore John 10:22, and the fact that Luke 21:20-21, and Matthew 24:15-16 are parallel accounts.

Ignore all of the above and maybe you can make your doctrine work.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

....and i DO believe that Jesus will surely come as a "thief in the night", when we least expect it.

Gotta be ready.......

Luke 12:
19 and I will say to my soul, 'Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years, be resting, eat, drink, be merry'.
20 ‘And God said to him, "thou fool!
this night thy soul they shall require from thee, and what things thou didst prepare — to whom shall they be"?

 

[brinny]

Gotta be ready.......

Luke 12:
19 and I will say to my soul, 'Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years, be resting, eat, drink, be merry'.
20 ‘And God said to him, "thou fool!
this night thy soul they shall require from thee, and what things thou didst prepare — to whom shall they be"?

i soooooooooo agree!

Amen.

 

[Davy]

I am well aware of what you believe and fully understand the scripture which much be ignored to make it work.

You would have to be able to back that statement up, and I know you cannot. It's because more than likely you are actually the one guilty of what you accuse me of. We shall see with your following interpretation of your quoted Scripture.

You have to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46.
This is confirmed by 2 Timothy 4:1.

John 5:28-29 reveals the "resurrection of damnation" occurs on the same day of the resurrection when Jesus returns. That is when the rewards for His servants are passed out, and the wicked dead are raised per John 5 and judged to the "resurrection of damnation". This is confirmed by Jesus in Matt.25 about His separating His sheep from the goats. The goats represent the wicked, not the saints. And just because Matt.25 does not specifically describe the 1,000 years does not mean it don't exist, as it is referenced in many other Scriptures, by Apostle Paul especially in 1 Cor.15:23-28.

POST 2ND COMING OF JESUS:
Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

That's the remnant of the wicked that come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world. There they are, still existing, after Christ's return and during His literal reign from Jerusalem.

Again, 2 Timothy 4:1 is about BOTH resurrections happening on the day of Jesus' return. That aligns with what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

So what you're actually doing with quoting 2 Tim.4:1, is 'proving' both resurrection 'types' on the day of Jesus' coming.

You have to ignore the fact that the Second Coming is found in both Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19 to make your chronology work.

That's a wild statement, because I've never done either of those you accuse me of.

The Rev.16:15 verse is Jesus still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". And the then the next verse is about the battle of Armageddon with the 7th Vial, which happens on the day of His coming. Rev.19:11 forward is another view of Jesus coming on a white horse. It doesn't give a sign like a trumpet, or seal, or vial, but enough description of events to know it also is the last day of this world, the day of His 2nd coming.

So obviously, I have not denied those two Scriptures pointing to Jesus' 2nd coming as you bear false witness against me saying I do. You are either assuming I belong to a certain theological school of thought when I don't, or you simply are now telling lies. I'll let other readers decide that.

You have to ignore Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

When have I ever denied that? You have NO evidence of any such thing against me, you white-washed wall!

What do you think Jesus linked to in Rev.16:15 with saying He comes "as a thief"? He linked to the "day of the Lord" Paul and Peter taught. What did Peter in 2 Pet.3:10 say happens on the "day of the Lord"? God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the earth! That's what 2 Thess.1 "in flaming fire" links to. Heck, even the hot fiery furnace of Daniel 3 with Jesus appearing in the furnace with them is a pointer to the future day of Christ's coming with the event of God's consuming fire!

You have to ignore the fact that the location of the temple in Revelation 11 is found to be in heaven, at the end of the chapter.

So the Gentiles that tread the city in that Rev.11:1-2 Scripture for 42 months do that in Heaven?@!?? You are confused, terribly.

Per Rev.13, the "dragon" reigns over all nations and peoples during that same 42 months the Gentiles tread the city for 42 months. I'll be you didn't know that prophecy given in Revelation in 'months' is for the wicked, and prophecy given in 'days' is for God's people. God's children are children of the day, of the light (1 Thess.5). If that isn't enough, all one need do is realize God's two witnesses are there in Jerusalem where that Rev.11:1-2 temple is, and the beast ascends from the bottomless pit to that area to kill them! And all that's happening in Heaven?!#%$!?? Crazy!

You also have to ignore John 10:22, and the fact that Luke 21:20-21, and Matthew 24:15-16 are parallel accounts.

....
.

The feast of dedication is not observed by Gentile Christians. That's a Jewish feast.

Ignore all of the above and maybe you can make your doctrine work.

No, I'll just ignore you, because you're just making up false accusations and show you're not really interested in what God's Word really says.