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Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    I've learned long ago that the Holy Spirit helps me to decide if I'm truly guilty of 'arrogance' as some judge, or if I just have an 'assurance', they can't begin to imagine. :)
     
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  2. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    Even as bones (joints) are lifeless without the morrow. Very intimate indeed.

    But neither can morrow survive apart from the bone.

    chayah - "to live", causative - "to revive to life"

    Isaiah 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive<(chayah) the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

    Psalms 143:7 "Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit."

    Proverbs 15:4 "A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit."

    Proverbs 15:13 "A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken."

    Proverbs 17:22 "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones."

    Proverbs 18:14 "The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?"
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  3. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    So then, how do we understand Jesus words, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Luke 23:46

    And Solomon's words, "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecclesiastes 3:21

    God's spirit belongs to God. Jesus did not say to the Father, "into thy hands I entrust thy spirit...." Nor did Solomon say, "Who knoweth God's spirit in a man that goeth upward..."

    Each of us have a spirit of our own (of course nothing that we have didn't come from God in the sense that he creates and he sustains it) and God uses a man's spirit to know all about that man: "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly." Proverbs 20:27

    Our spirit is thus a record of who we are. When we die, whatever that record is of our spirit stands as the testimony of our works whether they were good or they were bad. When we have maintained a fine record we can confidently say as did Jesus, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit", knowing that through it God will remember us.

    Some believe we go to heaven when we die. And they use various things to justify that belief, such as the translation of Enoch, which we are told about at Hebrews 11:5

    I want to share a post with you I came across on page 9, post 168, of the thread, 'Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?':

     
  4. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I was aware of the scripture, but never really thought about it's "real" meaning. I have a much different context against which to apply it now than the last time I thought about it (decades ago).

    It's kinda like I had to get to a certain point where, one day, I realized that John 3:16, the most quoted verse in the bible, juxtaposes eternal life with an ending of life. I had to broaden my understanding of scripture and God to see the plain language.
     
  5. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we have that experience if we are humble enough to hold our former conclusions with a loose grip. It is a tendency caused of man's fall into sin that we see something we think makes sense and grasp it tightly being proud to now think we know. But the reality is that we learn in tiny little pieces which have to be held loosely enough to put those pieces together with other pieces as we discover them.

    We are spiritually dead long before we become physically dead. It does not matter that we have not literally physically died as yet for if we remain spiritually dead that is inevitable. And so we can accurately say we are dead even before physical death. That concept affects more views in the Scriptures than most of us realize even once we become aware of that spiritual death.

    We are not evil for at first seeing only what we believe. It is actually totally natural and a part of learning we need to be aware of so as to be willing to take that second and third look in the way of investigation rather than being so cock sure of ourselves.

    You obviously have that humility. And like myself you no doubt know that we need to protect that humility that we not lose it. (But I must admit I had to learn that humility the hard way. :) )
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  6. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Adam covers this nicely and entertainingly:
     
  7. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I am assuming that in referencing John 8:6 you see that Abraham saw by faith? Such as described here, as follows:

    2 Corinthians 4:18 "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

    Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
     
  8. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    That is a good watch! :)

    It sure strikes home. Get it? Strikes home?
     
  9. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    I got addicted to Adam's videos on Youtube. Sure, they are "biased" regarding how they present information, but you can see where they nail it. The one on Marijuana is quite enlightening. as is the one on hospital costs. and the wine one is a hoot.
     
  10. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like something I would enjoy viewing. I think I will go to Youtube and look it up.
     
  11. Almost there

    Almost there Well-Known Member

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    Adam Ruins Everything :)
     
  12. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    Which is why Jesus died on the cross. He willingly surrendered his spirit to the Father. Because 'death' had no claim on His body dying, because He never sinned. He died vicariously for ALL who have. And upon surrendering his spirit he breathed his last 'air' (Gr. expired). And when Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus;
    LUK 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once;

    Not 'the spirit of God', but 'her spirit' from God, which gave her life.


    This is what I correlate to 'my spirit' must be 'born-anew' or 'born from above'. But being 'reborn' does not mean it was dead, that would have been a resurrection. I don't think any spirit can 'die', for all spirits are eternal...IMO.

    As far as your story concerning Enoch is concerned, there's another story for Elijah, who also is 'according to orthodoxy' one who never died. But, he too was simply 'translated' somewhere else, because there is a letter attributed to Elijah in 1 or 2 kings (???) which was written 20 years after he left his mantle with Elisha. IOW, evey one who ever lived died with the possible exception of the apostle John. No historical record of his death. But a historical record of being dumped into burning oil, by a Caesar, and NOT DYING. Even the apostles thought he would live til Jesus returned. Hence the saying; 'The wandering Jew' has come through the centuries. And falsely applied to 'wandering JewS'.

    ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    This verse above is written 'to Christians'. While I agree with Almost there' that one must be saved to have immortality, I don't think being born again and saved in spirit, is the qualifying salvation to overcome the last enemy of 'mortal death' for the body/flesh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  13. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    It sounds as if we see it essentially the same. The thing is that it is really not proper to apply the word "death" to anything other than the person as a whole or their body. That is like the morrow apart from the bone does not survive but I cannot call properly it dead. I can properly say that a bone has died. This is why bones (or, joints) and their morrow are such a useful analogy for understanding the relationship between the spirit and the body.

    There in the case of Jairus' daughter, her spirit returning is also a way of saying she was fully restored to who she was before she took her last breath. But as you say, it is also her portion of the life God's spirit initially breathed into man so that man became, "a living soul."

    I have known many who think , and in fact used to make the mistake myself of thinking, that if Genesis 2:7 said that the breath of life God gave Adam made him come alive AS a soul, then without that spirit a man must be a dead soul. It took a long time for me to see that the word, "soul", in the ancient Hebrew perception does not ascribe to such a thing as dead souls. You sound fairly advanced in your understanding and so no doubt can appreciate that particular error. The "soul" is simply gone from man's ability to put it back together when any part of what constitutes it is taken away from it. But it is never gone from God's ability to put back together so as to restore life. And that is why we find at times the word "life" or "soul" can be interchangeably used in certain Bible texts.

    And yet we read: "To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine." Psalms 33:19 And so it sounds very much like there is such a thing as a dead soul. Revelation 16:3 "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

    Souls are spoken of as destroyed by the sword in the OT which merely means the body was separated from the critical component which imparts it its life and personality in whole. And Jesus said, "Fear not man who cannot destroy the body but cannot destroy the soul, but fear God who can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna." So there we see a different perspective used concerning destroying souls, which the OT shows many times over that man can do:

    Psalms 7:1-2 "O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver."

    Psalms 22:20 "Make my soul safe from the sword, my life from the power of the dog." (BBE)

    No wonder so many are confused concerning this subject. :)

    The thing is that dead and destroyed from man's perspective means that man can do nothing about it. From God's perspective it is easily restored to being whole again. Thus man cannot really destroy the soul. But God can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna as Jesus said. (Gehenna references the garbage dump which was located outside the city of Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom. Thus we can understand Jesus' words this way: "Fear God who can dispose of both the body and the soul in the garbage dump outside the city!")

    It seems there is no end to my typing errors! :) I had to make another few corrections.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  14. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    I don't think scripture is ascribing a similarity to 'the spirit and the body'. To me it is ascribing a similarity between the spirit and the soul but it is using the two body parts of joints/marrow to draw that analogy of their closeness.

    I still have a bit of a differing POV on what a 'living soul' means in Genesis. The following two paragraphs are just a copy/paste portion of a post of mine from another thread. I think it fits here to help see where I'm coming from. Main point though, is that I think the soul is simply the 'functioning of the brain' as it pertains to 'mind, will and emotions'. Or, the character aspect of a person as opposed to just the organic functions of a brain concerning physiology.

    In Genesis, Gods/Elohim made a body out of 'just created' dust of the earth. In that dirt was a non functioning brain needing the life of a spirit to function. The soul is the functioning brain/psyche (Greek Psuche) making up our mind, will, emotions. A soul that is led of the spirit is a person pursuing "after the likeness of God" and is a 'living soul'. A soul that is led of the flesh, is a dying soul.

    Adam started out being led of the spirit from the getgo. That's why he was a "living soul". And he remained 'a living soul' as long as he remained "walking in the cool/RUACH/SPIRIT of the day". How deceptive of translators to interpret RUACH as SPIRIT over 200 times....and as "cool" once. What carnal minded interpretation ever justified that? :doh:

     
  15. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 4:12 is just one of those places were "spirit" and "life" (soul) are used interchangeably. But James 2:26 is pretty clear.


    No. You are creating your own historical perspective rather than seeking the Hebrew perspective.

    Elohim is the plural of Majesty. Ancient Hebrew literature applies the title to singular human kings at times. It merely means, "Lord most excellent." You may have a point in the rest of what you say. I will have to toss it around in my head for a while. :)

    I do wonder about the ruach being translated "cool". I will check that out also. Thank you for the heads up.
     
  16. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    It is clear I agree, especially when one realizes that we are talking about the spirit which is providing 'zoe life' which is the 'animating life' force of the body. Whereas the soul provides 'zao life' or 'motivational life' force to the body. That is the 'I will' or 'I won't DO...such and such.

    MAT 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the 'living' God.

    The word "living" is 2198 zao: to live (lit. or fig.)
    Is 'zao life' the 'sustaining' life force, whereas 'zoe life' is the 'resurrecting' life force of God in/for Him/us?

    A perspective which lines up with scripture, doesn't have to line up with historical "precepts/ commandments of men".....IMO. ;)

    My studies have led me to believe that Elohim lines up with the plurality of the Androgenous manifestation of the creative triune Godhead. The same "Let US make man in OUR image". God wasn't referring to needing creative help from the angels, or anyone else in that verse. And it is the same "US" which said "now man has become like one of US". A comment spoken when there was communion with in the Godhead concerning experiential 'knowledge of evil' and Elohim's application to the creation.

    JOS 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

    AMO 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?

    JEHOVAH is the manifesting Masculine aspect of the Godhead, whereas EL SHADDAI was the manifesting Feminine aspect of the Godhead in dealing with 'their' creation.

    It's a noteworthy understanding IMO. But one must also note that the word "cool of the day" doesn't just mean they walked with God once in a while at the same time. We are talking about the 'day of man in Eden'. IOW it was 'the day' before sin which was like 'the day of the locomotive', which wasn't 24 hours either.

    Anyway, it all works for me.
     
  17. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    That seems quite reasonable. I need to look further into that but I believe you are right.
    I agree that the One True God needs no help in doing anything. But I do not agree that his saying, "Let US make man in OUR image", in any way supports that Jesus is God. The image being spoken of as "OUR image" is the way God unselfishly accords honor to those who honor him, considering them one in unity by their faithful loyalty born of his love of them and their love for him. That unity of love is God's most shining quality as he elicits love with love in all his works.

    The marriage arrangement shows that relationship is consigned of God's free will. It works and is as Paul said: ".... the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3b) The woman actually is the image of Christ in that scenario. And she and her husband are one (not literally but spiritually). And as God does what he does through his Son in honor of his Son, we men are counseled: "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." (1 Peter 3:7)

    Peter did not mean for us men to just praise our wives with easily uttered words. He meant to appreciate them fully as God does his Son, consigning honor to them by entrusting power and privilege to them (thus glorifying them) instead of trying to control them as if all things could only be done by ourselves. And Peter, just as all of the Apostles and Paul, drew that understanding from the relationship of Christ to his Father; to Christ's Father and our Father; to Christ's God and Our God. (John 20:17) That is what we are to be focusing on.

    When you said, "JEHOVAH is the manifesting Masculine aspect of the Godhead, whereas EL SHADDAI was the manifesting Feminine aspect of the Godhead in dealing with 'their' creation", you were right except for the use of the word, "Godhead", which is not even a word found in correctly translated NT texts.

    Acts 17:29 G2304 - theios - from 2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity) <-- As a quality. This should actually be translated as "divine being" or some equivalent of that as it is at 2 Peter 1:3-4 in both verses. If it were applied to you or i, then it could be translated, "godlike" as a quality but it more strictly means "divine" as a quality.

    Romans 1:20 G2305 - theiotes - from 2304; divinity (abstractly):

    Colossians 2:9 G2320 - theotes - from 2316; divinity (abstractly)

    Abstract = "expressing a quality thought of apart from any particular or material object [beauty is an abstract word]" Webster's College Dictionary

    The Trinity belief seeks to make concrete what is abstract. And I have not lied to you when i told you that the Hebrew word, "Elohim", is able to be found in many places in ancient Hebrew literature so that we do not have to guess at what it implies. It is the plural of excellence and nothing more. It is shear coincidence that it can be so construed to support a Trinity or Duality God. The name is unique to Jehovah as the One True God whom Jesus himself recognized both while on earth and yet now that he is back in heaven with his Father.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  18. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    OP: Q: Before Jesus came to (+ died in) the world, how were people "saved"?

    A: The same as today: spirit -led FAITH / BELIEF.

    Genesis 15:6
    Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.(unto salvation)

    Psalm 106:31
    And it was reckoned to him (Abraham) for righteousness, To all generations forever.

    Galatians 3:6
    Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

    James 2:23
    and the Scripture was fulfilled which says,
    “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,”
    and he was called the friend of God.
     
  19. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    I wasn't meaning to say that was supporting Jesus as God. Because I believe that when God created Adam there was no Jesus (son of man) yet. There was 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. And all three of those 'aspects' of God were pure spirit. For scripture says, even after the resurrection..."God is spirit".

    There was a point in my married life where I so much believed scripture that I quit praying because I knew I wasn't honoring her, because she wasn't submitted to me. Hmmm how un-Christ-like was 'that' attitude. :help: FYI, I did repent....finally. Just got tired of 'kicking against the pricks'. I always say; "You don't break the laws of God...they break you", and time is on His side. :idea:

    I agree. I think when scripture said God took a 'rib' out of creational androgennous ADAM (mankind) they should have used the "side" definition of that word instead of just a physical bone definition. Because women definitely have more of the 'feeling' nature of God, whereas men are more of the 'thinking' aspect of God. I've often been with my wife, walking into a situation, and I'm sizing up every one based upon my rational thinking. She comes to me and says I think you need to go talk to that person something is wrong. I 'rationally' look at them and say I don't 'see' anything. But I listen to 'her feelings' go and find out this person is in a life crisis. Together we minister as the more reprersentative fullness of God.

    We as humans try to use words meaningful to 'us' to try to explain, with 'Webster type words' that which is bigger than us I suppose. I certainly didn't mean to be implying anything more with my use of the Godhead. Your preferred definition still works for me in my commented use, I think.

    I can't disagree here BuzzB. It simply represents the sometimes limitlessness of language, which we must use to the best of our ability...and hopefully beyond our ability, with the help of the Spirit of truth'....should we 'hear' a more 'divine' application. :)
     
  20. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    You seem to me to be very humble and sound in your approach to things. That makes you a pleasure to converse with.

    I like the example you gave of attributing honor by listening to your wife as Abraham was told to do with Sarah. That is certainly the most important aspect of attributing honor for all else we did would merely seem to be just using them as slaves apart from that. It also makes me think of Jesus' treatment of his figurative bride when he said them, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." John 15:15 Along with that showing us how communication with a mate is very important, it also shows us that we most importantly need to care for to share the things of God with them as the "all things that I have heard of my Father" rather than just pushing to advance ahead of them spiritually at such a pace that it is as if we are not concerned for their spiritual advancement also.

    I have not been married a good many yeas now but was married for some twenty five years of my life. For me the problem is that learning these things now causes me to have to look back and realize I could have and should have been a far better husband. I don't know how it is for others, but I find myself looking back at my life shocked at the ignorance I have gone through. That God continues to help me learn very much shows me his mercy is great beyond measurement.
     
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