Before you vote on stem cells, read this...

[Darkhorse]

Recently in this political season, some celebrities afflicted with serious diseases have made advertisments supporting political candidates who favor Federal funding of embryonic stem-cell research. Since I have one of these diseases and have recently undergone major surgery related to this condition, as well as knowing something about biochemistry and the Bible, I thought some comments would be in order. Maybe some thoughts developed when looking at the ceiling in intensive care.

These political ads do not mention that stem-cell research is already legal, or that adult stem-cell research (which does not cost unborn lives) appears to be more promising than embryonic stem-cell research (which does cost unborn lives). While these ads suggest otherwise, all people of goodwill wish cures for those afflicted with these diseases and injuries. Although I have friends and family members who have suffered and died directly or indirectly from these conditions, I am not speaking for them, but for myself only; however, I do believe that my opinions and beliefs are shared by many people suffering with these conditions.

I'm not a celebrity, just an obscure guy with a wife and kids. Doctors recently found multiple severe blockages in several of my coronary arteries, caused by a combination of unfavorable family history of heart disease, and having had diabetes for 31 years. My lifestyle choices could have been better, but even a "perfectly healthful" lifestyle would probably not have prevented this damage.

So while spending 5 long days and nights in the local cardiac unit after coronary bypass surgery, from my random thoughts came one clear thought:

Every man-made hell-on-earth, past and present, has been predicated on these words:
"from this time forward, you will service us"

Science-fiction fans will recognize this phrase as coming from the Borg, the evil half-living half-machine race which conquers and assimilates every other race it encounters in the Star Trek Next Generation shows. Unfortunately, while the Borg are fiction, their philosophy is not. It lies at the root of all slavery, subjection, and dehumanization throughout history. The fact that some good came out of these societies based on evil does not negate the fact that the societies institutionalized evil until their downfall. And their downfall is inevitable, from the Egyptians, through the past and present African enslavements, the Nazis, the communist regimes, and many more too numerous to mention.

Would I like to be cured of diabetes and heart disease? of course, but not at the cost of innocent human lives. If medical science develops a cure or cures in my lifetime independent of a "slaughter of the innocents", great; if not, I am willing to lose my life to these maladies of my generation, rather than to be "serviced" by the sacrificed unborn of future generations. If one isn't willing to live for - and die for - their convictions, perhaps they're not convictions after all - just nice ideas.

These convictions would not be surprising coming from a lifelong Christian holding a lifelong pro-life position, but the fact is, I haven't always been pro-life. I was seduced by the world's description of illegal abortions and unwanted children. Besides, I was young and single, and I wanted to have fun, without the possibility of an unplanned child changing the course of my life. I believed contraception to be morally superior to abortion (and I still do), but I also supported the legality of abortion, and the superiority of existing humans to those under construction.

This pro-choice smugness started cracking when I saw the mid-term ultrasounds of my first son; he looked just like my wife, the woman I love more than life itself. This wasn't an "unviable tissue mass"; it was a baby, made in the image of my wife; no, made in the image of God. I had heard the baby's heartbeat in earlier visits to the doctor, but I knew that the heart is a tough, primitive organ that often continues to beat long after its owner has died in every other respect. Seeing his face was different; it made him "human" in a way nothing else had. My hardened heart started melting as I realized that all the world's unplanned, unwanted, and unborn were really babies, who began their existence when one man and one woman combined their genetic potentials in what should be a transcendental moment of profound physical joy and spiritual unification. I felt a tiny spark of the joy God must feel whenever one of his creations whom he made a little lower than the angels comes into existence through his gift of reproduction.

In the grand scheme of things, it does not matter whether I am ever cured of diabetes, or not. It does not matter whether I live another 50 days or 50 years. But it does matter that our conquest of diseases and injuries must not violate God's laws. The killing of innocent people is clearly and repeatedly condemned throughout the Bible. For those who cite the widespread annihilation of pagan cultures in the Old Testament, remember that God had already declared these cultures guilty, and marked them for destruction (ironically), for sacrificing their children in the worship of pagan gods.

Our Brave New World of the future must not be built on the bodies and souls of the unborn sacrificed to the humanistic gods of Knowledge, Choice, and Good Intentions. God's word tells us of the destruction awaiting those who take that route and fail to repent.

"...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15 NIV)

 

[WingsOfTheNeophyte]

Do you really think, embryos are killed, just so we can do research on them?

 

[kopilo]

I believe a human forms sometime between fertilization and birth, I agree that they could just go with adult steam cell research as well as other types of steam cells to research on.

The issue I have is when someone says they oppose all steam cell research, no matter if it is adult or embrionic. I'm sure you'll agree those people need to be educated.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

For those expecting children, be sure to inquire about cord blood donation - another source of stem cells.

 

[jayem]

I respect your honesty and sincerity.

But there are those of us, of equal honesty and sincerity, who would disagree that sacrificing a blastocyst by extracting stem cells is killing a person. A fertilized egg becomes a blastocyst after 4-5 days. At this stage, it is a ball of 100-150 cells. By definition, it is alive, and genetically human. But it's not a baby, and not even a fetus. At this moment, it simply is what it is--a mass of undifferentiated human cells. And under the conditions in which it is maintained, it can never develop into a fetus. Saying it's the same as a person is like claiming that a tiny acorn, kept in a jar, is the same as an oak tree. It's ignoring actuality, and focusing just on potentiality--and only a theoretical potentiality, at that.

The crux of the issue boils down to what is a person. "Person" in this context is a really a question of philosophy. Kind of like asking what is an adult. Biology can't give us an answer. It will ultimately be decided by societal consensus. Though I disagree with your opinion, I can understand it, and respect your right to hold it. And I hope you can understand and respect mine likewise.

 

[michabo]

Nothing like saving a blob of undifferentiated cells so that living, thinking, feeling adults may die.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Darkhorse are you the author of Post #1 or is this lifted from somewhere?

I can see a lot more similarities in the antiabort cohort to Borg than prochoicers. Prochoicers respect the individuals. Antiaborts demand of women "YOU MUST HAVE THAT BABY!"

 

[Exhausted]

Well, of course mid-term. Many pro-choicers advocate outlawing second trimester aborts, because they agree with what you said, bythen, it's a human. which is why it's currently up to individual states to legislate those. However, first trimesters are, in fact, just lumps of cells. Not people. Naturally, third trimesters are already outlawed barring medical emergencies.

Against seconds =/= against all, dude. Generalizing is not something anyone should be doing on this subject.

 

[Darkhorse]

Yes, I did write post #1, with lots of help from God.

Which will mean absolutely nothing to the agnostic and 5 athiests who have criticized me so far, but so what?
If we can't agree on the obvious stuff, like the existance of God, then how can we agree on the less obvious points?

Our main point of disagreement is where individual life begins. Before conception, we have no new individual, just 2 living halves of a potential individual. Once they combine, they undergo unique and irreversible changes which define a new individual.

 

[Exhausted]

Yes, I did write post #1, with lots of help from God.

Which will mean absolutely nothing to the agnostic and 5 athiests who have criticized me so far, but so what?

If we can't agree on the obvious stuff, like the existance of God, then how can we agree on the less obvious points?

You've been 'criticized' by three atheists, and no agnostics. In addition, my post was a valid point which totally negates your whole reason for being anti-choice.

 

[rambot]

I find it a bit ironic that the OP is DEAD SET against the "killing" of embryos for stem cell research and yet seems to have little to NO problem with science finding cures for diseases through trial and error with medicating hundreds upon hundreds of lab animals.
And here:

Would I like to be cured of diabetes and heart disease? of course, but not at the cost of innocent human lives. If medical science develops a cure or cures in my lifetime independent of a "slaughter of the innocents", great; if not, I am willing to lose my life to these maladies of my generation, rather than to be "serviced" by the sacrificed unborn of future generations.

The fact is that a "slaughter of innocents" HAS to happen DH.
It just has to.

No I'm not with PETA....not at ALL.

The killing of innocent people is clearly and repeatedly condemned throughout the Bible.

Well, could you provide examples of:
1) where it condemns the killing of "INNOCENT" people? REPEATEDLY?
2) where it states that an embryo (2 cells large) is a person?

There is a WORLD of difference between an embryo and a mid-term fetus.
If your wife looks like a zygote that has divided twice, I'd bet she's REALLY funny.

 

[Darkhorse]

You're right about the 3 athiests, but read post #2's signature - I'm still too tired to count.

I didn't say your point was invalid, just that we're much too far apart to find commom ground here.

 

[Exhausted]

Ah yes, my mistake. One agnostic it is. However, I don't see any reason we can't discuss this. In fact, I sorta agreed with your point, which is second trimesters shouldn't be aborted.

I just pointed out, a first trimester is not a second, as a young man is not an old.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yes, I did write post #1, with lots of help from God.

Thanks. It is a journeyman effort easily mistaken for somecolumn lifted from the blogosphere. Certainly more articulate than a lot that's out there. I disagree with its premise but I salute the effort.

 

[Silent Bob]

The OPer is forgeting a couple of interesting facts that make a world of difference:

A) Adult stem cell research has been much more extensive than embryonic one therefore it is natural that we have no cures from embryonic stem cells yet.

B) Embryonic stem cells have much more plasticity than adult ones.

C) NO innocent life that was ever going to be implanted in a uterus and would have the potential of developing is being used! And this is the most important issue. The embryos used for research whould end up in biohazardous waste REGARDLESS. It is this little fact that makes the pro-lifers seem as logical as those opposing organ donation and blood transfussion. People just don't understand that this is not an issue on fetal farming it never has been, this is an issue on the existance of a potential cure that people would rather see end up in the garbage.

There, I am a Christian and I dissagree with you. IF all embryos made for IVF where being used by the parents or adopted parents I would be behind you but they are not. If you want to stop folks from harvesting multiple eggs for IVF then this is a different story but until that happens lets take a few cells from fetuses before we through them out. Let us be logical about this and drop the appeals to emotions and Star Trek.

 

[LouTheWicked]

Nothing like saving a blob of undifferentiated cells so that living, thinking, feeling adults may die.

Ditto.

 

[DieHappy]

The issue I have is when someone says they oppose all steam cell research, no matter if it is adult or embrionic. I'm sure you'll agree those people need to be educated.

I've never in my life heard a person say he or she was against all stem cell research. I think you can usually ask 1 simple question and get a clarification that they are, in fact, only opposed to either fetal stem cell research or federal stem cell research.

Well, of course mid-term. Many pro-choicers advocate outlawing second trimester aborts, because they agree with what you said, bythen, it's a human. which is why it's currently up to individual states to legislate those. However, first trimesters are, in fact, just lumps of cells. Not people.

Please state the difference between 13 weeks and 14 weeks that makes the difference between "lump of cells" and "human."

 

[Vylo]

1. Embryos are not human beings.

2. Embryonic stem cells are pluripotent unlike adult stem cells, and therefore have more possible applications.

3. The embryos used are going to be destroyed anyway.

I will vote for funding for stem cell research and vote against any candidate who opposes it. I had a grandmother who was paralyzed from the waste down and a great grandmother with Alzheimer's. They might be still alive today if it weren't for people trying to block and hinder valuable, life saving medicine.

 

[Exhausted]

I've never in my life heard a person say he or she was against all stem cell research. I think you can usually ask 1 simple question and get a clarification that they are, in fact, only opposed to either fetal stem cell research or federal stem cell research.

Please state the difference between 13 weeks and 14 weeks that makes the difference between "lump of cells" and "human."

Please state the differnece between 'child' and 'adult'.

We draw up random ages to decide which of us are legally children and which are adults. We need do the same for embryos. It's even easier with embryos, because it's simply physical maturity, not mental. I couldn't tell you the exactings of embriotic developement. Not that educated on the subject.

Personally, I believe abortions should be allowed up to a week after birth.

 

[kopilo]

I've never in my life heard a person say he or she was against all stem cell research. I think you can usually ask 1 simple question and get a clarification that they are, in fact, only opposed to either fetal stem cell research or federal stem cell research.

Well I have and I even asked if that included adult steam cells, and they responded with "it doesn't matter, all stem cells".