Beginning of the Salvation journey , phase 1 of 5

[watchman 2]

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[rob_aston]

Salvation process down into 5 main phases

this is an intelligent think, top marks

 

[watchman 2]

I will share my understanding of the Salvation journey so it will be specifically spelled out for those you who sincerely care. I have broken the Salvation process down into 5 main phases or things that must happen through out our journey.

phase 1

1) The world or the field.

a) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
b) The start of the drawing process begins. Jn 6:44
c) People are called out from this field.
d) People are not called out from this field.
e) We are called out to be saints. (perfected) Rom. 1:7
f) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
g) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet. Rom. 8:9
h) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God at this point. (He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9

Any problems with the first part ? I know there isn't phases to the process , but i had to highlight each happening that way because there is a necessary action that needs to be taken by us to move beyond the experienced state of being we are at.

 

[watchman 2]

I will share my understanding of the Salvation journey so it will be specifically spelled out for those you who sincerely care. I have broken the Salvation process down into 5 main phases or things that must happen through out our journey.

phase 1

1) The world or the field.

a) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
b) The start of the drawing process begins. Jn 6:44
c) People are called out from this field.
d) People are not called out from this field.
e) We are called out to be saints. (perfected) Rom. 1:7
f) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
g) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet. Rom. 8:9
h) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God at this point. (He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9

This is the understanding i've been presenting on the other thread. I was only able to get one person to agree with it , barely. I didn't want to share the rest of the understandings (phases 2 through 5) without this first being understood and accepted.

Are there any questions or disagreements with this first part of the Salvation journey or process ?

 

[watchman 2]

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[watchman 2]

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[watchman 2]

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[EmSw]

phase 1

1) The world or the field.

a) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
b) The start of the drawing process begins. Jn 6:44
c) People are called out from this field.
d) People are not called out from this field.
e) We are called out to be saints. (perfected) Rom. 1:7
f) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
g) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet. Rom. 8:9
h) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God at this point. (He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9

Phase 2

2) The sacrifice

a) The sacrifice of our life and will to God . (pisteuo)
b) Here , an act of Faith (or our surrender) is either accepted or not accepted by God.
c) No saving Faith at this point.
d) Alternative paths are created here to go around the sacrifice of our life and will to God. One is thinking we can just "believe in Gods Word" .
e) We still do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed in us yet.
f) Prayer and worship are still not acceptable to God , not His yet.

Phase 3

3) Testing ground or parable of the sower.

a) The Word of God or Christ is the seed.
b) The called out ones are the soil.
c) A grafting process begins to happen here.
d) A response starts to happen.
e) Paradoxical truths start to form here.
f) This is a proving ground.
g) Here , Christ is starting to be formed in our hearts by faith. (by the continual surrendering of our lives to Him)
h) Many daily decisions are made here that show God we really do believe God has taken the surrendered life and will that has been offered to Him.
i) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God yet. (because He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9
j) No saving faith here yet.
k) The Holy Spirit has not been sealed into us here yet.
l) Our surrender or offering to God is whats being tested here.
m) 3 out of the 4 accepted, surrendered , lives will fail and not move forward.

Unless "pisteuo' or the surrendering of our life and will to God has been fulfilled by us , and accepted by God , we can't move from the second phase to the third phase.

Most people understand that they are some how saved , sealed , and able to claim Christ and all his promises in between phase one and two. As you can see , alot has to happen in the Salvation journey. I have two more phases of my understanding of the Salvation journey yet to go , phases 4 and 5.

Any questions on the first 3 ? Any disagreements ?

What is the start of the drawing process? How does God draw men?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Acts 9: 11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

You are wrong on so many fronts it's hard to know where to begin.

Clearly the prayers of the murderer Saul of Tarsus were heard and acceptable to God immediately after his conversion.

Paul was considered a brother to Ananias immediately after his conversion and not just after some long testing to prove his worth.

Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit immediately with the laying on of hands (as are many other examples in scripture).

Paul preached the gospel with power from the very beginning of being filled with the Spirit. He didn't have to wait for Holy Spirit empowerment until he met some criteria such as you would like to lay on him.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

How on earth are we to confess our sins to him for forgiveness if our prayers are not acceptable to God until watchman 2 says they are?

"Cast all your cares on Him, because He cares about you." 1 Peter 5:7

How on earth are we to cast all of our cares on Him if our prayers and worship are not acceptable to Him until watchman 2 says they are?

He cares deeply for us and bids us come to Him for fellowship but our worship is unacceptable to Him?

Your view of salvation is flawed from the jump.

It is - in the end - a classic works oriented view of how a person gets saved. Your view of the salvation is condemned by all good theologians.

Certainly "salvation" in the comprehensive sense is a process which stretches from before the world began to our eventual glorification.

But one is "saved" in the basic sense long before they are sanctified in this life and glorified in the next.

"Saved" and related concepts are given by God to the saints in His Word in the past tense. They are not a future event for all those who have truly believed on Christ. They are a done deal.

You are "dead" wrong and close to being cursed for preaching a false gospel (which is really not a gospel at all when all is said and done) .

 

[watchman 2]

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[watchman 2]

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[Marvin Knox]

..................So if you don't agree with the order in which i have placed all the Biblical happenings , please present a new order to be tested.

Acts 10:” 44 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 19:” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

You say that the promises of God (including the Holy Spirit are not ours until after a time of testing. You are clearly scripturally wrong.

You say that our prayers and our worship are not acceptable to God until after your required salvation winning regiment. You are simply wrong about that.

You are attempting to show salvation to be only for those who have been found worthy of it.

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Salvation is a gift of God for those who were not and never will be worthy of it.

 

[sdowney717]

Salvation is a free gift, not something that you earn.
What we earn are the wages of sin which is death.
God simply makes us alive who were dead, poof! your alive.
The wind blows where it will. Whomever He blows on is made alive. Why should this take a long long time?
Why not in an instant, we are transformed spiritually, born from above by His word.

 

[watchman 2]

Acts 10:” 44 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 19:” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

You say that the promises of God (including the Holy Spirit are not ours until after a time of testing. You are clearly scripturally wrong.

You say that our prayers and our worship are not acceptable to God until after your required salvation winning regiment. You are simply wrong about that.

You are attempting to show salvation to be only for those who have been found worthy of it.

You couldn't be more wrong about that. Salvation is a gift of God for those who were not and never will be worthy of it.

What ever you think i'm wrong about , simply correct it by presenting "your own" understanding of the timeline of these happenings , or your understanding of the Salvation process.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What ever you think i'm wrong about , simply correct it by presenting "your own" understanding of the timeline of these happenings , or your understanding of the Salvation process.

I just did.

I showed with two simple passages that believers are given the Holy Spirit right away in the process and that the Lord hears their prayers right away and that the Lord receives their worship right away. All of those things go against the sequence you provided for us.

You are simply and clearly wrong.

You are now beginning to play the silly games for which your other two similar threads were famous. You cannot and will not get people (certainly not me) to play along with you by only posting what you want us to post.

Having said that - one time only - the salvation process (not at all inclusive) is roughly: election and predestination; providential control of circumstances in the life of the individual; general calling; specific calling and conviction; repentance and saving faith; justification and sealing with the Holy Spirit; ongoing filling with the Holy Spirit of God with the resultant sanctification process; judgment of our life in Christ; glorification and eternal communion with God.

 

[watchman 2]

I just did.

I showed with two simple passages that believers are given the Holy Spirit right away in the process and that the Lord hears their prayers right away and that the Lord receives their worship right away. All of those things go against the sequence you provided for us.

You are simply and clearly wrong.

You are now beginning to play the silly games for which your other two similar threads were famous. You cannot and will not get people (certainly not me) to play along with you by only posting what you want us to post.

Having said that - one time only - the salvation process (not at all inclusive) is roughly: election and predestination; providential control of circumstances in the life of the individual; general calling; specific calling and conviction; repentance and saving faith; justification and sealing with the Holy Spirit; ongoing filling with the Holy Spirit of God with the resultant sanctification process; judgment of our life in Christ; glorification and eternal communion with God.

All of the things i've specified under what i call phases , are things that have to happen through out the Salvation process. If "you" change the order of some of them (which you have) in which i've presented them, the order of other happenings change as well . So you need to start from the beginning at the drawing of the Father , and show us what "your" understanding of the order in which the specified happenings happen.

I know you won't want to use my template to explain yourself , so i'm looking forward to seeing the process through your eyes. You know, how it happened to you ?

 

[Marvin Knox]

All of the things i've specified under what i call phases , are things that have to happen through out the Salvation process. If "you" change the order of some of them (which you have) in which i've presented them, the order of other happenings change as well . So you need to start from the beginning at the drawing of the Father , and show us what "your" understanding of the order in which the specified happenings happen.....

Are you blind?

Good bye for now!

I may pop back in after a time if you manage to get a few other people gullible enough to play your silly games - which I doubt will happen having seen you try his same kind of ridiculous tripe on 3 threads now..

 

[watchman 2]

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[EmSw]

Phase 1

1) The world or the field.

a) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it.
b) The start of the drawing process begins. Jn 6:44
c) People are called out from this field.
d) People are not called out from this field.
e) We are called out to be saints. (perfected) Rom. 1:7
f) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
g) Not sealed with the Holy Spirit yet. Rom. 8:9
h) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God at this point. (He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9

Phase 2

2) The sacrifice

a) The sacrifice of our life and will to God . (pisteuo)
b) Here , an act of Faith (or our surrender) is either accepted or not accepted by God.
c) No saving Faith at this point.
d) Alternative paths are created here to go around the sacrifice of our life and will to God. One is thinking we can just "believe in Gods Word" .
e) We still do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed in us yet.
f) Prayer and worship are still not acceptable to God , not His yet.

Phase two is all about Pisteuo , "the surrendering of our life and will to God." At this phase , we make our surrender to Him , and he is going to make the decision to accept the surrendered life as genuine , (not perfect). Or , he will not accept the surrendered life because he deems it not genuine. So if He does not accept the surrendered life , that would keep us in Phase one until our surrender is acceptable. Pisteuo or faithing into Christ is two parts . One "A personal surrender to Him , and two , a life inspired by such surrender. " (Vines)
If we make the surrendering of our life and will to God , and then back it up with decisions that support and show God we are serious about the surrendering of our lives to Him , He will move us forward into the next phase of the journey. If we surrender our lives to God one day , and then turn around and every decision we are making on a daily basis is serving ourselves , not the decision to surrender our life to God , He will not accept the surrendered life as genuine and not move us into the next phase of the journey.

God is not a beggar on a street corner with cup in hand saying , "will you please believe in me." And at the second you put your "belief" in his cup , your saved for eternity , it just doesn't work that way . At this phase ,believing in Him and or His Word will produce nothing, because He and His Word are not ours to claim yet. The only thing available for us to do is to continually surrender our life and will to Him , and make the hundreds of decisions every day, showing God that it is not our life anymore but his now.


Phase 3

3) Testing ground or parable of the sower.

a) The Word of God or Christ is the seed.
b) The called out ones are the soil.
c) A grafting process begins to happen here.
d) A response starts to happen.
e) Paradoxical truths start to form here.
f) This is a proving ground.
g) Here , Christ is starting to be formed in our hearts by faith. (by the continual surrendering of our lives to Him)
h) Many daily decisions are made here that show God we really do believe God has taken the surrendered life and will that has been offered to Him.
i) No prayer or worship is acceptable by God yet. (because He's not ours yet) Rom. 8:9
j) No saving faith here yet.
k) The Holy Spirit has not been sealed into us here yet.
l) Our surrender or offering to God is whats being tested here.
m) 3 out of the 4 accepted, surrendered , lives will fail and not move forward.

Unless "pisteuo' or the surrendering of our life and will to God has been fulfilled by us , and accepted by God , we can't move from the second phase to the third phase.

Most people understand that they are some how saved , sealed , and able to claim Christ and all his promises in between phase one and two. As you can see , alot has to happen in the Salvation journey. I have two more phases of my understanding of the Salvation journey yet to go , phases 4 and 5.

Phase 4

4) The surrendered life or sacrifice is accepted here.

a) Here is the point where the surrendered life has been accepted.
b) Here , God seals the Holy Spirit inside us.
c) A Spiritual awakening happens here.
d) Dynamite power goes off here.
e) Gods nature begins to flow.
f) The kind of giving that can't be imitated starts to flow.
g) Saving Faith begins to be fulfilled.
h) Prayer and worship are acceptable now.
i) For the first time , He is in us , and we are in Him.
j) JUSTIFICATION STARTS HERE. (we are seen by the Father as just like Christ.)
k) Again , attempts to go around this accepted sacrifice , to no avail.


Phase 5

5) The product.

a) Here , God is producing faithers , that are responding with saving faith. ( continued daily surrendering of ourselves to Him.)
b) Here , a precondition has been met.
c) A continuous state of surrendering happens here.
d) The perfecting process is being perfected.
e) The mind of Christ has been given.
f) This is not a destination.
g) We should expect the Word or Christs nature to continuously flow through us.
h) Praying without ceasing happens here.
i) Sanctification has happened here. (separation from our sinful nature.)
j) Rom 7:14-21 is happening here. (Sanctification)


Any questions or disagreements need to be based on a solid understanding of you own experience. What that means is if you don't agree like Marvin lets say,you would need to provide a new understanding that can replace the understanding i have provided with the 5 different parts of the process. Just saying you don't agree , and throwing a Scripture at this won't fly. You need to present your own complete understanding of the process.

This process is worse than a homeless man trying to buy a house.

 

[Marvin Knox]

"Marvin Knox said in a previous post:

The salvation process (not at all inclusive) is roughly as follows:
a promise to the Son by the Father in eternity past

election and predestination by God of the individual with whom we are concerned;

providential control of circumstances in the life of the individual by God to bring what He has predestined to occur through our faith into a situation where His decree will come to past through our decision for Him;

a general calling by God through the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ;

a specific or effectual calling by God in the heart of the individual to bring about conviction;

repentance by the individual accompanied by saving faith;

justification before God coming through that faith;

a sealing with the Holy Spirit for eternity;

ongoing filling with the Holy Spirit of God as the person grows in the sanctification process;

the intercessory work of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

a judgment of our life in Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ;

the resurrection of the individual if that has not already happened in the rapture of the church;

ruling with Christ for a thousand years if the Millennium reign is taken literally;

the judgment of angels if that has not already occurred

eternal glorification in whatever form that may be if that has not been fully accomplished;

eternal communion with God - bringing Him glory because of His grace which He displayed in our salvation and will display toward us in the ages to come.

This is a rather basic display of the evangelical understanding of the salvation process - albeit given from a generally Reformed and pre-millennial viewpoint.

Only the Spirit of God Who has been my counselor from the first moment I believed knows why on earth I bother.