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Before the anti-Christ is taken out of the way, he must be put together, first

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Gottservant, Dec 26, 2019.

  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +348
    Messianic
    Hi there,

    So part of the counter-intuitive nature of Revelation is embellished here, as we look at the anti-Christ. Revelation says he has a number. What is important about this, is that it suggests that the anti-Christ does not answer to God, by name, but as we must imagine, by number. In a sense this is an expression of faith, that our shame is hidden from God, in a way that God would be pleased with, not individually: as a group - that is that the name of the man of sin, not be named among us (in the same way that Jews do not completely name G*d).

    The thing is that without a calling from God, it is not possible to reconcile what we would like to do, with what we know we must do. This creates a problem of interpretation. Do we assume the collective will get the job done? Or do we rely on someone with the relevant name, to do the bulk of the work? You see, then, that it is a denial of the calling in the absence of faith - as though God were at all standstill, in terms of what He has expected of the men He had created.

    But how does this relate to the taking away - that must come before the anti-Christ is revealed? There is an intermediate step, which is counter-intuitive to expectation of the anti-Christ making a name for himself (think about it, how does someone who is only concerned with a number, "make a name" for himself?): the anti-Christ must first be put together. This is the opposite of the statue in Daniel, that was destroyed with a rod of iron - the anti-Christ must put himself together, in order to make himself an answer, to the number of God (how else would the anti-Christ relate to God, if God defined him only as a number?).

    This is what the anti-Christ does: he takes things that were dead and re-energizes them, by putting them together and setting them with a mark, that the weakness of the death not interfere with the resurging, the resurging that the re-energizing brings. In reality, he will do this to himself and become a political standup, bringing the death of the nations around Israel, to life, in his intimation of a sacrifice. Biblically we can expect that God will judge them all combined: Israel and its neighbours.

    This isn't a warning to avoid the anti-Christ, so much as it is an explanation for why the faithful of Israel have to defend the honour of Israel, to the death: if the anti-Christ were to make of Israel a dead nation, that is, one that did not defend its honour against a tradition of men denying its form, Israel would be destroyed in a matter of decades, maybe sooner. But with the faithful laying down their live in the midst, the crack between number and name would begin to be clearer and the bias of the Devil against mankind sharing knowledge (remember that we said the anti-Christ would faithfully cover sin, thus creating a chance of not having to pay for it - the Devil is against even, that) would be made manifest, thus illuminating the path to Golgotha as the only way!

    Thus it takes a believer of maturity, not to offend the decision of God to number a man, for His purposes, but to stand in the breach that a good man (as we would dare to die for - letters) distance himself from the Devil, until he has learned to lead him, and by leading the Devil to lead all the lost - though at first it may seem that the lost will never turn to him again. This is the battle of the first resurrection, what it will be, for the anti-Christ to cease putting things together, by his own fledgling power - I say "power" cautiously, because it is a reservation that nature not know how to recover from sin, as makes the manliness in the man of sin seem welcoming (yet received, being a cruel curse that no further help is deserving).

    This then is the history of the anti-Christ: first without name, he doubted,, then he doubted names; second without a way to identify the things of the spirit (names), he betrayed, then he exhausted the root of betrayal; third without a way to identify the root of betrayal, he ceased to be able to understand the gospel, and unable to understand the gospel he disclaimed God's Judgment as above Man. So it is that Man sins, without knowing what his sinning is of; while yet Christ's equality with God, makes us coheirs of something greater than a gospel on its own - coheirs of a brotherhood of that gospel! The difference of what was dead but put together, versus what was spiritually dead but resurrected,, could not be clearer!

    What follows, is that the anti-Christ will attempt to distance himself, from the faith - as is fitting that the backward of Israel be crushed. He will try to do away with the faith, that is more broadly the will of God, than what he believes - in part he will succeed; what I am saying here is that the suffering he feels, to be denied power, makes him very much like a child that does not get his toy. On his own head, then, will his judgment come back on him - as Jesus said "I am laying a stone and whoever falls on it will be cut in two and on whomever it falls will be crushed to powder" (gospels, from memory). This logically leads us to Jesus' words in Revelation "I have this against you, that you have lost your first love" - the Lord will not allow the anti-Christ to single out the faithful forever: instead, the anti-Christ will come to sacrifice that which he had believed was "his" strength (for something greater, we pray,, specifically that he be able to prolong word - for if he can prolong word, on our commitment to lay down our lives, the enemy can be chased from the stronghold - as Daniel prophesies will fail (the stronghold will fail) for trust in fortresses).

    The time simply comes, that we lay down our lives, that word be prolonged (without the evil of the day able to follow it) - here! I say it, in the open!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
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  2. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    +4,948
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    When discussing about the antiChrist, timeline is important.

    The Beast is the Roman Empire. The same empire that fell and the one that replaced the former.

    Noting the "resurrected Roman Empire" manifested almost immediately after the fall of the original Roman Empire.

    Thus, the reign of the antiChrist, the Beast, and the Mark is already with us for thousands of years.

    You cannot buy or sell without it. It's simply money of the Roman Empire (same money we use today). Most Christians misunderstood this or viciously reject this angle. They wouldn't accept that it's money because if you possess money, you're doomed. Ironically, that's not what the the Bible says either. You have to go to the Greek translation....

    It specifically says those who have **eagerly** accepted the Mark (money). So not everyone with money is doomed but only those who has eagerly accepted money. In other words, they love money. Evident by their greed and using them mostly to please themselves.

    It plays right into the Luke 16:13 verse "You cannot serve two masters.... You will love one and hate the other..."

    Therefore, if you love money, you will hate God and if you hate God, you will hate Christ, thus, - the antiChrist! Because if you love money, you will spend more of it to please yourself, give yourself comfortable lives, than to use it for the Lord.

    It is what it is.... So now why we are not being persecuted by the antiChrist?? Chances are, you and me already work for the antiChrist.

    Only few knows the way to life, therefore, only few are persecuted by the antiChrist. Things go beneath our attention.

    The "Christ" most people worship is the corrupted truth of the real Christ...In other words, worshiping a fake Christ. Proof? The Doctrine that Jesus and the saints taught in the New Testament is different than the doctrine you know.
     
  3. civilwarbuff

    civilwarbuff Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Money has existed long before the Roman empire.....
     
  4. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Sorry, you started on the wrong foot and are still there. It is NOT the Antichrist that is "taken out of the way." It is the CHURCH that gets raptured and taken out of the way. No rapture for the Antichrist. He will be revealed AFTER the church is taken out of the way.
     
  5. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

    +348
    Messianic
    I am saying "from the anti-Christ's perspective" he must be "of a particular frame of mind" before the one who restrains him: is satisfied that he is ready to test the brethren, but not more.

    The anti-Christ does not want to be raptured, in the natural - not until he perceives there was power, in what he was being held back from.

    Do you see that this is compassion? That the anti-Christ be able to develop a motive?

    When the one who is restraining is taken away, so the anti-Christ will want to have been taken away (but because he is not granted that, he will complain and ask for something else)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,508
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    Tertullian of the early post-apostolic Church identified who was keeping antichrist at bay.

    History and prophecy proved him correct.


    ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV

    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."
     
  7. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I read an article connecting the fall of Constantinople with the Antichrist. Is this what you have in mind? Or is it the fall of the USA or the EU that some consider the new Roman empire?
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    The Antichrist will be SO FAR removed from the church he will not understand what happened to those who disappeared. He is the "man of sin" as Paul called him. He will no doubt a a great desire for POWER.
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,508
    Non-Denom
    Neither.

    The imperial Western Roman empire ultimately disintegrated into ten kingdoms, which correspond to the ten horns of Daniel 7:
    Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

    The little horn which emerged from these was the Papal Roman empire.

    It overthrew three horns:
    Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths

    The Ostrogoths were the last to be overthrown, in 538 AD, which marks the formal beginning of the Papal Roman empire. Its decline into apostasy over the ensuing centuries was ultimately recognized by the Reformers as identifying it as the predominant antichrist of its era.
     
  10. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But today the Pope doesn't rule the world?
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is certainly a legitimate question. He doesn't rule it as unmistakably as prior to the Reformation, and there seem to be more evident antichrists today e.g. Islam, Zionism. But we have no idea what unknown alliances exist, and it is entirely possible that the papacy still exercises ultimate control. Various Scripture seems to express or imply that as well.

    I'm still undecided, and need more time and evidence before reaching a conclusion regarding the identity of today's predominant antichrist.

    Scripturally, however, it must be recognized from John's epistles that multiple antichrists have always been present, and that there has not been, nor will there be, a single sole exclusive "The Antichrist".

    That is a dispensational delusion.
     
  12. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The idea that there will be no evil leader in the end times, is a preterist delusion, that is totally refuted by scripture:

    Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand. This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

    Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

    Isaiah 62:12 They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord….

    Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Zechariah 14:1-2

    Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

    These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age. Isaiah 62:1-5
    But the rest of the world will be under the control of one powerful man, eventually to be revealed as the Anti-Christ, actually controlled by Satan. Revelation 13:1-4
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here it was:
    The imperial Roman empire.

    What is your fourth kingdom?


    Here they were:
    Heruli, Suevi, Burgundians, Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks, Anglo-Saxons

    Who are your ten kings?

    You missed "...he shall subdue three kings."
    Here they were:
    Heruli, Vandals, Ostrogoths

    Who are your three kings?

    The apostate papacy exterminated millions and "wore out the saints of the Most High". (Daniel 7:25)

    Who is your candidate?
     
  14. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Fair enough.

    Actually, the following article shows that ancient Church Fathers expected a single sole exclusive "The Antichrist."

    Fr. Andrew J. Anderson. The Antichrist: an Orthodox Perspective from the Church Fathers

    What do you think?
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since John alone uses the term "antichrist(s)", and does not refer to a single sole exclusive "The Antichrist", then if the Church Fathers were not reflecting John's declarations, their own declarations were not entirely true to Scripture.

    However, if they understood their use of the expression "the antichrist" to be referring to a predominant antichrist of a future era without referring to a single sole exclusive "The Antichrist" of all time, then I would consider John's descriptions to encompass such an understanding.

    I believe that this was the understanding of the Reformers, who would have been aware of and familiar with John's descriptions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  16. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Fourth Kingdom is the one Daniel 7:23 describes

    The ten kings are the initial rulers of the ten world regions. As Revelation 17:12,
    3 of them will be taken over by another powerful man. Daniel 7:24

    The Papacy did kill millions of faithful Christians and their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
    Their names are Written in the Book of Life and they will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment.
    But the future, Satanically inspired Anti-Christ man, will kill millions more. But they have the special Promise of resurrection when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4

    Your gothic, etc, history just doesn't relate to what the Bible prophets say will happen. We await the future complete fulfilment of what is plainly stated to happen.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've provided the Scriptural and historical evidence that fueled the Reformation and its spiritual success, of which we are all beneficiaries.

    What evidence have you provided?
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

    +1,792
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    I provide what the Bible actually says.
    Which simply do not relate to the historical events of the past.
    As you try to show, there are some parallels, but the huge difference lies in the clear prophetic statement of; this time the whole world will be involved.

    What do you think will happen soon in the Middle East?
    Will Iran and their proxies attack Israel? They have the weapons to do it and their motivator; Satan will push them into it.
    What will be the result of their attack? Bible verses please.
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My Bible verses are confirmed by historical prophetic fulfillments.

    I'll leave the futurized fantasies to you.
     
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