Before you can follow Jesus

[Wordkeeper]

No, it's with those who take things out of context, or apply things that are not necessarily meant to be applied to them today.

If the Lord tells us, during a time of prayer or while we are asking his will for our lives, that he wants us to sell our house and move to Africa - fine.

But it's wrong to take verses out of context and assume they are to be applied to everyone today. There are many rich Christians around; fact.

I have been a Christian and follower of Christ for many years, he has never asked me to give everything away and become poor; fact. Many others would say the same.

The problem with your reasoning is that Jesus and other Bible authors very categorically preached against serving the world for money:

Matthew 2
14So he got up, took the Child and His mother by night, and withdrew to Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod.This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

John 6
27"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Matthew 6
23But if your vision is poor, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate theone and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despisethe other. You cannot serve both God and money. 25Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?

James 4
4You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God.

1 Kings 18
21Then Elijah approached all the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, follow him." But the people did not answer a word.

God tells us that serving the world for earthly riches is selfish living. He wants us to pick up our cross and follow Christ. which is selfless living, loving others. No greater love has a man than when he lays down his life for a fellow human being. Wait a minute, how will sacrificing yourself help some other soul?

Well, when a person makes a sacrifice, God uses it to resurrect him. That's how Rahab and Nicodemus were saved. They saw God’s great works manifested in those who picked up a cross and were " resurrected " and they turned away from the world to follow God. This is the best way to help others.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

God taught Abraham, Joshua, and Jesus this by creating problems for them, and then saving them. They learned obedience and began creating problems for themselves, so that when God saved, people would see God’s great works, and turn to Him. Of course salvation isn’t guaranteed, but God can’t be blamed, because He has done His part:

Psalm 78:32
In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Psalm 103:7
He made known His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.

Psalm 106:7
Our fathers in Egypt did not grasp Your wonders or remember Your abundant kindness; but they rebelled by the sea, there at the Red Sea.

Psalm 106:13
Yet they soon forgot His works and failed to wait for His counsel.

Psalm 106:21
They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt,

Matthew 11:21
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Where did I say that he did? I said he was called to stay and serve the Lord where ha was.

You haven't answered my Scriptural examples of people who were called to d just that.

What examples?

Taking up your cross means different things for different people.

When I was 17, had just become a Christian and wanted to leave school and my exams and go somewhere else to preach the Gospel, "taking up my cross" meant staying at school, taking, and hopefully passing, my exams and being ready for what God was calling me to do.

It seems like selfish living to me. There is no middle ground: serve God or serve mammon. Against Him or for Him. Gather or scatter. Be selfish or be selfless.

No; Ananais and Sapphira were free to do what they wanted with the money they got from selling their field, Acts of the Apostles 5:4. They "came a cropper" because they lied to the Holy Spirit - claiming the money they gave to the apostles was the full amount when it wasn't - NOT because they had money.

Everybody isn’t able to be resurrected! The act that kicks off the ministry is to give up all and follow Jesus! That's what A & S were trying to do, to get on the gravy train, without paying their dues.

Matthew 19
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife e or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Luke 12
22And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. 23“For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24“Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! 25“And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life’s span?26“If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? 27“Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 28“But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29“And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30“For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31“But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Luke 14
33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Luke 18
28Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

See these repetitive motifs in scripture:

1. The Kingdom of God is given to those who turn away from serving mammon for earthly treasure to serving God for treasure which never perishes.
2. The Kingdom is God manifesting His great works in a disciple’’s life, coming amongst him and his listeners through the Finger of God.
3. Perfection is completion, fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his Seed, by being His vessel to turn souls to Him, which is the greatest blessing you can give a person.

Simon the sorcerer thought that the apostles ability to heal was due to some power, or trick, that could be bought. when he was told it wasn't, he repented and asked for prayer, Acts of the Apostles 8:24. Again, nothing to do with having money.

Simon Magus wanted to manifest God’s great works without hearing God’s call, His voice, a call, to obey. When does God call? When TODAY comes. There was still a TODAY remaining. He still hadn’t learned obedience, the Way, which baptism kicks off.

1 Corinthians 10
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

Hebrews 3
14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. 15As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in therebellion.” 16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?

 

[Hammster]

That may be the way you explain that; Jesus doesn't say that a person has to be poor to follow him. He, himself, was supported financially by women, invited to people's homes to eat meals with them, and so on. He does not say that a rich person can never follow him.

Besides which, it it still true that the OP says that we should give away our wealth before we follow Jesus.
At best, that makes it sound conditional - "you can't follow Jesus UNTIL you have done this"; at worst, it sounds works based - "you have to DO something before you can follow."

Technically, you’d be following Him before you followed Him. So really, it wasn’t a condition but the first command that He gave him.

 

[Hammster]

He backs what he says with Scripture!

So does Joel Osteen and T. D. Jakes.

 

[Wordkeeper]

So does Joel Osteen and T. D. Jakes.

Well, at least they provide their interpretations. i didn't see Cliff doing that.

 

[Strong in Him]

The problem with your reasoning is that Jesus and other Bible authors very categorically preached against serving the world for money:

Matthew 2
14So he got up, took the Child and His mother by night, and withdrew to Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod.This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

?? That's got nothing to do with having money, selling your house, working without pay or anything else.
Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Egypt because Herod wanted to kill him - and this was prophesied in the OT.

John 6
27"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Which does not say that it is sinful to get a paid job.
When Jesus sent out the 72, he said that a worker deserves his wages, Luke 10:7. He told a parable about a man who hired servants and paid them, Matthew 20:1-15, the parable of the talents, Matthew 25:14-28 (a talent was money), and the parable of the shrewd manager, Luke 16:1-12. Jesus was supported financially by women, Luke 8:3 and Judas Iscariot was the keeper of their money bag, John 12:6.

Matthew 6
24No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate theone and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despisethe other. You cannot serve both God and money.

But serving money is very different to having money.

25Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?

Yes; don't worry about possessions, obsess about them or put them first before God - doesn't say we can't have any possessions.

James 4
4You adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore, whoever chooses to be a friend of the world renders himself an enemy of God.

It's perfectly possible to have a house, possessions, clothes etc and not be a friend of the world.

1 Kings 18
21Then Elijah approached all the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, follow him." But the people did not answer a word.

What's that got to do with it?
Baal was a fertility god and controlled the weather - so they thought. I am pretty sure Christians don't believe that.

God tells us that serving the world for earthly riches is selfish living.

No, Jesus said "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's".
He didn't say it was wrong to have, or earn, money.

He wants us to pick up our cross and follow Christ. which is selfless living, loving others.

Yes, and it's possible to live selflessly while having a home and money.
There are women who go without food so their kids can eat. There are people who give their bus fare to a beggar and walk home. Some people give something up and give the money they save to the poor. Some ask that, instead of birthday/Christmas/wedding presents, the money be given to charity. Some buy all their clothes from charity shops - and not just because they may be cheaper.

Well, when a person makes a sacrifice, God uses it to resurrect him. That's how Rahab and Nicodemus were saved. They saw God’s great works manifested in those who picked up a cross and were " resurrected " and they turned away from the world to follow God. This is the best way to help others.

I don't understand that at all.
Nicodemus went to Jesus to ask about the Kingdom of God. He also took Jesus' body down from the cross - but we don't know that he was "saved".

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

God taught Abraham, Joshua, and Jesus this by creating problems for them, and then saving them. They learned obedience and began creating problems for themselves, so that when God saved, people would see God’s great works, and turn to Him. Of course salvation isn’t guaranteed, but God can’t be blamed, because He has done His part:

God creates problems for people??
And he had to create problems for the saints, and Jesus, so he could save them and people would see how great he was??
Wooaaah!
God is perfect, Matthew 5:48. He is light and there is no darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5.
He doesn't create problems for mankind; he doesn't need to, we're quite capable of doing that for ourselves.

What has any of this got to do with not being allowed to earn, or have, money?

Psalm 78:32
In spite of all this, they kept on sinning; despite His wonderful works, they did not believe.

Yes - again, what has that got to do with money or possessions?
You know that when God delivered the Israelites from Egypt, he also gave them the treaure of Egypt; money, jewellery and other objects?

What examples?

The conversation was about becoming a Christian, selling everything and going overseas to preach the Good News. I gave you several examples of people who were called to stay where they were; the woman at the well, the man who had demons driven out from him.

It seems like selfish living to me. There is no middle ground: serve God or serve mammon. Against Him or for Him. Gather or scatter. Be selfish or be selfless.

Again, you can have money without SERVING it.
Use your money for good things; offer hospitality to overworked ministers, or free holidays to those who can't afford them. Fill two trolleys at the Supermarket, then push them to the nearest food bank. Adopt a child; support one, or several, overseas.

Or give up everything, live on the street in the clothes you are in at the moment, and see how much good you are able to do to others then. You won't; you'll become the receiver of someone else's charity.

Everybody isn’t able to be resurrected! The act that kicks off the ministry is to give up all and follow Jesus! That's what A & S were trying to do, to get on the gravy train, without paying their dues.

No they weren't; have you read Acts 5?

Matthew 19
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

You realise that Jesus said this to a young man who was very rich?
Jesus knew that his wealth was getting in the way and that he was serving it, so he told him to obey the commands about loving his neighbour. The man said that he did so - but did not refer to the first commandment about having no other go except the Lord.
That's why Jesus said "give everything up" - the man was serving, maybe even worshipping, money and it was getting in the way of knowing God.

This does not show it is wrong for a Christian to have money.

Luke 12
22And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. 23“For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24“Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! 25“And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life’s span?26“If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? 27“Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 28“But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29“And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30“For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31“But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Again, does not say we can't have a house, possessions or be paid for the work we do.

Luke 14
33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Doesn't mean we can't have a house, or get paid for work we do.
"giving it up" is not the same as "giving it away" - God might want to give it to him for his work or purposes.

See these repetitive motifs in scripture:
1. The Kingdom of God is given to those who turn away from serving mammon for earthly treasure to serving God for treasure which never perishes.

The Kingdom of God is wherever God is acknowledged as king.
Someone can live their life for him, serving him, living simply, helping others, letting their light shine and being salt for the world - and still have a house and a paid job.

2. The Kingdom is God manifesting His great works in a disciple’’s life, coming amongst him and his listeners through the Finger of God.

On one occasion, Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is among [ or within] you" Luke 17:21

3. Perfection is completion, fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his Seed, by being His vessel to turn souls to Him, which is the greatest blessing you can give a person.

No one can be perfect in this world; that's why Jesus came.

Simon Magus wanted to manifest God’s great works without hearing God’s call, His voice, a call, to obey. When does God call? When TODAY comes. There was still a TODAY remaining. He still hadn’t learned obedience, the Way, which baptism kicks off.

I think that's called, "reading into the text."

1 Corinthians 10
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Nothing to do with having a house, money or a paid job.

 

[JIMINZ]

He backs what he says with Scripture!

But he didn't write it , as you were so quick to point out about Cliff Richard!

 

[Wordkeeper]

But he didn't write it , as you were so quick to point out about Cliff Richard!

I accept views which are backed by Scripture. N. T. Wright did that. Cliff Richard didn't, 'kay?

 

[Wordkeeper]

?? That's got nothing to do with having money, selling your house, working without pay or anything else.
Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Egypt because Herod wanted to kill him - and this was prophesied in the OT.



Which does not say that it is sinful to get a paid job.
When Jesus sent out the 72, he said that a worker deserves his wages, Luke 10:7. He told a parable about a man who hired servants and paid them, Matthew 20:1-15, the parable of the talents, Matthew 25:14-28 (a talent was money), and the parable of the shrewd manager, Luke 16:1-12. Jesus was supported financially by women, Luke 8:3 and Judas Iscariot was the keeper of their money bag, John 12:6.



But serving money is very different to having money.



Yes; don't worry about possessions, obsess about them or put them first before God - doesn't say we can't have any possessions.



It's perfectly possible to have a house, possessions, clothes etc and not be a friend of the world.



What's that got to do with it?
Baal was a fertility god and controlled the weather - so they thought. I am pretty sure Christians don't believe that.



No, Jesus said "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's".
He didn't say it was wrong to have, or earn, money.



Yes, and it's possible to live selflessly while having a home and money.
There are women who go without food so their kids can eat. There are people who give their bus fare to a beggar and walk home. Some people give something up and give the money they save to the poor. Some ask that, instead of birthday/Christmas/wedding presents, the money be given to charity. Some buy all their clothes from charity shops - and not just because they may be cheaper.



I don't understand that at all.
Nicodemus went to Jesus to ask about the Kingdom of God. He also took Jesus' body down from the cross - but we don't know that he was "saved".



God creates problems for people??
And he had to create problems for the saints, and Jesus, so he could save them and people would see how great he was??
Wooaaah!
God is perfect, Matthew 5:48. He is light and there is no darkness in him at all, 1 John 1:5.
He doesn't create problems for mankind; he doesn't need to, we're quite capable of doing that for ourselves.

What has any of this got to do with not being allowed to earn, or have, money?



Yes - again, what has that got to do with money or possessions?
You know that when God delivered the Israelites from Egypt, he also gave them the treaure of Egypt; money, jewellery and other objects?



The conversation was about becoming a Christian, selling everything and going overseas to preach the Good News. I gave you several examples of people who were called to stay where they were; the woman at the well, the man who had demons driven out from him.



Again, you can have money without SERVING it.
Use your money for good things; offer hospitality to overworked ministers, or free holidays to those who can't afford them. Fill two trolleys at the Supermarket, then push them to the nearest food bank. Adopt a child; support one, or several, overseas.

Or give up everything, live on the street in the clothes you are in at the moment, and see how much good you are able to do to others then. You won't; you'll become the receiver of someone else's charity.



No they weren't; have you read Acts 5?



You realise that Jesus said this to a young man who was very rich?
Jesus knew that his wealth was getting in the way and that he was serving it, so he told him to obey the commands about loving his neighbour. The man said that he did so - but did not refer to the first commandment about having no other go except the Lord.
That's why Jesus said "give everything up" - the man was serving, maybe even worshipping, money and it was getting in the way of knowing God.

This does not show it is wrong for a Christian to have money.



Again, does not say we can't have a house, possessions or be paid for the work we do.



Doesn't mean we can't have a house, or get paid for work we do.
"giving it up" is not the same as "giving it away" - God might want to give it to him for his work or purposes.



The Kingdom of God is wherever God is acknowledged as king.
Someone can live their life for him, serving him, living simply, helping others, letting their light shine and being salt for the world - and still have a house and a paid job.



On one occasion, Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is among [ or within] you" Luke 17:21



No one can be perfect in this world; that's why Jesus came.



I think that's called, "reading into the text."



Nothing to do with having a house, money or a paid job.

You know, I've done this explanation several times, but I have the patience to show, do you have the patience to see?

Would you agree Rahab was saved, motivated to switch loyalty to God, which saves, because she saw God was with Joshua and Caleb?

 

[JIMINZ]

I accept views which are backed by Scripture. N. T. Wright did that. Cliff Richard didn't, 'kay?

You really didn't make that distinction though did you?

Just what is it you agree with or take away from what Mr Wright wrote?
How is it you explain what he said?
Mainly because he isn't in the conversation, and we cannot ask him to defend his position can we?

by N. T. Wright

Quote
The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

 

[Strong in Him]

You know, I've done this explanation several times, but I have the patience to show, do you have the patience to see?

Would you agree Rahab was saved, motivated to switch loyalty to God, which saves, because she saw God was with Joshua and Caleb?

Not exactly.
We know nothing about Rahab, what she believed or what religion she had followed. She, and others, had heard how the Lord had saved the Israelites from Egypt, dried up the Red Sea and saved them from their enemies. The people were scared of the Israelites because their God, the God of heaven and earth, was with them. She asked Joshua and Caleb to show her kindness and save her life and the lives of her families. She showed faith, Hebrews 11:31, but we are not told that she "switched", showed loyalty to God and started worshipping him.

Strange that I wrote a long reply to your post, answering various points; yet this is the only one you choose to pick up on.
Still has nothing to do with money, or whether people should get paid jobs.

 

[Strong in Him]

I accept views which are backed by Scripture. N. T. Wright did that. Cliff Richard didn't, 'kay?

As a Christian, I am certain that Cliff reads the Bible.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Not exactly.
We know nothing about Rahab, what she believed or what religion she had followed. She, and others, had heard how the Lord had saved the Israelites from Egypt, dried up the Red Sea and saved them from their enemies. The people were scared of the Israelites because their God, the God of heaven and earth, was with them. She asked Joshua and Caleb to show her kindness and save her life and the lives of her families. She showed faith, Hebrews 11:31, but we are not told that she "switched", showed loyalty to God and started worshipping him.

Strange that I wrote a long reply to your post, answering various points; yet this is the only one you choose to pick up on.
Still has nothing to do with money, or whether people should get paid jobs.

James 2:25
In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?

Matthew 1
5Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.6Jesse was the father of David the king.

Pull up your socks, mon!

The whole explanation, answering every point you raised and more, would be too much for you to bear all at once, so we'll have to give it a wee bit at a time. Still, you should have had your Weetabix, so get ready!

How are we with the first agreement?

 

[Wordkeeper]

As a Christian, I am certain that Cliff reads the Bible.

What verses did he quote in support?

 

[Strong in Him]

James 2:25
In like manner wasn't Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?

That doesn't actually say that she was saved and began worshipping God, does it?
She was in awe of God; yes. She believed that he helped those who trusted in him; yes. But was it this fear of God that prompted her to help Joshua, or a desire to save her own life?

Matthew 1
5Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse.6Jesse was the father of David the king.

She had a child who eventually married someone who gave birth to David; so?
David, and later Jesus, had many people in their family trees - some with faith, some not; some who walked with God, some who didn't.
I've no doubt that Rahab had heard of God and showed faith, and maybe even a desire to get to know him - but that is not quite the same as saying that she was saved and walked with him all of her life.
Note, James refers to her as Rahab the prostitute, not Rahab the one time prostitute and convert.

Pull up your socks, mon!

Rude or what?

The whole explanation, answering every point you raised and more, would be too much for you to bear all at once,

Patronising as well!

How are we with the first agreement?

I don't agree entirely that Rahab started to worship God and was saved.
Whether that is enough to move this, rather laborious and patronising, conversation along is up to you.

 

[Strong in Him]

What verses did he quote in support?

Read his autobiography.

 

[Wordkeeper]

That doesn't actually say that she was saved and began worshipping God, does it?

She was in awe of God; yes. She believed that he helped those who trusted in him; yes. But was it this fear of God that prompted her to help Joshua, or a desire to save her own life?

I think we can safely assume that Rahab believed God and her faith was confirmed by her work, since that is the message James was trying to convey. The assumption has stronger support than your assumption that God only wanted some people to stop serving mammon and start serving Him, indicated by giving up all the things they depended on for life, in spite of being shown the several texts teaching just that. What were they all, chopped liver?

She had a child who eventually married someone who gave birth to David; so?

David, and later Jesus, had many people in their family trees - some with faith, some not; some who walked with God, some who didn't.

I've no doubt that Rahab had heard of God and showed faith, and maybe even a desire to get to know him - but that is not quite the same as saying that she was saved and walked with him all of her life.

Note, James refers to her as Rahab the prostitute, not Rahab the one time prostitute and convert.

Apparently you don’t know, in spite of several texts teaching just that, that Jews can’t even eat with Gentiles, much less marry one. Rahab converted.

Rude or what?

Paul would be too, if you tell him that there’s no proof that Ishmael represented the Sinaitic Covenant. Yaaas, go on, pull the other one!

Patronising as well!

Paul would be too, if you keep on using baby talk. He too would bring out the feeding bottle.

I don't agree entirely that Rahab started to worship God and was saved.

Whether that is enough to move this, rather laborious and patronising, conversation along is up to you.

Okay, it’ll do, I’ll take that as a “yes”.

Would you agree that what made Rahab switch was that she knew Joshua and Caleb couldn’t have done what they did if God hadn’t been with them?

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”a

 

[Wordkeeper]

Read his autobiography.

Okay, I'll order from Amazon. Prolly get him to autograph it too, seeing we're from the same town.

 

[Strong in Him]

I think we can safely assume that Rahab believed God and her faith was confirmed by her work, since that is the message James was trying to convey.

If you say so.

The assumption has stronger support than your assumption that God only wanted some people to stop serving mammon and start serving Him, indicated by giving up all the things they depended on for life, in spite of being shown the several texts teaching just that.

No, God wants us to put him first in everything, he doesn't want us to serve money, money is not to be our idol or our god - end of. I have no problem with that at all; I'm even preaching on it tomorrow.
What I DO have a problem with is your view that people who have a house and a paid job ARE putting money first. Jesus and the early church spoke against the misuse of money, thinking that it, and possessions, are all there is in the world and putting both before God - maybe even mistreating people to get more money and temporary possessions that cannot save nor satisfy.

What were they all, chopped liver?

I have no idea what you mean by that comment.

Apparently you don’t know, in spite of several texts teaching just that, that Jews can’t even eat with Gentiles, much less marry one. Rahab converted.

They weren't supposed to marry Gentiles, but many of them did, especially the kings; that's why Israel had so many problems. Ahab married Jezebel, Solomon had 700 wives. Even Moses married a Midianite.

Paul would be too, if you tell him that there’s no proof that Ishmael represented the Sinaitic Covenant. Yaaas, go on, pull the other one!

You respond to a remark about your rudeness by continuing to be rude.
Incredible.

Would you agree that what made Rahab switch was that she knew Joshua and Caleb couldn’t have done what they did if God hadn’t been with them?

John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”a

I have no idea how you think that Rahab and Nicodemus are an answer to my statement that we can have a house, money and possessions and still serve God as committed Christians.
If you are able to give a direct answer, I may continue with this conversation. If not, if that last statement of mine is going to result in further rude and patronising comments that are way off topic; forget it. I have better things to do than to look for obscure connections in Bible verses that have been taken out of context, and then be criticised for not being able to see them.

 

[Wordkeeper]

If you say so.

You are going to accept it because I say so?

No, God wants us to put him first in everything, he doesn't want us to serve money, money is not to be our idol or our god - end of. I have no problem with that at all; I'm even preaching on it tomorrow.
What I DO have a problem with is your view that people who have a house and a paid job ARE putting money first. Jesus and the early church spoke against the misuse of money, thinking that it, and possessions, are all there is in the world and putting both before God - maybe even mistreating people to get more money and temporary possessions that cannot save nor satisfy.

It's simple. Do you believe you need money to survive? Yes or No?

I have no idea what you mean by that comment.

Does this verse mean nothing?

Luke 14
33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Are you reducing it to nullity, making it void, the unequivocal statement that those who have not given up all their possessions are not disciples of Christ?

They weren't supposed to marry Gentiles, but many of them did, especially the kings; that's why Israel had so many problems. Ahab married Jezebel, Solomon had 700 wives. Even Moses married a Midianite.

The conclusion, from studying the laws prohibiting marriage to non-believers, is that the marriage is not valid, that is, it was adultery.

You respond to a remark about your rudeness by continuing to be rude.
Incredible.

Your posts evoke that type response. Sometimes multi year experiences of learning are a single year learning repeated multiple times. Sad.

I have no idea how you think that Rahab and Nicodemus are an answer to my statement that we can have a house, money and possessions and still serve God as committed Christians.
If you are able to give a direct answer, I may continue with this conversation. If not, if that last statement of mine is going to result in further rude and patronising comments that are way off topic; forget it. I have better things to do than to look for obscure connections in Bible verses that have been taken out of context, and then be criticised for not being able to see them.

Because no one is going to leave Egypt, serving a secure source of living, like serving mammon, for a risky one, like following God, unless they know God is really supporting the project:

Exodus 4
1Then Moses answered, “What if they refuse to believe me or listen to my voice? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

2And the LORD asked him, “What is that in your hand?”

“A staff,” he replied.

3“Throw it on the ground,” said the Lord. So Moses threw it on the ground, and it became a snake, and he ran from it.

4“Stretch out your hand and grab it by the tail,” the LORD said to Moses. So he reached out his hand and caught the snake, and it turned back into a staff in his hand. 5“This is so that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.”
.....

Joshua 2
8Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, 9and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you. 10“For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11“When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.

In other words, God staged events so that people could see and be convinced to follow Him, to leave selfish living and start living selflessly, by laying down their lives, so that God could save them and thus motivate people to follow God too.

God kept on saving even after Israel left Egypt, from calamities He Himself created, so that the people would learn that the Good News could be seen, the Finger of God, the Kingdom of God, was in their midst. Now they could do stuff so that His great works would be manifested in their camp, and bless the world. But it involved loving others, because it required picking up their cross for the great work to be done, laying down their lives everyday, like Jesus laid down His life everyday, confronting the Pharisees, so that God could vindicate, save, resurrect...

Hebrews 4
1Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
......


Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. (in the wilderness)

....
Numbers 14
24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered,and his descendants will inherit it.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are going to accept it because I say so?

I'm going to accept that YOU believe that. I disagree, but for the sake of moving the conversation on, I'm letting it go.

It's simple. Do you believe you need money to survive? Yes or No?

Survive; no.
Live my current life with my commitments; yes.

Does this verse mean nothing?

Luke 14
33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

No, it means that we should give our possessions - along with our time, money, work, house etc to God. Everything we have comes from him; they are not ours to sling onto. If he tells us to sell them, give them away, stop work and live by faith; that's what we do.
But equally, he may say "o.k, I can use your house to give hospitality to strangers, or free holidays to those who can't afford them". Or, " the car you have just given me; I want you to sell it


and adopt a child overseas".
If all Christians sold all their possessions, they'd have nothing to live on - neither would their families. And other people would be so busy providing for THEM that they wouldn't give money to charity.

Are you reducing it to nullity, making it void, .

No.

the unequivocal statement that those who have not given up all their possessions are not disciples of Christ?

That's what the OP appears to be saying, that we should give up our possessions, THEN follow Jesus; the implication being that if we don't, then we aren't true disciples. That is what I am challenging.

The conclusion, from studying the laws prohibiting marriage to non-believers, is that the marriage is not valid, that is, it was adultery.

The Bible says that Ahab married Jezebel - not that he committed adultery by entering into an invalid partnership.

Your posts evoke that type response.

I'm sorry if I word things in ways that you do not understand, or with which you disagree.
But the decision to respond with rudeness is your choice.

Because no one is going to leave Egypt, serving a secure source of living, like serving mammon, for a risky one, like following God, unless they know God is really supporting the project:

If you're talking about the Hebrews, they were slaves; being ruthlessly oppressed, Exodus 1:7; Exodus 1:14. They didn't have a "secure source of living". They were desperate for God to elp them - Exodus 2:23; Exodus 3:9.

I still don't see how this is at all relevant to the questions; "should a Christians sell/give up all his possessions?" When the Hebrew slaves DID leave Egypt; God gave them gold, silver, jewellry and many possessions to take with them.

In other words, God staged events so that people could see and be convinced to follow Him, to leave selfish living and start living selflessly, by laying down their lives, so that God could save them and thus motivate people to follow God too.

?? So how did that work in the case of Moses then?
God performed miracles through Moses to show his power to his people, and to Pharaoh.
The people grumbled when they got to the Red Sea, and all the way through the wilderness. They did not say "we have seen God's power, we will trust him to provide food and water and protect us in the Promised Land." They didn't trust in God or believe what Joshua and Caleb told them; so they had to stay in the wilderness for another 40 years, until everyone except Joshua and Caleb had died.
Pharaoh didn't see God's power, leave his palace and followed him - he "repented" until the plagues had passed, then he changed his mind and refused to let the Hebrew slaves go. Even after the last plague, he sent soldiers after them to bring them back so they could be his slaves again.

God kept on saving even after Israel left Egypt, from calamities He Himself created, so that the people would learn that the Good News could be seen,

God created calamities just so that he could rescue his people from them??
That would be a bit like me setting fire to your house so that I could rescue you, become a heroine and get praise and awards.
I don't think I'd want a god like that.

Now they could do stuff so that His great works would be manifested in their camp, and bless the world. But it involved loving others, because it required picking up their cross for the great work to be done, laying down their lives everyday, like Jesus laid down His life everyday, confronting the Pharisees, so that God could vindicate, save, resurrect...

I'm sorry but, at the risk of further insults, I just don't see how any of this answers the question of whether a Christian has to sell all their possessions to follow Jesus. I don't agree with your interpretation, and don't even understand half of it.

My position, plain and simple, is that we are not to SERVE, or make a god out of, money. We are not to spend our lives trying to earn/steal/acquire possessions, money and stuff. Everything we have, and are, comes from God and is given to us to manage/care for as good stewards. If he tells us "giving it to me means giving it all away completely" - that's what we do.
But it is wrong to imply that anyone who has NOT done that, is not a Christian, or ready to follow Christ.